Josh Simpson

[13then7]

Great post, but a couple of things I would change. Don't use the words white fella (Western European or Australian is better), as I hate this double standard of Aboriginal people calling us white, but we are unable to call them the colour their skin is.

Calling somebody Australian gives no real description at all. My wife is Australian and she aint a white fella (ette) or a black fella (ette). The preferred term is "black fella" right? slicedndiced

What works for the females for that matter "white sheila?"

 

[caterina]

This is a deeply complex problem for the club, as I am sure that they realise, and this f***ing attitude of him needing to HTFU or be "professional" is just too naive and arrogant for words.

I learnt some things from your super post, thanks!!!
I know from what you posted previously that you thought Rendell was hardly done by, but in the end if clubs knows this stuff (which they do), why will they take the risk as Rendell said? You only have 40 odd places on your list.
I'm also interested in your thoughts on the approach of Wayne Bennett who has nurtured many players from disadvantaged backgrounds (not predominantly indigenous though). I saw him interviewed once and he said in the end, after you have been through all the other processes, you sometimes just have to sit down and tell them son, you have been dealt a bad hand, you can either spend the rest of your life making excuses for yourself which people will happily let you do, or you can come and have a crack with me. Simplistic, perhaps insulting to some, but no one can accuse him of being an unsuccessful coach, or a coach that has been able to lead at least some players into a professional environment. But I gather from what you are saying, that will never work with Josh?

 

[Keys]

white fella / black fella no matter - those words arent intrinsically hurtful or racist and as bushie pointed out are often actually a term of endearment in the correct context

Change fella to campaigner though or put a word like useless in front of black fella then it takes on a whole new meaning

 

[E Shed]

In one of the bands I play in the aboriginal singer/frontman makes jokes about the tame white-fellas in the band, telling the audience to "go get their own whitfellas, these ones are mine".
I wrote a song called "blackfella time" about how the guys in that band always turn up late to things and they love it, think it's hilarious.
It all about context.

 

[manpurple]

It's not missing a plane that is the major problem, it is the reasons behind it. Firstly - he didn't inform the club until very late that he wasn't going to be flying. I am assuming they were waiting for him at the airport and he didn't show up so they gave him a call. Something along those lines. Secondly - it depends why he missed it - did he spit the dummy, or was there an emergency. This bit is still unclear.

I think you are missing my point.

All I'm saying is don't throw the baby out with the bath water. In the grand scheme of things some people's reactions are way over the top. Yes he let down the team. It's not like he's the only one who's ever done that. Heck, I was in a casual basketball team for a while and getting the Irish players to turn up consistently did my head in.
So he was a little immature if he spat the dummy over not being selected, who hasn't been immature? IMHO most males under the age of 25 have plenty of moments of immaturity. Some of those have no consequences plenty of others do.
So some discipline needs to be handed down. Well he won't be the first person who was disciplined for "undisciplined acts", there are plenty in the team who have been through that process. For everything from attitude issues to drugs and everything in between.

IMHO kicking him out of the team is just pointless. As I said. We can't change who we picked before the next draft so we loose nothing by keeping him on the team. We have an opportunity here. We all learn something about how to handle these types of situations going forward. We all learn how to handle people with problematic backgrounds. We put our systems to the test to see if we can bring him round. Maybe tough love is required, maybe not. None of us have to make that call. But there are plenty of options short of kicking the guy out of the team for good. All I'm saying is that we gain nothing by making a rush decision on kicking him off the team. Maybe at the end of the year we still say goodbye but the list for that doesn't need to be submitted until October/November time. Why rush.

 

[Keys]

I learnt some things from your super post, thanks!!!
I know from what you posted previously that you thought Rendell was hardly done by, but in the end if clubs knows this stuff (which they do), why will they take the risk as Rendell said? You only have 40 odd places on your list.
I'm also interested in your thoughts on the approach of Wayne Bennett who has nurtured many players from disadvantaged backgrounds (not predominantly indigenous though). I saw him interviewed once and he said in the end, after you have been through all the other processes, you sometimes just have to sit down and tell them son, you have been dealt a bad hand, you can either spend the rest of your life making excuses for yourself which people will happily let you do, or you can come and have a crack with me. Simplistic, perhaps insulting to some, but no one can accuse him of being an unsuccessful coach, or a coach that has been able to lead at least some players into a professional environment. But I gather from what you are saying, that will never work with Josh?

