Coach JLo v RTB

[dominguez]

2013 was 7 years ago. The list falling in a hole 2016-2019 (arguably today) was the ultimate responsibility of the coach.

How can you blame the coach for list management issues when that's not his department? We fell in a hole because we burnt early picks on Apeness, Simpson, Sutcliffe, Sheridan, Pitt, etc. That's not Ross' fault.

 

[dominguez]

Maybe we were worse in the early 2000's. I just felt that there just seemed a lack of hope surrounding the team lately.

Ross came from the same Paul Roos school of thought that Longmire came from. Watching the Swans game of the weekend reminded me of the last four years. Bad memories.

We lost 5 straight games under Harvey after leading at three quarter time. That really illustrates the mindset of the group under Harvey.

 

[dominguez]

Maybe you just don't have the stomach for developing a team and/or influenced by preconceived ideas of coaches/football styles?

The Swans also had a lot of youngsters in over the weekend.

The next little period could be a golden opportunity for Longmuir. I reckon a power of the development work has been done across 2017-19 and he's got a squad that hopefully has had hard bitten grit and accountability instilled in them.

Should be really ready to go once he's had a chance to bed down his game plan and strategies over the season.

Definitely. Injuries to most of our talls compromises our 2020 season but we should make the 8 next year.

 

[Wigarus]

2013 was 7 years ago. The list falling in a hole 2016-2019 (arguably today) was the ultimate responsibility of the coach.

As for JLo, I think it’s fascinating how he can keep us competitive in games despite having blow out quarters go against us. He seems to keep a structure ahead of the ball no matter how badly things are going.

The largest turnaround for Freo in a game under Lyon was 23 points. Basically you knew that if we got four goals down in a Lyon game it was over. We either got pumped or had to settle in for a watching a boring slog as he limited the damage. I feel a lot more excited by footy now than I have in years.

You are one of the many on here that seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between coaching and list management / drafting.

The reality is that we made finals 3 times before Ross got here, so we had the best opportunity to add talent to our list if you believe that high draft picks = success.

We have a history of poor drafting and trading.

 

[Righteo]

How can you blame the coach for list management issues when that's not his department? We fell in a hole because we burnt early picks on Apeness, Simpson, Sutcliffe, Sheridan, Pitt, etc. That's not Ross' fault.

Agree that our drafting was rubbish but Sutcliffe was taken @ 71 and we extracted decent value from him initially.

 

[E Shed]

Sorry to burst the bubble but Lyons first team was made up of veterans, youngsters and a lot of foot soldiers. I thought Lyon did a wonderful job with the players he had.
He moulded the team to play to a game plan that suited his cattle. Lyon never had the top 10 draftees. He had Walters, Clancee, DeBoer, Clark,Sutcliffe ,Fyfe ,Tucker all medium to late to rookie picks and all of whom he turned into pretty good players.
Longmuir has had 4 or 5 years of top end young talent with probably 2 of the top veterans in the game with Fyfe and Walters to work with.
I can only think of 3 young draftees that where any good and drafted and left during Lyons period Neale, Crosier and Langdon.
I think this latest squad is a lot more talented than Lyons initial squad and I really hope Longmuir is the man to bring them to glory.

Lyon had -
Pav - our greatest ever
McPharlin - best key back in our history
Mundy in his prime - a great of our club
MJ - genius
McPhee - tough as nails
Ibbo - exceptional intercept defender
Hill - young, brilliant
Ballantyne in his prime
Crowley - one of the great taggers
Broughton - cool headed, brilliant defender
Fyfe - young but obviously special
Walters - see Fyfe
Sandi - one of the most influential rucks to ever play the game
Barlow - the most prolific, ball winning rookie of all time who could hit the scoreboard
Grover - one of best defenders ever
Duffield - best kicker in our backline ever
Young Morabito - admittedly not for long

as well as decent cannon fodder like Mzungu, Clancee, DeBoer, Van Berlo

Thats at least 18 players who would all start in our current team (and some do)
Not too shabby.

