Jimmy Bartel

[Hodgepodge]

So as any AFL player "can" win the Brownlow, it is a meaningless award, notwithstanding only ONE players is awarded the medal, ditto Coleman medal, Norm Smith MVPA etc etc

Wtf? One player can win a medal, but that doesn't mean it's only available to one player . . .

 

[Mike Williamson]

Wtf? One player can win a medal, but that doesn't mean it's only available to one player . . .

Yeah, but most players don't have a chance in hell, so they are never in the running

 

[Hodgepodge]

Yeah, but most players don't have a chance in hell, so they are never in the running

It's usually down to a player in the AA team, although not always. Basically anyone from the top 40, except defenders.

 

[bulletproof]

Bartel is probably not as good as a player as is made out by us Geelong supporters and in the media. However, he always plays well in finals and against Hawthorn when we always beat them and people watch and remember these games. He has also won 70% of the games he has played, won three premierships, a brownlow, has a friendly looking face and is not covered in tattoos. He is just a guy people like.

It is probably not fair that Bartel will be remembered as a better player than Hodge and Mitchell but history is written by the victors and in 20 years people will just say, 'bloody hell they don't make footballers like Jimmy Bartel anymore, he was one of the best I ever saw. He always played well against Hawthorn'.

That is just the way it is.

 

[Mike Williamson]

It's usually down to a player in the AA team, although not always. Basically anyone from the top 40, except defenders.

Yeah maybe.

I've just gone through your posts in this thread and a few others, and I have 2 questions for you. Why is a Carlton fan so pro Hawks. Secondly, are you working your way through the Geelong list?

 

[cayze]

The majority of contested marks Buddy takes are the ones where he just cherry-picks over the top of a shorter opponent who was put on him in the first place because most taller defenders wouldn't be able to keep up with him aerobically. Franklin's stats are a result of the definition of what a contested mark is actually considered. The real contested mark kings are guys like Cloke, Petrie, Hawkins etc.

There's no seemingly good reason why Franklin couldn't have become a more prolific overhead mark, I think he is capable but it doesn't seem to be his style. Do you know if it was something the club ever tried to coach into him? Or were they happy for him to remain playing his own style?

Spot on. Just doesn't have strong hands overhead, not really something you can coach into him I don't think.

 

[Partridge]

Bartel is probably not as good as a player as is made out by us Geelong supporters and in the media. However, he always plays well in finals and against Hawthorn when we always beat them and people watch and remember these games. He has also won 70% of the games he has played, won three premierships, a brownlow, has a friendly looking face and is not covered in tattoos. He is just a guy people like.

It is probably not fair that Bartel will be remembered as a better player than Hodge and Mitchell but history is written by the victors and in 20 years people will just say, 'bloody hell they don't make footballers like Jimmy Bartel anymore, he was one of the best I ever saw. He always played well against Hawthorn'.

That is just the way it is.

It's perfectly fair; he's a better footballer. Mitchell has turned himself into an absolute gun by sheer hard work and has been Hawthorn's best midfielder for quite a while now. Hodge probably has more talent than either but just isn't professional or dedicated enough.

Either way, one of those three players named has not once, not twice, but three times played superbly in a Grand Final to contribute to his team winning a premiership. Playing three different roles too - attacking ballwinner in one, tagger in another, and lead up forward in yet another.

 

[mcuzzy]

love jimmy. he's not the running and posession gathering mid he used to and he looks a bit slower these days, but he still manages to do awesome stuff week in week out.

loves a bit of wet weather footy too, gets the sleeves out

 

[Hodgepodge]

Either way, one of those three players named has not once, not twice, but three times played superbly in a Grand Final

How does that prove anything? Bartel is the only player of those three who has even played in 3 Grand Finals. It's impossible to play well in 3 Grand Finals if you don't even play in them.

 

[Patty Healey]

This thread has lost all relevance thanks to the Lance Franklin argument. Take it to the Hawthorn board or create your own Lance Franklin thread if you want to talk about that.

 

[mcuzzy]

This thread has lost all relevance thanks to the Lance Franklin argument. Take it to the Hawthorn board or create your own Lance Franklin thread if you want to talk about that.

this!

 

[Patty Healey]

Bartel is an out and out superstar, a natural born footballer, gets the job done week in week out, fills the hole for his team wherever he is required, is selfless, modest and doest not hold a massive ego. He is, as previously mentioned the best 'Big Game' or 'Clutch' player in the league, this is not an opinion, but a fact. He has won that many games off his own boot it is ridiculous, even when he is having a quiet game it is always him that stands up and delivers.

Those that argue he is overrated are deluded, he is constantly underrated, especially by statsheet whores who think that possessions are always the main goal and determining factor of a player.

I love the bloke like most others do, he has had an amazing career and well done to him. Deserved to win a Brownlow, so glad he did. One for the good guys.