Fremantle have, quite rightly, been fairly non-specific on just what issues Josh is dealing other than to confirm there's more to it than him just spitting the dummy at not being selected in the 22 and they are culturally based.

Part of the solution I think will be determining to what extent his family is a help or a hindrance or more specifically which members of his family (extended or otherwise) can either help or should be avoided. Family is an important part of aboriginal culture and at its core is the concept of sharing within the family group and the responsibilities of the individuals to support their wider family. This can be a problem as frictions arise when some family members expect more than what they may deserve from those who find some success and the imbalances that creates. Josh no doubt would feel responsibility to help his family but may be having difficulties satisfying those demands in conjunction of those of the football club

 

[K Pop]

The reason that this thread has become heated is due to the fact that a hell of a lot of people have offered pretty staunch opinions based upon a whitefella's perspective, and their invective is quite offensive to some of us.

I am very hopeful that the club does NOT stand him down from playing football fullstop. Keep him playing with Peel, or even Peel reserves and still let him train with the AFL squad as he is ONLY here for football and to deprive him of that, at any level, will only disenchant him further and I fear that he will walk away permanently. He also needs his fellow aboriginal teammates for support and guidance, however that in itself presents another set of issues.

Simpson is a traditional Yamatji man and Walters, MJ etc are, to my knowledge at least, Nyoongar, (which is a generic label anyway). So, they have a connection of sorts, but not the type of interaction level, due to culture, that Simpson will feel fully comfortable with. They are also non-traditional city/town raised men, so even they have a limited understanding/link with Simpson.

Some people need to understand the depth of cultural identity crisis that Simpson is suffering from. It is far too complex to explain here, but Lyon himself touched on it yesterday when he spoke of the problems going as deep as Western versus traditional medicine affecting his relationship with the club. Few people here understand the strength of the cultural pull that Simpson feels and the complexity he faces from being required to walk away from it.

Other people say that he should go home to Yalgoo and receive support from his extended family. Well, he was sent away from Yalgoo to Adelaide for school to GET HIM AWAY from his extended family. Think about that.

Again, I touch upon the fact of people speaking from a whitefella's perspective, and I ask how many of you have actually walked the streets of Yalgoo after dark? How many have sat down and had a beer in front yard of a families home in the town. How many of you have visited Pia mission?

I would wager that none of you have. I have. Yalgoo is a hellhole, an absolute disgrace and frankly quite frightening at times. It is not a nurturing environment at all.

This is a deeply complex problem for the club, as I am sure that they realise, and this f***ing attitude of him needing to HTFU or be "professional" is just too naive and arrogant for words.

Brilliant post.

I'll also add that people actually think about - and even see - the world differently because of differing ecologies, social structures, philosophies and educational systems. Much of Western thought has been derived from Ancient Greece, which was characterised by the social tendency of a highly developed sense of personal agency. This influenced cognitive habits towards personal freedom and individuality because of an ecology that gave rise to economic and social structures (such as shipping, trading, fishing, hunting, herding) that enhanced individualism.

In contrast, the ecology of Australia led to hunter-gatherer societies that emphasised interdependent networks of social relations. Hence the sense of collective agency in traditional Australian Aboriginal culture, through which individuals nourished their sense of self through social relations, contributing to group goals and carrying out prescribed roles (necessary in a traditional hunter-gatherer lifestyle).

What this means is that cognitive habits often vary greatly between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Australians. For instance, Josh Simpson may prioritise strong family obligations above his own career (ie collective agency over personal agency). This is not an excuse for Josh missing the plane, but rather an explanation of some of the factors that may have contributed to that event. Also, an interesting facet of these cognitive habits is that Westerns tend to isolate objects (or people) in causal chains, whereas other cultures emphasise the complex nature of multiple events in any given situation. This helps explain why different posters have perceived the same event in very different ways.

Josh is obviously experiencing a massive change in culture, and he needs the understanding, patience and support of the club to help him with this process (which he appears to be getting). Research indicates that people are culturally malleable, their minds and tendencies gradually shifting toward the culture in which they reside. I have confidence that the club is giving him the tools he needs to succeed, and that the coaching staff and players are teaching him how to use these tools. But ultimately it will be up to Josh to take personal responsibility for meeting the professional requirements of an AFL footballer, if he is to develop into the star we all know he can be.

