Johnson and Lockyer

[Invigoration]

So much hate for 2 players that have served us well over the years. Johnno was twice runner-up in our b+f.

David Teague won a BnF as well, who gives a shit.
Doesn't change the fact Johnson is a shit footballer who personifies the reason we haven't won a premiership in so long.

All the sentimental shit needs to be thrown to the wind when discussing the team going forward, it is completely irrelevant to make note of how a player has "given everything" in the past when assessing the best team for the future.

God forbid we don't all sit around circle jerking over the commitment the players have shown in playing for the black and white, while we sit back and pay their triple figure salaries.

In saying that though, no-one rubbished Lockyer and I doubt they would. He has been a great servant to the club, but I don't see why it is taboo to talk about his spot in the team simply because he is a veteran of the club?
Johnson isn't up to the standard, never has been and never will be. I don't see the point in sugar coating my view on the matter simply because he has had a prolonged career thanks to MM.

 

[Buena]

There are plenty of knives out for Ben Johnson. As someone said earlier, he was in top form and the best condition of his career, at the start of this season. Then he broke his leg, but it is a testimony to his fitness that he was able to come back and contribute later in the year.

If a young kid is able to show some form, and deserve to be in the side ahead of tarks or johnno, then thats great. If not, then lets not call for blood just yet.

 

[Dylz48]

Both are still in the best 22 atm IMHO. Lockyer was top 5 in all the major stats this year and personally thought he had a great year untill he tappered towards the end of the year although a lot of our players did. As for BJ I thought he contributed pretty well last year sure there were a few hands in your heads moments but with BJ you expect that.

 

[King Woodie]

Completely agree

By 2010 finals Macaffer should have cemented his spot in the side, pushing Lockyer out

I personally see Barham as the replacement for Johnson...Very quick and much more hard at the ball than BJ would ever dream to be...its a shame he cant kick though*sigh*...play as a tagger perhaps?

Johnson is alot of things, but soft certainly isn't one of them.

 

[Heater39]

What role do you think he will be/should be playing for us in 2010, if in our best 22.

Either Half back or tagger, as we don't really have anyone else.

David Teague won a BnF as well, who gives a shit.
Doesn't change the fact Johnson is a shit footballer who personifies the reason we haven't won a premiership in so long.

All the sentimental shit needs to be thrown to the wind when discussing the team going forward, it is completely irrelevant to make note of how a player has "given everything" in the past when assessing the best team for the future.

God forbid we don't all sit around circle jerking over the commitment the players have shown in playing for the black and white, while we sit back and pay their triple figure salaries.

In saying that though, no-one rubbished Lockyer and I doubt they would. He has been a great servant to the club, but I don't see why it is taboo to talk about his spot in the team simply because he is a veteran of the club?
Johnson isn't up to the standard, never has been and never will be. I don't see the point in sugar coating my view on the matter simply because he has had a prolonged career thanks to MM.

Fair enough, I simply disagree. I think he's good enough, so long as he's the 20-22nd player and we're not playing Johnno, Toovs, barham etc all in the same team.

 

[smiddaz123]

Either Half back or tagger, as we don't really have anyone else.

Care to throw out a good tagging job he has done recently, or a forward he has stitched up?

 

[Heater39]

Care to throw out a good tagging job he has done recently, or a forward he has stitched up?

Judd. I know he's not a great tagger but I'd take him over Toovey or Cook anyday. Otherwise he's played some ok games on the wing as well, kicking some handy goals.

 

[smiddaz123]

Judd. I know he's not a great tagger but I'd take him over Toovey or Cook anyday. Otherwise he's played some ok games on the wing as well, kicking some handy goals.

That's one single example, and that wasn't him alone. It was Thomas also.

We don't have to play a tagger for the sake of it. If we don't have a good tagger, we don't play one. Simple. The bolded is exactly why we shouldn't play Johnson as a tagger.

Also, you said he had some ok games on the wing, but you previously said he'd be either a tagger or a half back in our best 22 in 2010, due to his supposed good form. So far, you've managed to throw up one game where he has shown reasonable form lately in either of those two positions.

I remain unconvinced.

 

[Scodog10]

While both have been great servants of the club i really think that it is time to move on... From the side that came up against Geelong in the prelim there will be a minimum of 4 changes, we need to find room for Jolly, Ball, Pendlebury, Fraser and I would put N. Brown into the mix as well. So at best they would only be depth players imo.

You also have to be realistic and realise that they more than likely won't be part of our next premiership so they would just end up taking away games, that we could be putting into the youngsters. It may be harsh but i would prefer to see a Blair or J. Thomas in the team next year rather than them two. they may not have the same output as them two but the team would be much better for it in the years to come...

 

[dswan]

100% Aggree! Our youngsters need to inject speed into this squad! Lockyer and Johnson do not deserve games they are turtles. yes they may compete etc but they are too slow for the game. If we want to get thrashed by geelong again play these two by all means.


* luke Rounds looks very promising[YOUTUBE]AG93OpXyXgM[/YOUTUBE]

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Johnno has always played well on Akermanis, particularly in the defensive area. There is still a role for Johnson at Collingwood, as a depth player if nothing else.

Lockyer's ordinary final's games forced me to reassess him as a player. He has tended to drop away in the latter half of several recent seasons. He is little more than an opportunistic goal sneak, who should probably get some games in the H&A but not in finals.

Of the two, I think Johnson may still be of some worth to the seniors as a defender/tagger. Lockyer will probably fade into the background when his game again falls away mid-season.

