Coach John Longmire - Part II

What should we do about the coaching situation?

  • We should sack Longmire before his contract is over and bring in someone new.

    Votes: 31 34.1%

  • We should allow Longmire to see out his contract, but we should definitely not give him a new one.

    Votes: 18 19.8%

  • We should allow Longmire to see out his contract, seeing how he goes before offering a new one.

    Votes: 33 36.3%

  • We should extend Longmire's contract beyond its current duration.

    Votes: 9 9.9%
  • Total voters
    91

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Number37 said:
What will you judge a new coach on?
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I'd judge a coach by what I always have: what they get out of their players. That's how I look at every coach in the competition.

The ratio of players that are above/below standard, both the standard of AFL level and their personal standard. If you have a list scattered with talent but many of your players aren't playing at or close to their best, then the coaching could be an issue. Conversely, if you have a list with SFA talent but that manages to pull together a handful of wins, play with some guts, have career best seasons etc., then the coaching should be applauded.

This is why I am firmly on the fence with Horse, and why I'm in neither camps (the "sack him" camp, and the "but his record..." camp). On the one hand, you and I have gone toe to toe before over the fact that I think he's misdirecting certain players and others could potentially be even better if used differently, and you've disagreed with that. But on the other hand, I saw what he did with that group of players on either side of 2012, and how he turned a lot of players with limited athletic abilities into a cohesive, well-oiled team unit that won a heck of a lot of games and a flag. So I'm left with the conflicting ideas... maybe he'll replicate his efforts from seven years ago but with this bunch... or maybe these just aren't the right group of boys that he can get the best out of him, maybe this is his limit.

The fact we've had two consecutive seasons where we've looked like both the best team in the comp and the worst team in the comp in the one year has not helped with this limbo feeling.
 
caesar88 said:
I'd judge a coach by what I always have: what they get out of their players. That's how I look at every coach in the competition.

The ratio of players that are above/below standard, both the standard of AFL level and their personal standard. If you have a list scattered with talent but many of your players aren't playing at or close to their best, then the coaching could be an issue. Conversely, if you have a list with SFA talent but that manages to pull together a handful of wins, play with some guts, have career best seasons etc., then the coaching should be applauded.

This is why I am firmly on the fence with Horse, and why I'm in neither camps (the "sack him" camp, and the "but his record..." camp). On the one hand, you and I have gone toe to toe before over the fact that I think he's misdirecting certain players and others could potentially be even better if used differently, and you've disagreed with that. But on the other hand, I saw what he did with that group of players on either side of 2012, and how he turned a lot of players with limited athletic abilities into a cohesive, well-oiled team unit that won a heck of a lot of games and a flag. So I'm left with the conflicting ideas... maybe he'll replicate his efforts from seven years ago but with this bunch... or maybe these just aren't the right group of boys that he can get the best out of him, maybe this is his limit.

The fact we've had two consecutive seasons where we've looked like both the best team in the comp and the worst team in the comp in the one year has not helped with this limbo feeling.
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It's been more than 2 years that we've looked like the best and worst team in the comp in the same year.
The one thing that is really noticeable about the criticism levelled at Horse/the game plan is that credit is never given to opposition teams for doing such a good job and completely breaking down our game plan. Opposition usually put the most work into trying to break down the game plan of the best teams.
 
Number37 said:
It's been more than 2 years that we've looked like the best and worst team in the comp in the same year.
The one thing that is really noticeable about the criticism levelled at Horse/the game plan is that credit is never given to opposition teams for doing such a good job and completely breaking down our game plan. Opposition usually put the most work into trying to break down the game plan of the best teams.
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It's obvious though that the credit should be given to the other teams. The winner of any match has always done a good enough job at shutting down the opposition's game plan. But it then falls back to our coaching staff to improve our game plan and make it harder to shut down.
 
bedford said:
Or they come to an agreement . They really want Stewie Dew for the job.
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Seems very odd to me, Stewie Dew contracted elsewhere after Horse's contract was extended... heck of a way to show you really want someone!
 
Tedeski said:
No doubt if Horse has a bad year eyebrows will be raised. I think what he does have in his favour is that we have aggresively turned over our list from tbe 2016 GF list & he has created the next generation of talent, knowing full well he is unlikely to be at the helm when these guys like Heeney & Mills are peaking. I am confident we can make an impact in season 2019 & that won't happen if Horse has lost the players so time will tell. As for Stewy Dew, I cant see him leaving GC for another two years which coincides with the end of Horse' contract so it makes sense that there may well be an agreement already in place as you say Bedders.The Swans, since Eade, seem to have implemented a very honest system where people tell each other where they are at for the greater benefit of the club & that honest day may very well have come for Horse. Who really knows but John Longmire has been at our club long enough to know when to put his hand up & say "do you think I'm the right person for the club in 2020? If not then let us get the club ready to strike under the next coach". Now that is making an assumption but it is more realistic in the club's more recent history than it would be that Horse would move on in more hostile circumstances.

