Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

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yebiga said:
A hopeless and pathetic hypothetical. By the time that someone has knocked on your door with a shot gun, asking for your sister and wanting to kill her, an infinite number of actions have already occurred including a pack of lies which have contributed to the situation. It's of course your hypothetical, so how did the brother get himself into those circumstances? who is the person trying to kill his sister and why?

Nevertheless, as the person wanting to kill the sister is most likely enraged and irrational, a decision to not tell him the truth - assuming the brother has an attachment to his sister - is no lie at all. It's equivalent to a lie uttered under torture. The prescription to tell the truth, like any prescription always comes with a set of complex presuppositions. Anyone not aware of those presuppositions is either hopelessly mentally incapacitated or disingenuous.
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Why do people attack hypothetical examples when it doesn’t fit with their worldview?

why do you have to believe there were prior lies on your behalf to create the situation? in this hypothetical case there were no prior lies. Heaps of innocent people all the time get caught up in situations not of their doing. Maybe this murderer was another women who was irrational or a psychopath and in love with your sisters boyfriend and wanted her out of the picture. So many examples you could think of where neither the sister or you had lied beforehand.

and yes telling the murderer your sister was not home is not telling the truth. This ain’t my example by the way. Pretty sure it’s Kant’s who shared the same view here as Peterson. He believed you must tell the truth and tHereford you cant tell the murderer she is not home. For Kant truth is the end goal. it’s more important then keeping your sister alive. for Peterson its hard to tell if he even knows what his end goal is. It’s either truth just like Kant or truth is just a means to another end goal which he vaguely calls “best“ without providing any description of what best is. Yet you guys don’t even seem to realise he left out the most important part that you need from Peterson to work out whether his ideology is worthwhile following. Wtf does best mean and why should I pursue it?

i suspect Peterson has no idea what best means either.
 
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Seeds said:
the big word salad is because we aren’t trying to say what you think it says. If you don’t understand then ask for explanation or don’t get involved.
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Try going a week without lying seeds. See if life gets better or worse, on balance. Be honest like the great FK.
 
Royal Flush said:
FMD
A big word salad trying to articulate why speaking the truth isn't good, because it came from JP

On Pixel 4 using BigFooty.com mobile app
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Most of what he said was a wank.

Here's some truth about that clip.

Peterson is full of s**t. He is an ego-tripping toss-pot talking crap. Reality isn't constituted from truth or falsehood its consitituted from the interaction of matter and fields. Reality is so far removed from our everyday understanding of it we have built things like the Large Hard On Collider to figure out what is actually going on ... in reality. So i guess pretending its all about truth and falsehood is an easy way to hide from the uncertainty of all that.

But this is a bloke who made his name telling people ... well boys ... to man up, own their s**t and walk with their back straight. So really I expect better than quasi religious bullshit in the face of it.

This is why public discourse is broken. Cos *en idiots who should know better can get up on twatter and say s**t like: "If you believe, like me, that reality is constituted from the truth then you join my on an epic quest to save the truth and in the process Western Civilisation from itself..." as if its real. And then people act on it. His very existence disproves his main idea in that clip.

Read his first book, some very interesting ideas in there and they disappear up the arse of his personal quest to find the Holy Grail and save the World from the Dragon. Better yet, don't read it, read something good instead.
 
FireKrakouer said:
Try going a week without lying seeds. See if life gets better or worse, on balance. Be honest like the great FK.
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I dont Lie on big footy and am quite Unpopular as a result. if I lived like that in real life I would soon be fired for numerous reasons. Intolerant to others religions. Telling my boss why he is utterly wrong. I would struggle to last the week employed. and Let’s not even go into how long my relationships would last. our social standing in real life is completely dependent on lies. We never say what we really think of each others views and actions in real life. You are lying to yourself if you think you tell the truth. That’s the only person I don’t lie to. Myself. most Of you cant even speak the truth to yourselves. Yet you childishly want to say that speaking to truth all the time is the best course of action for some unnamed reason. What silliness.
 
Seeds said:
Why do people attack hypothetical examples when it doesn’t fit with their worldview?

why do you have to believe there were prior lies on your behalf to create the situation? in this hypothetical case there were no prior lies. Heaps of innocent people all the time get caught up in situations not of their doing. Maybe this murderer was another women who was irrational or a psychopath and in love with your sisters boyfriend and wanted her out of the picture. So many examples you could think of where neither the sister or you had lied beforehand.

and yes telling the murderer your sister was not home is not telling the truth. This ain’t my example by the way. Pretty sure it’s Kant’s who shared the same view here as Peterson. He believed you must tell the truth and tHereford you cant tell the murderer she is not home. For Kant truth is the end goal. it’s more important then keeping your sister alive. for Peterson its hard to tell if he even knows what his end goal is. It’s either truth just like Kant or truth is just a means to another end goal which he vaguely calls “best“ without providing any description of what best is. Yet you guys don’t even seem to realise he left out the most important part that you need from Peterson to work out whether his ideology is worthwhile following. Wtf does best mean and why should I pursue it?

i suspect Peterson has no idea what best means either.
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Kant is not Peterson -
You really should read Maps of Meaning before you can comment on Peterson without sounding like a cretin.
 