Good luck for the rest of your career Jimmy!

 

[mcuzzy]

Those that argue he is overrated are deluded, he is constantly underrated, especially by statsheet whores who think that possessions are always the main goal and determining factor of a player.

spot on. there are lots of roles that coaches give to players that are overlooked/not noticed.

 

[Chewy]

What is they say about us all creating our own individual realities?

I don't know mate, but you were definitely creating your own reality with this post below...

When I saw this thread this morning I knew it wouldn't be long before certain elements of the Hawthorn fraternity were in here talking Jimmy down, especially in relation to other Hawk players who are allegedly 'overrated'.

I assume you're lumping me in with Hodgepodge... I don't see any other people posting in this thread who could be a part of this Hawthorn "fraternity"

I think it's funny, slightly surreal, that a dozen or more Geelong fans have lumped us together and think we share the same views and started bagging me. See, the thing is, I was never talking Jimmy down. I said he was a very good player, possibly a champion, who always does his job, always plays well against Hawthorn, usually stands up in the big games, kicks the clutch goals in the last quarter. I said his match-winning impact on a game isn't always measured by the stats. I said he is very clever the way he milks free kicks for "in the back". I described his demeanour as businesslike and unflappable like Dunstall's. A quiet achiever. High praise.

I just said he was not a superstar - that some people go on a bit about him whenever he kicks a vital goal and they call him a SUPERSTAR. This is not "talking him down". How fricken precious can people be? WTF is with the Geelong fappers on here who take umbrage when other people are slightly more circumspect in their views.

I think Jimmy is now getting on a bit , maybe no longer as dynamic as he once was. Or maybe it's because he plays the sacrificial role in the team structure. I didn't think he was particularly good in 2012, just an okay season, nothing more. Mike Sheahan didn't even put him in his Top Fifty and the Big Footy tribe placed Bartel at #40 in their recent Top Fifty. So how can this be "overrated" ? You're just making shit up. People rate him just below Griffen, Swallow, Hayes, Goddard and Mundy. On a par with Gibbs and Dal Santo.

Hodgepodge and kidenobi were having an interesting debate, but when I saw some of KidKenobi's comments about how Bartel's low possessions don't really measure his impact and he questioned podgey's understanding of the game, I was gobsmacked by the hypocrisy. I remembered his constant vitriol towards Cyril Rioli over those EXACT SAME THINGS and felt compelled to point out his double-standards. What's wrong with me doing that? I never made any comparison between Bartel and Rioli. (I explained that twice to somebody.) I asked kidkenobi why he was so hypocritical about the value of stats.

 

[kidkenobi]

This thread has lost all relevance thanks to the Lance Franklin argument. Take it to the Hawthorn board or create your own Lance Franklin thread if you want to talk about that.

The thing about Bartel is, he has built his reputation from scratch. He's not flashy or freakish like Rioli or Ablett, he's not a freak athlete like Franklin, there's no obvious reason why you would have ever looked twice at him when he started his career. He's not particularly quick either, but he just does most things very well and reads the game brilliantly. Any superlative given to him is based only on what he has shown to be true throughout his career. His role has changed but his ability to read the game and impose himself at important times hasn't.

 

[barmy44]

f***s sake - opinions on football are subjective.

as much as some like to think they have it, there is no one objective truth.

we all like different players, and we all weight our favourites higher.

i can (and often do) make a pretty compelling argument that 'the beatles' is the greatest album of all time. and it is. but some people just dont like it. and to them, it isnt.

enough, please. its getting embarrassing - point scoring against anonymous individuals based on their team allegiance and 'value' of favourite players...

what is it about BF (or all internet forums) that makes total strangers hate each other based on a suburb or city under their username?

 

[kidkenobi]

Hodgepodge and kidenobi were having an interesting debate, but when I saw some of KidKenobi's comments about how Bartel's low possessions don't really measure his impact and he questioned podgey's understanding of the game, I was gobsmacked by the hypocrisy. I remembered his constant vitriol towards Cyril Rioli over those EXACT SAME THINGS and felt compelled to point out his double-standards. What's wrong with me doing that? I never made any comparison between Bartel and Rioli. (I explained that twice to somebody.) I asked kidkenobi why he was so hypocritical about the value of stats.

Firstly, Rioli plays a role where he is meant to be getting higher number than he currently does. If he's not kicking goals then he needs to be getting his hands on the ball, and often he doesn't do enough of either to justify the hype. He's a great player and he can make things happen out of nothing, but he often goes missing a lot in between. Varcoe had a few great moments in R1 against Hawthorn, and no doubt they were influential, but personally, I would be dissapointed if that was the extent of Varcoe's involvement in games for the rest of his career. I don't think it will be, but I wouldn't be pleased if it were.