Our recent history would suggest that we would have already appointed Horse' successor, perhaps someone like Dew as Bedders has heard, & Horse has another job waiting for him elsewhere at a certain point in time. It would make sense that it would happen either at the end of season 2019 if it goes pear shaped between coach & players but more senseart the end of Horse' contract after 2020. That would be smooth, that is the way of the new age Swans. The up front & honest system would suggest that this process has already been put in place judging by some other movement. Shaw to North for example suggested to me at the time that perhaps Horse was North bound, something that would make all the sense in the world. Horse has very, very strong connections at North & my money would be on him becoming the next coach of North Melbourne after Scott is done.

Not directing this at you Bedders but when posters who want some credibility on here continuously roll out that I am a yes man for Horse it gets a little embarrassing for them because I've always stressed that nothing that will destabilise the club should ever be put in place. Calling for a coach to be replaced with a few years to run on his contract is not what we want. We want to see a smooth transition, but in the mean time we want to see tge current coach preparing the club's list for the next era, now if we can remain competitive while that happens then he has done his job. Horse has done his job. He's made errors but every coach does.
So I again see season 2019 as one where we will be competitive as would be expected by the club, with the potential to challenge for the flag if things go right fior us, but should it fail badly, i have no doubt that there is a mutual agreement in pkace , as Bedders has suggested, that Horse will move on. I feel though that he will see out his contract until season 2020, where no doubt the club believes tgat with him we can still challenge for a p'ship in his final two years as coach.

Now I can cope with that any day of the week over the embarrassment that Carlton & other clubs, inclyding us in the past, have dished out when sacking coaches mid term.
Just my general thinking how I would like our club to handle coaching appointments, after years of embarrassment in the old days. Give me a succession plan ala Roos to Longmire anytime & it will give stability.
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I’m not so sure the club would be willing to part with their main man. I have doubts about the part where you mention the smooth transitioning being important in preparing the list’s next generation. I can see the logic in avoiding an upheaval up top and how that could impact the youngsters. But I can also see the validity that if Horse is not going to be the guy deemed worthy of being at the helm in two or three years time, then he shouldn’t be at the helm, when the core of our next generation are in their crucial development years. I’m not saying he should be sacked, but if the club was to “agree” that someone else would be needed to take the next gen to the promised land, what would be the point in keeping Horse around? Make the kids spend another two years under a coach the club obviously don’t see being around when they enter their primes? It wouldn’t make any sense.

That’s why I believe the club will stick by Horse and have him lead the next generation, not just prepare them. Why would we commit to such a rebuild if we were just going to get rid of our coach mid-way through it?
 
caesar88 said:
I’m not so sure the club would be willing to part with their main man. I have doubts about the part where you mention the smooth transitioning being important in preparing the list’s next generation. I can see the logic in avoiding an upheaval up top and how that could impact the youngsters. But I can also see the validity that if Horse is not going to be the guy deemed worthy of being at the helm in two or three years time, then he shouldn’t be at the helm, when the core of our next generation are in their crucial development years. I’m not saying he should be sacked, but if the club was to “agree” that someone else would be needed to take the next gen to the promised land, what would be the point in keeping Horse around? Make the kids spend another two years under a coach the club obviously don’t see being around when they enter their primes? It wouldn’t make any sense.

That’s why I believe the club will stick by Horse and have him lead the next generation, not just prepare them. Why would we commit to such a rebuild if we were just going to get rid of our coach mid-way through it?
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I think that if we should make the eight this year and next, then the only way Horse will go will be by choice. No matter how much we talk about what the club wants or the players want, Horse will not be replaced with an untried unknown entity simply for the sake of change. There is simply nothing in their recent management history to indicate that they would behave that way...

I see what you are saying about the kids, but that is his job. He is paid a fortune because his role is extensive. Selecting, preparing and coaching the youngsters would be just as important as coaching the best 22 to the finals. Everything I've read indicates that he is excellent with the kids, all except for, dare I say it??? Yep, you guessed it, Titch! :eek::rolleyes:
 
Kirkswan said:
I think that if we should make the eight this year and next, then the only way Horse will go will be by choice. No matter how much we talk about what the club wants or the players want, Horse will not be replaced with an untried unknown entity simply for the sake of change. There is simply nothing in their recent management history to indicate that they would behave that way...

I see what you are saying about the kids, but that is his job. He is paid a fortune because his role is extensive. Selecting, preparing and coaching the youngsters would be just as important as coaching the best 22 to the finals. Everything I've read indicates that he is excellent with the kids, all except for, dare I say it??? Yep, you guessed it, Titch! :eek::rolleyes:
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Haha yeah Mitchell the oddity!