 

[Wigarus]

Lyon had -
Pav - our greatest ever
McPharlin - best key back in our history
Mundy in his prime - a great of our club
MJ - genius
McPhee - tough as nails
Ibbo - exceptional intercept defender
Hill - young, brilliant
Ballantyne in his prime
Crowley - one of the great taggers
Broughton - cool headed, brilliant defender
Fyfe - young but obviously special
Walters - see Fyfe
Sandi - one of the most influential rucks to ever play the game
Barlow - the most prolific, ball winning rookie of all time who could hit the scoreboard
Grover - one of best defenders ever
Duffield - best kicker in our backline ever
Young Morabito - admittedly not for long

as well as decent cannon fodder like Mzungu, Clancee, DeBoer, Van Berlo

Thats at least 18 players who would all start in our current team (and some do)
Not too shabby.

Pretty selective memory there.... Ross Lyon was crucial to some of those players becoming the players they were ie Walters and Crowley. And Grover, McPhee, Morabito all played less than 1 season under Lyon.

Regardless, they were all rookie or late picks and Pav and Hill are basically the exceptions that prove the rule.

 

[Seppo]

We lost 5 straight games under Harvey after leading at three quarter time. That really illustrates the mindset of the group under Harvey.

I've had those games blocked from my memory for a long time... Reading this just hit me like PTSD.

 

[E Shed]

Pretty selective memory there.... Ross Lyon was crucial to some of those players becoming the players they were ie Walters and Crowley. And Grover, McPhee, Morabito all played less than 1 season under Lyon.

Regardless, they were all rookie or late picks and Pav and Hill are basically the exceptions that prove the rule.

Sure, that was the 2010 list but he lost a few and gained others.
The point is he didn't have a list of hacks that he miraculously turned into worldbeaters. He had some seriously good players.

I was watching a game from that era recently and was amazed how many really good players we had running around.
Just having McPharlin, MJ, Sandi, Kepler and Pav is a pretty amazing start.
Ibbo, Duffield and Spurr in the backs
Mundy, Fyfe, Barlow & Hill in the middle with Dan Pearce & Mzungu running through & Crowley/DeBoer running block, Neale getting up to speed.
Walters and Ballantyne down forward beside Pav.
That's quality.

 

[Wigarus]

Sure, that was the 2010 list but he lost a few and gained others.
The point is he didn't have a list of hacks that he miraculously turned into worldbeaters. He had some seriously good players.

I was watching a game from that era recently and was amazed how many really good players we had running around.
Just having McPharlin, MJ, Sandi, Kepler and Pav is a pretty amazing start.
Ibbo, Duffield and Spurr in the backs
Mundy, Fyfe, Barlow & Hill in the middle with Dan Pearce & Mzungu running through.
Walters and Ballantyne down forward beside Pav.
That's quality.

He had a list that had played in 1 finals win and 1 finals loss. That is a fact.

 

[salim malik]

Lyon had -
Pav - our greatest ever
McPharlin - best key back in our history
Mundy in his prime - a great of our club
MJ - genius
McPhee - tough as nails
Ibbo - exceptional intercept defender
Hill - young, brilliant
Ballantyne in his prime
Crowley - one of the great taggers
Broughton - cool headed, brilliant defender
Fyfe - young but obviously special
Walters - see Fyfe
Sandi - one of the most influential rucks to ever play the game
Barlow - the most prolific, ball winning rookie of all time who could hit the scoreboard
Grover - one of best defenders ever
Duffield - best kicker in our backline ever
Young Morabito - admittedly not for long

as well as decent cannon fodder like Mzungu, Clancee, DeBoer, Van Berlo

Thats at least 18 players who would all start in our current team (and some do)
Not too shabby.

Go through the list now of top 10 draft picks That Longmuir has.
Quality that Lyon never had.
Also Mcphee , Broughton , Grover, Mora Van Berlo had limited game time .
Crowley, Walters Clancy were all on the delist table and Lyon resurrected them.
HILL, Mundy, Fyfe and Walters are still on the list.

 

[E Shed]

He had a list that had played in 1 finals win and 1 finals loss. That is a fact.