 

[Kirby]

Johno is a player whom I just don't rate in the modern game. He is an outside player with poor disposal and very average defensive skills. If we are to be a genuine contender we have to have players that push him out of the 22.

Tarks has been a wonderful player but he is a midget with no pace. He has guile and survives on his smarts as he seems to be able to find space. He struggles one on one though and had an ordinary finals series when the heat was on. He will be in the starting 22 but he may struggle to hold his place as the season rolls on.

Let's face it, if these two blokes can't get a game or are struggling to get a game thenm this is probably a good sign.

 

[Histrionics]

Care to throw out a good tagging job he has done recently, or a forward he has stitched up?

Before he broke his leg in the Geelong game he was doing a very good job on Ablett.

 

[Lazyboy]

Both of them will need to be fit enough to play against younger and or faster players.

I think at least 1 of them needs to be in the side for us to win the big dance, because if we lose both of them to kids then the side will lack experience.

Jmac is a player the player I would be considering a strong chance to replace 1 of them, then you can also start looking at Macaffer if their form line is just not helping the team.

 

[smiddaz123]

Before he broke his leg in the Geelong game he was doing a very good job on Ablett.

Yep....so he did a good job for a quarter of a game well over a years ago.

Let's ignore the rest of his awful form defensively since then and give him the job.

 

[Histrionics]

Yep....so he did a good job for a quarter of a game well over a years ago.

Let's ignore the rest of his awful form defensively since then and give him the job.

It shows that he can do a good job on good players. He also got us back into the game kicking a couple of important goals against Adelaide.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

...God forbid we don't all sit around circle jerking over the commitment the players have shown in playing for the black and white ... In saying that though, no-one rubbished Lockyer and I doubt they would...

^^^

It is possible to swing too far in the other direction too.

It's quite obvious that Tarks isn't a racehorse, but some of the descriptions above [not referring to you Invigoration] would suggest that he's a list-clogger. Not really a balanced assessment, I'm afraid.

 

[smiddaz123]

It shows that he can do a good job on good players. He also got us back into the game kicking a couple of important goals against Adelaide.

It shows he has done a job for a quarter on Ablett.

Now, weigh that up against the countless times a direct opponent has been one of the better players for the opposition, and you honestly would back him as our tagger?

And like I said, his goals are generally canceled out, and then some, by the fact his opponent generally tears us up.

A guy performs for a quarter on Ablett, and then probably a dozen or more times, is destroyed by his opponent, and people choose to go on that one quarter as a form guide. I can't see it, tbh.

 

[frizzle]

There is a very good reason Johnno is allowed to run loose week in and week out. The opposition prefer him to be the one kicking the ball as much as possible.
At best he will kick high to a contest. He cannot keep the ball low by foot & can't hit a lead up target. Opposing teams are almost always guaranteed to get the ball back.
We have younger faster & more skilled options available. He can surely only be used as a depth player?

 

[Invigoration]

^^^

It is possible to swing too far in the other direction too.

It's quite obvious that Tarks isn't a racehorse, but some of the descriptions above [not referring to you Invigoration] would suggest that he's a list-clogger. Not really a balanced assessment, I'm afraid.

Yeah you're probably right, I think people just wanted to look at it as objectively as possible. We certainly spend a lot more time around here, and have in the past, praising these blokes so I've really got no problem with people assessing the list going forward without any sympathy or sentimentality.
But I understand how it can come across as a bit disrespectful when it involves great servants of the club.


Good to see the Johnson tagging myth continues though. He is a terrible tagger, he is actually pretty average in general as a defensive player, small forwards have always turned him inside out.
He kicked a couple of goals in the Adelaide match, but does anyone remember he was meant to be tagging Vince that night, who was easily their best.
Eg, AFL.com;

Bernie Vince – 9/10
Continued his blistering form and collected a game-high 34 possessions. Unstoppable in the first-half, he ran Ben Johnson ragged.

 

[smiddaz123]

Then a first year player managed to come along and do the job Ben Johnson was meant to do, later on in the game.

 

[Optimax]

Then a first year player managed to come along and do the job Ben Johnson was meant to do, later on in the game.

By going offensive on him, get the ball first and your man doesnt it.

We also had our structures out of whack and their half forward and midfield rotation ****ed us.

Johnno is a shit tagger but what happened after half time wasnt just because sidebottom got switched onto vince, could have had anyone on vince, dont counteract their rotation they still beat us

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Both are favourites of Mick so they'll be in all year I suspect.

Peronally, neither of them deserve a spot.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

I've re-read the thread twice now. Please direct me to a post that rubbished Lockyer. I think you'll find he's universally respected on these boards, but that doesn't mean that we can't speculate on his playing future. That's why they're discussion boards, and not cheerleading boards.

We need to remember we aren't part of the team. We just watch it.

I'll direct you to the archives.

Pre-2007 I felt like I was holding down the fort by myself defending him.

Most of the Collingwood posters on Bigfooty tend to malign players to no end for the littlest of reasons before the becme "fashionable". Players cop crap here for little or no reason.

 

[dswan]

I'll direct you to the archives.

Pre-2007 I felt like I was holding down the fort by myself defending him.

Most of the Collingwood posters on Bigfooty tend to malign players to no end for the littlest of reasons before the becme "fashionable". Players cop crap here for little or no reason.

Clearly you like Tarks given your name.

Far too much politics on the boards.

If we want to win games we want faster more talented players ie. our new draft picks to play as much as possible. If they fail badly then give these older slower guys a game. Thats my opinion anyway. Do you want us to be average or be great. These two players will never make our team great so by giving young players a go we give us the chance to be great.