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ferball said:
Most of what he said was a wank.

Here's some truth about that clip.

Peterson is full of sh*t. He is an ego-tripping toss-pot talking crap. Reality isn't constituted from truth or falsehood its consitituted from the interaction of matter and fields. Reality is so far removed from our everyday understanding of it we have built things like the Large Hard On Collider to figure out what is actually going on ... in reality. So i guess pretending its all about truth and falsehood is an easy way to hide from the uncertainty of all that.

But this is a bloke who made his name telling people ... well boys ... to man up, own their sh*t and walk with their back straight. So really I expect better than quasi religious bullshit in the face of it.

This is why public discourse is broken. Cos fu**en idiots who should know better can get up on twatter and say sh*t like: "If you believe, like me, that reality is constituted from the truth then you join my on an epic quest to save the truth and in the process Western Civilisation from itself..." as if its real. And then people act on it. His very existence disproves his main idea in that clip.

Read his first book, some very interesting ideas in there and they disappear up the arse of his personal quest to find the Holy Grail and save the World from the Dragon. Better yet, don't read it, read something good instead.
Click to expand...
Reality is constituted not by atoms but by narrative. The Atom reveals itself to us only via narrative.
Before you can define an atom there are an infinite number of stories and all of them necessary to author the Atom narrative.
Every thought, every fact, the entire universe only exists inside narrative.

The dragon is merely a symbol of chaos, for us right now Covid is that Dragon. Chaos and Order are not original themes - they are omni-present and have eternally defined the human narrative. Peterson merely elucidates this to a modern audience. If it helps, think of it as akin to the corporate slogan: change is the only constant.

Those wishing to criticise Peterson, should first understand him. The jibe about his obsession with the holy grail is not bad. The rest, however, is either just dim.
 
yebiga said:
Reality is constituted not by atoms but by narrative. The Atom reveals itself to us only via narrative.
Before you can define an atom there are an infinite number of stories and all of them necessary to author the Atom narrative.
Every thought, every fact, the entire universe only exists inside narrative.

The dragon is merely a symbol of chaos, for us right now Covid is that Dragon. Chaos and Order are not original themes - they are omni-present and have eternally defined the human narrative. Peterson merely elucidates this to a modern audience. If it helps, think of it as akin to the corporate slogan: change is the only constant.

Those wishing to criticise Peterson, should first understand him. The jibe about his obsession with the holy grail is not bad. The rest, however, is either just dim.
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That's quite postmodern.

Narrative ain't truth, or if it is it makes a mockery of the concept the way he uses it.

The universe exists. Your (my, everyone's) experience may be a narrative (that may or may not have a strong element of fantasy involved.) Even the ideas of order and chaos are arbitrarily seperated elements on a continuum or spectrum of apparent probability from a particular perspective. Ie a narrative. They don't exist as such.

BFD.
 
ferball said:
That's quite postmodern.

Narrative ain't truth, or if it is it makes a mockery of the concept the way he uses it.

The universe exists. Your (my, everyone's) experience may be a narrative (that may or may not have a strong element of fantasy involved.) Even the ideas of order and chaos are arbitrarily seperated elements on a continuum or spectrum of apparent probability from a particular perspective. Ie a narrative. They don't exist as such.

BFD.
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That is why you have got to be careful what stories you believe and why JP spends so much time on the most enduring stories. They kind of are the fabric of reality and truth. Embeded in those stories are what is functional - it works - stories that aren't functional don't endure. Of course what is functional can be reified into wisdom, truth or god if you like. The important thing is that the story reveals how we should live and absent a story - there is absolutely nothing.

I think therefore I am - NO - the I is an infinite story. Think is an infinite story. Therefore is a feature of narrative.
At the fundamental level reality is something where there is space and time, with objects and subjects - Presto - that's a story!
 

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Royal Flush said:
There is a good reason I didn't get involved in your comment

On Pixel 4 using BigFooty.com mobile app
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Except ofcourse you did try to get involved by the act of responding but didn’t understand it and are now backing out with just more deflection because you don’t want to know.

why Does truth matter? Why is it it best? None of you JP fangirls can answer it. It’s the simplest of questions. You have nothing.
 