It is his job and in fairness it can't be stated enough how good Horse is at shaping and moulding these kids to be ready for senior footy and look comfortable at the level. I think he more than anyone is responsible for us having a list of talented youngsters not a whole lot unlike the freakishly elite list of youngsters GWS had in their early years. But that part of his job is done now. They're all Swans now and he now has to elevate them from impressive youngsters to quality best 22 blokes that can keep us competitive and eventually make us contenders.

I would be confident with trusting Horse to oversee their transition from youngsters to mature stars, but it's hard to be confident when you're dealing with an unknown. Because of the way our list has panned out, which I'm happy about, we will be a very different looking Swans team after 2020, if we're not already. Horse hasn't had the luxury of having lots of classy blokes like Florent, Aliir, Heeney, Blakey, Hayward etc. all at once, and so there's no real track record to go on in terms of how he can get the best out of those types. It's sort of unknown how he will go, which makes me apprehensive about the idea.
 
caesar88 said:
Haha yeah Mitchell the oddity!

It is his job and in fairness it can't be stated enough how good Horse is at shaping and moulding these kids to be ready for senior footy and look comfortable at the level. I think he more than anyone is responsible for us having a list of talented youngsters not a whole lot unlike the freakishly elite list of youngsters GWS had in their early years. But that part of his job is done now. They're all Swans now and he now has to elevate them from impressive youngsters to quality best 22 blokes that can keep us competitive and eventually make us contenders.

I would be confident with trusting Horse to oversee their transition from youngsters to mature stars, but it's hard to be confident when you're dealing with an unknown. Because of the way our list has panned out, which I'm happy about, we will be a very different looking Swans team after 2020, if we're not already. Horse hasn't had the luxury of having lots of classy blokes like Florent, Aliir, Heeney, Blakey, Hayward etc. all at once, and so there's no real track record to go on in terms of how he can get the best out of those types. It's sort of unknown how he will go, which makes me apprehensive about the idea.
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Just pre-season nerves mate, we'll be great! Believe it :D:p
 

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caesar88 said:
Haha yeah Mitchell the oddity!

It is his job and in fairness it can't be stated enough how good Horse is at shaping and moulding these kids to be ready for senior footy and look comfortable at the level. I think he more than anyone is responsible for us having a list of talented youngsters not a whole lot unlike the freakishly elite list of youngsters GWS had in their early years. But that part of his job is done now. They're all Swans now and he now has to elevate them from impressive youngsters to quality best 22 blokes that can keep us competitive and eventually make us contenders.

I would be confident with trusting Horse to oversee their transition from youngsters to mature stars, but it's hard to be confident when you're dealing with an unknown. Because of the way our list has panned out, which I'm happy about, we will be a very different looking Swans team after 2020, if we're not already. Horse hasn't had the luxury of having lots of classy blokes like Florent, Aliir, Heeney, Blakey, Hayward etc. all at once, and so there's no real track record to go on in terms of how he can get the best out of those types. It's sort of unknown how he will go, which makes me apprehensive about the idea.
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Horse getting the credit for shaping kids? but when the players play defensive rubbish and make error after error its not his fault?

He coaches the flair out of these kids more than anything.

His gameplan could be written on a post it note, big year for horse, last year he looked past it
 
The King! said:
Horse getting the credit for shaping kids? but when the players play defensive rubbish and make error after error its not his fault?

He coaches the flair out of these kids more than anything.

His gameplan could be written on a post it note, big year for horse, last year he looked past it
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FWIW I totally agree with the first paragraph.

I talk about his faults as much as anyone and have copped plenty of flack. I think he’s just as responsible for our errors and faulty game plan as he is responsible for shaping these kids into mature, disciplined footballers before their times.
 
I came here to read something different.
Nope........................same s**t.
At least let the season begin FFS so he CAN actually do something new wrong.
He's our coach for the next two years whether you like it or not so get over it.

He is one of 17 coaches that can't coach based on the 2018 season.
Only Adam Simpson can coach if you all want to get down to the nitty gritty.
 
Tedeski said:
I came here to read something different.
Nope........................same s**t.
At least let the season begin FFS so he CAN actually do something new wrong.
He's our coach for the next two years whether you like it or not so get over it.

He is one of 17 coaches that can't coach based on the 2018 season.
Only Adam Simpson can coach if you all want to get down to the nitty gritty.
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How dare the supporters want the team to be better!
 
Tedeski said:
Some of us just want to see the season start before we go off insanely about his coaching ability.
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Tedeski - I do not think anyone is going off insanely about Horse, one way or the other. Hopefully I hope you are reading posts in the 'best 22' thread. The discussion is wide ranging, civil and balanced. Every poster is handling debate well and offering sensible rationales for their views (even when I think they are all wrong, except me of course - am joking of course).
 
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