I'm not sure what your point is but I suspect we're arguing at cross purposes.
My point is he had a damn good list to work with.
Your point seems to be he's a good coach and I don't disagree.

 

[E Shed]

Go through the list now of top 10 draft picks That Longmuir has.
Quality that Lyon never had.
Also Mcphee , Broughton , Grover, Mora Van Berlo had limited game time .
Crowley, Walters Clancy were all on the delist table and Lyon resurrected them.
HILL, Mundy, Fyfe and Walters are still on the list.

I'm never going to try and argue Lyon wasn't a great coach.
I just think its disingenuous to say he had some list of hacks and tryers. He had some bloody good players.
We all know draft position doesn't always equal talent.
The 2013 team was superb. A few honest tryers but some all time greats too.

 

[Wigarus]

I'm not sure what your point is but I suspect we're arguing at cross purposes.
My point is he had a damn good list to work with.
Your point seems to be he's a good coach and I don't disagree.

I understand you think it was a good list, you support this team and clearly overvalue everything that goes along with it. The bottom line though is that when rubber meets the road it only was capable of winning more than losing in 3 separate years of the entire history of the club before Lyon got here. So if all you have to look at is the facts, the facts are that it was not a good list.

You loved them but that doesn't mean they were winners.

 

[Sully90]

Sorry to burst the bubble but Lyons first team was made up of veterans, youngsters and a lot of foot soldiers. I thought Lyon did a wonderful job with the players he had.
He moulded the team to play to a game plan that suited his cattle. Lyon never had the top 10 draftees. He had Walters, Clancee, DeBoer, Clark,Sutcliffe ,Fyfe ,Tucker all medium to late to rookie picks and all of whom he turned into pretty good players.
Longmuir has had 4 or 5 years of top end young talent with probably 2 of the top veterans in the game with Fyfe and Walters to work with.
I can only think of 3 young draftees that where any good and drafted and left during Lyons period Neale, Crosier and Langdon.
I think this latest squad is a lot more talented than Lyons initial squad and I really hope Longmuir is the man to bring them to glory.

I really feel like you think I'm trying to be antagonistic Lyon when I'm not. I've already said I was a massive fan of Lyon. But you're interpretation of where the respective squads are at is revisionism to the extreme. If we look at 2016 as the starting point then the only top 10 talent from that those drafts is:

Griffin Logue: 22 years old, 23 games played before Longmuir
Andrew Brayshaw: 20 years, 39 games
Adam Cerra: 20 years, 41 games
Hayden Young: 18 years, 0 games
Caleb Serong: 18 years, 0 games
Liam Henry: 18 years, 0 games

You're telling me Longmuir should have as good a first 4 years as Lyon because of these 5?

Finals are made through the efforts of your 24-28 year old age bracket, and from our current group Longmuir has one superstar (Fyfe turning 29 this year) and I guess two other players playing good consistent football (Aish, Ryan). The rest are a mix of the unproffessional (Hogan, McCarthy,) the inconsistent (Matera, Hughes, Blakely), and the eternally injured (Acres, Lobb, Hamling, Pearce). Compare that to Lyon's group and he had a large group ready to hit their peak. Yes alot of them were foot soldiers, but they were foot soldiers who had already put in alot of time and development and had played good football for Freo prior to Ross arriving.

 

[E Shed]

I understand you think it was a good list, you support this team and clearly overvalue everything that goes along with it. The bottom line though is that when rubber meets the road it only was capable of winning more than losing in 3 separate years of the entire history of the club before Lyon got here. So if all you have to look at is the facts, the facts are that it was not a good list.

You loved them but that doesn't mean they were winners.

McPharlin, MJ, Duff, Ibbo, Sandi, Mundy, Fyfe, Hill, Barlow, Pav, Walters, Ballantyne, Crowley, Mayne, Neale, Crozier, DeBoer, Bradley
18 players that are or would start in most AFL teams today.
That was 2013.

 

[The Heartbreaker]

How can you blame the coach for list management issues when that's not his department? We fell in a hole because we burnt early picks on Apeness, Simpson, Sutcliffe, Sheridan, Pitt, etc. That's not Ross' fault.