You talk about Bartel's low possessions, his possessions aren't low, they're just lower than they were when he was a midfielder. Despite not playing midfield anymore, he has still averaged 21+ possessions per game for the last couple seasons while Rioli is at around 15. Bartel takes more marks and has more tackles/clearances.

I seriously doubt that most Hawk fans are satisfied with Rioli's output and consistency, surely you'd want him to do more and do it more often?

 

[Chewy]

Firstly, Rioli plays a role where he is meant to be getting higher number than he currently does. If he's not kicking goals then he needs to be getting his hands on the ball, and often he doesn't do enough of either to justify the hype. He's a great player and he can make things happen out of nothing, but he often goes missing a lot in between. Varcoe had a few great moments in R1 against Hawthorn, and no doubt they were influential, but personally, I would be dissapointed if that was the extent of Varcoe's involvement in games for the rest of his career. I don't think it will be, but I wouldn't be pleased if it were.

You talk about Bartel's low possessions, his possessions aren't low, they're just lower than they were when he was a midfielder. Despite not playing midfield anymore, he has still averaged 21+ possessions per game for the last couple seasons while Rioli is at around 15. Bartel takes more marks and has more tackles/clearances.

I seriously doubt that most Hawk fans are satisfied with Rioli's output and consistency, surely you'd want him to do more and do it more often?

We must be watching different games.

I guess we're all just hopelessly biased and see whatever we want to see

 

[Schauermann]

So as any AFL player "can" win the Brownlow, it is a meaningless award, notwithstanding only ONE players is awarded the medal, ditto Coleman medal, Norm Smith MVPA etc etc

An average fullback cannot win any of those awards (well perhaps a NS when switched forwards and kicks a bag). But a premiership...

 

[Vdubs]

Oh yeh....so big ffs. Just love umpires giving shit 50 metre penalties away....and the same thing got us a goal a few minutes earlier.

If only we could have umpires that we get on GF day instead of the rubbish I have seen this weekend.

Sam Newman may have lots of faults....but I never disagree with him when he starts on his umpiring rants.

Yep, we lost this today because we couldn't handle your pressure....but rest assured the gap between us and you is closing.

That is true, you beat us in this game last year, we closed the gap and opened up a tiny new one.

 

[Stockdale]

Bartel is so overrated its not funny.

Good player but when you have so many people fawning over him kicking a goal on the goal line its pathetic. Not to mention the fact he stuffed up by rushing the kick and giving North a chance to steal it with 20 odd seconds left on the clock.

Selwood, Chapman and Stokes won that game for the Cats.

 

[Stockdale]

Also the use of the word "Clutch" in our game is painful to listen to. Its bad enough hearing the yanks use that term over and over

Its not an adjective people!

 

[kidkenobi]

An average fullback cannot win any of those awards (well perhaps a NS when switched forwards and kicks a bag). But a premiership...

I remember when Scarlett was one of the hot favourites to win the Brownlow. He was so hungover from Mad Monday that he left and went home before the count finished. Barely got a vote in the end

 

[Chewy]

Bartel is probably not as good as a player as is made out by us Geelong supporters and in the media. However, he always plays well in finals and against Hawthorn when we always beat them and people watch and remember these games.

The only memory I have of Bartel's shizen game in the 2008 GF was his scrubbed kick from CHB straight into the chest of Sam Mitchell, who went back and kicked the sealing goal. A real premiership captain's goal.

he has a friendly looking face and is not covered in tattoos. He is just a guy people like.

And those dreamy eyes! Mmmmmmm

 

[Chewy]

* please give up on the best and fairests... no one gives a flying ****. Ranks lower than Toyota giving a car away mate.

No, you are dead wrong about this. Footballers treat their club's best and fairest as the most important and treasured individual award. Mainly because the people who give the votes are the true experts who know exactly what occurred in each game. The coaches know the real value of their performances. You see on the winners' faces how much it means to them when they get up to accept it and make their speech. They are flipping rapt, proud as punch... Many players have tears in their eyes.

The Brownlow is nice for those that win it - mainly because it opens the door for endorsement deals and fame after they've retired (media work, etc.) Sure it's the most hyoed and "prestigious", it's a big occasion, but the players don't really place much stock in the umpires' votes. It's lotto for the midfielders.

The Norm Smith is gravy - the premiership medal is what they played for. I don't reckon anyone ever felt dirty they played well but didn't win it. Chris Judd probably wouldn't care about his Norm Smith

All-Australian awards are just fluff for the players. Again, I'm sure it's nice to receive and they'd take it every time, but you can see from attitude at the awards ceremony, they don't really give a toss about it.

Winning the club best and fairest in a premiership season is the best individual award a payer can win. What could be better than winning the flag and your coaches voting you as the team's biggest contributor over the year?

If Bartel wins the Carji Greeves Medal this year & Geelong can win the flag, I reckon he will take more satisfaction from winning the B&F than winning the Brownlow