Seeds said:
Except ofcourse you did try to get involved by the act of responding but didn’t understand it and are now backing out with just more deflection because you don’t want to know.

why Does truth matter? Why is it it best? None of you JP fangirls can answer it. It’s the simplest of questions. You have nothing.
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It was verbal diarrhea
 
yebiga said:
Postmodernism declares the death of Meta Narratives? So, If you like it's the philosophy of anti-narrative
So, naturally for Peterson it's akin to the anti-christ.
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That's not my understanding of it.
 
“I knew, when I was working on my first book “Maps of Meaning”, that I was dealing with things that were fundamental. I knew, I mean, I knew insofar as my sense of knowing is reliable, but generally, it’s been reliable, I can tell when I’m onto something. And I knew I was dealing with things that were fundamental. And I watched the effect of my lectures when I was a university professor on my students, and most of the students who I taught said the most common response to my classes was that it changed their life. It changed the way they looked at everything. And that was my experience, having learned and thought through the- what I learned and thought through when I wrote “Maps of Meaning”, it changed the way I looked at everything. So, I could see this coming because as my reach expanded electronically, that sort of response continued to occur. But YouTube magnified that in a way that’s well, it’s a lot to adapt to. You know, I mean, when all this hit me, I was already 55 or there or something, you know, and I’d labored under relative obscurity. That’s been made more of than is really the case because my classes were always popular, and so I had a certain renown at the university as a teacher, and I had done some TV work for about 10 years, really, before I made the first couple of videos that went viral. “

Jordan Peterson
 
Seeds said:
I dont Lie on big footy and am quite Unpopular as a result. if I lived like that in real life I would soon be fired for numerous reasons. Intolerant to others religions. Telling my boss why he is utterly wrong. I would struggle to last the week employed. and Let’s not even go into how long my relationships would last. our social standing in real life is completely dependent on lies. We never say what we really think of each others views and actions in real life. You are lying to yourself if you think you tell the truth. That’s the only person I don’t lie to. Myself. most Of you cant even speak the truth to yourselves. Yet you childishly want to say that speaking to truth all the time is the best course of action for some unnamed reason. What silliness.
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Ask the obverse question, what are the consequences of culture where lying is a feature. As you point out it's almost unavoidable or you would quickly become ridiculed and a shunned pariah. But is this desirable and is it functional? The decrying, lampooning, vilification of our history has led to a kind of cultural amnesia. I mention this because, I suspect, none of the modern advances we take for granted could occur without someone having the courage to call out the lie.

Galileo calls out the lie that the world is flat. Navigators do the same. They risk being burnt at the stake. This pattern repeats itself at every advancement - from the agricultural revolution, to the industrial, from sanitation to education, from women voting to gay rights or the abolition of slavery. Each advance requires a truth teller to be courageous, risk death of their reputation and often enough torture and execution.

Can you really believe this truth telling is childish? This is the truth Peterson is referring to in his book Maps of Meaning. It is the truth he elucidates in his psychology classes and his biblical series videos. This is a heroic calling. His latest books, "rules of life" are a popular motivational version. They are of course superficially less profound because what he is doing is taking these larger lessons and transposing them into the banality of day to day living. The message resonates with people who are perhaps a bit lost and struggling in a very confused world. I get it can seem trite, but that is it? And moreover, what is there to object to? There are literally 100s of motivational books on sale that saccharine drivel and they attract no public scrutiny.

In this instance, we have an author who is challenging his readers to lift their game, be more responsible, make more meaning out of their lives. He is not giving them trite visualisation techniques that promise them they will win tattslotto, attract fame and fortune which is what motivational genre typically excels in.

There is far too much petty envy and ignorance stepping up to criticise Peterson.
 
yebiga said:
The death of grand narratives is kind of a foundational idea of postmodernism
Type this into Google:
Defining the postmodern Lyotard summary
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Its not the death of grand narratives so much as them not being as grand or all encompassing. They lose their power to connect everything together into a coherent whole. Its more they've lost their alpha status. IMO anyway. That's my interpretation of Lyotard's thing on meta narratives.

Post modernism is really a philosophical reaction to modern physics and the 20th century. Its not an ideology, more an attempt to explain and understand what is happening in the world on its own terms. People may recruit its ideas for political causes for example but that isn't because of post modernism itself. Its because the ideas are or were good descriptions of the times.

In the 20th century there was massive change. Fundamental change. Electricity, atomic energy, genetics etc etc. So much more information and much of it directly at odds with "meta narratives" of the time. The cutting edge of learning and explaining the world - special relativity and quantum physics - was giving us more uncertainty and the limits of what we knew or could know.


What Lyotard said is not that different to Nietzsche saying God is dead.
 
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