It was fairly obvious the cupboard was bare as early as 2014 when few younger players were breaking into the side. The coach bears ultimate responsibility for on field performance, he should have been asking questions of his list management for why talent was thin beyond the best 25.

 

[The Heartbreaker]

You are one of the many on here that seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between coaching and list management / drafting.

The reality is that we made finals 3 times before Ross got here, so we had the best opportunity to add talent to our list if you believe that high draft picks = success.

We have a history of poor drafting and trading.

Ross had been around long enough to know that the failures of list management ultimately risk the career of the coach.

 

[The Heartbreaker]

He had a list that had played in 1 finals win and 1 finals loss. That is a fact.

That 1 finals win had 10 first and second year players. It was absolutely brimming with potential, yet to be realised. It was younger than the side we put out on Saturday.

 

[Wigarus]

McPharlin, MJ, Duff, Ibbo, Sandi, Mundy, Fyfe, Hill, Barlow, Pav, Walters, Ballantyne, Crowley, Neale, Crozier, DeBoer, Bradley
17 players that are or would start in most AFL teams today.
That was 2013.

You can't count the best year they ever had, while Lyon was a coach as a reason that the list was good before he got here. Clearly, by wins and losses which is the most basic criteria you can measure by, the team that he inherited had an overall losing percentage historically.

You have the same problem as a lot of fans here that are all of a sudden happy with our current season because we had an inspiring romantic win against the odds this week. Unfortunately, individual wins, just like Longmuirs kick after the siren are worth absolutely nothing if the overall context of the season ends with more losses than wins and no chance at the ultimate prize.

Call it wasted talent, not enough commitment, call it whatever you want before Lyon got here. They might have had the capacity and proven it in your eyes by winning a home final but when it comes to actually doing it, they failed way more often than they succeeded.

 

[E Shed]

You can't count the best year they ever had, while Lyon was a coach as a reason that the list was good before he got here. Clearly, by wins and losses which is the most basic criteria you can measure by, the team that he inherited had an overall losing percentage historically.

You have the same problem as a lot of fans here that are all of a sudden happy with our current season because we had an inspiring romantic win against the odds this week. Unfortunately, individual wins, just like Longmuirs kick after the siren are worth absolutely nothing if the overall context of the season ends with more losses than wins and no chance at the ultimate prize.

Call it wasted talent, not enough commitment, call it whatever you want before Lyon got here. They might have had the capacity and proven it in your eyes by winning a home final but when it comes to actually doing it, they failed way more often than they succeeded.

I'm still not sure what it is you're arguing. I have no problem with Lyon being remembered as a great coach.
Are you arguing that the players he coached were not that good and he overachieved with them?

 

[Sully90]

Call it wasted talent, not enough commitment, call it whatever you want before Lyon got here. They might have had the capacity and proven it in your eyes by winning a home final but when it comes to actually doing it, they failed way more often than they succeeded.

That's all true but then you can apply the same logic to the list that Longmuir inherited before he got here.

 

[Kram]

Calling it now, this thread will end up being 100+ pages long.

 

[The Heartbreaker]

I'm still not sure what it is you're arguing. I have no problem with Lyon being remembered as a great coach.
Are you arguing that the players he coached were not that good and he overachieved with them?

Anyone who saw how the team played in 2010 knew the raw talent was pretty good. Every single debut that year was another pleasant surprise at a player slotting in seamlessly, into a side that was motoring on quite well. Some didn’t make it (eg Crichton, Bollenhagen) but those who did (Fyfe, Barlow) were stellar.

 

[Wigarus]

I'm still not sure what it is you're arguing. I have no problem with Lyon being remembered as a great coach.
Are you arguing that the players he coached were not that good and he overachieved with them?

I think maybe I'm / we're getting hung up on lists vs teams. I mean we can list 18 players on the list now that could potentially make a grand final but it comes down to the whole list over a full AFL season. Cherry-picking stars out of a line-up doesn't get it done.

I mean you could go get a list of 17 Gold Coast players and say they are premiership worthy but it doesn't make it true. It's a weight of numbers over an entire season.