Sorry if this post was boring or tl;dr. I just thought it's a good opportunity to share some knowledge and hopefully enhance understanding of some of the issues that Josh (and many other Aboriginal Australians) experience.

 

[strobe00]

The reason that this thread has become heated is due to the fact that a hell of a lot of people have offered pretty staunch opinions based upon a whitefella's perspective, and their invective is quite offensive to some of us.

I am very hopeful that the club does NOT stand him down from playing football fullstop. Keep him playing with Peel, or even Peel reserves and still let him train with the AFL squad as he is ONLY here for football and to deprive him of that, at any level, will only disenchant him further and I fear that he will walk away permanently. He also needs his fellow aboriginal teammates for support and guidance, however that in itself presents another set of issues.

Simpson is a traditional Yamatji man and Walters, MJ etc are, to my knowledge at least, Nyoongar, (which is a generic label anyway). So, they have a connection of sorts, but not the type of interaction level, due to culture, that Simpson will feel fully comfortable with. They are also non-traditional city/town raised men, so even they have a limited understanding/link with Simpson.

Some people need to understand the depth of cultural identity crisis that Simpson is suffering from. It is far too complex to explain here, but Lyon himself touched on it yesterday when he spoke of the problems going as deep as Western versus traditional medicine affecting his relationship with the club. Few people here understand the strength of the cultural pull that Simpson feels and the complexity he faces from being required to walk away from it.

Other people say that he should go home to Yalgoo and receive support from his extended family. Well, he was sent away from Yalgoo to Adelaide for school to GET HIM AWAY from his extended family. Think about that.

Again, I touch upon the fact of people speaking from a whitefella's perspective, and I ask how many of you have actually walked the streets of Yalgoo after dark? How many have sat down and had a beer in front yard of a families home in the town. How many of you have visited Pia mission?

I would wager that none of you have. I have. Yalgoo is a hellhole, an absolute disgrace and frankly quite frightening at times. It is not a nurturing environment at all.

This is a deeply complex problem for the club, as I am sure that they realise, and this f***ing attitude of him needing to HTFU or be "professional" is just too naive and arrogant for words.

Top post pb.

 

[strobe00]

Have never been offended by being called a whitefella. Have been offended by being called a white dog though. But they're two pretty different kettles of fish.

As snd says, very different impact depending on the noun you put next to the colour.

 

[ImperialPurple]

Troy Cook is a Yamatji man also. I wonder if the club will bring him in at any time to mentor Simpson.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

I was told by some whitefellas that only blackfellas can say blackfella. I always thought anyone could say blackfella. Glad this has cleared that up.

 

[scon]

I know plenty of country town Aboriginals and there's no problem with 'blackfella'.I often chuck in but 'you only think that 'cos you're black' as a joke or to get a rise out of someone..no problem at all.Wouldn't be doing it if I didn't have a good relationship with them naturally.
I've seen Cooky at games and scratchies IP so I'm sure he'd be available and willing.
I'd be hoping the obvious common ground of Josh playing footy for Freo long term is what guides all discussion.

 

[E Shed]

with the Desert Feet Music Tour we go to all the remote communities in the Western Desert during the football carnivals. Every mob takes it in turns to host the carnival and the other mobs pack up and drive 1000's of k's and they get together and play footy and the women play netball for 4 days or so. We setup a concert every night and work with individual musicians and kids during the day doing workshops. Swans and other WAFL clubs are all over these carnivals, providing uniforms and equipment as a kind of advanced talent spotting frontier.
I've met some pretty awesome footballers and you can tell the ones that have been down to the city to play as they usually have footy boots, most of the mob play in bare feet on the baking red dirt ovals. One guy we talked to said he would like to have played in the WAFL but because of his family responsibilities, his father is a senior elder in their community, he will be increasingly called on to attend meetings and ceremonies and simply wouldn't have the time. A more common story is that they just don't want to leave their land and what we see as incentive doesn't mean that much to them.
One guy was telling us how he got offered a car and a house to live in and plenty of money to play in the WAFL but he said he'd rather be where he is. You look around and that equates to (with whitefella eyes) a few old houses in literally one of the most remote places on earth and you ask why (you have to spend some time on country and visit the water holes and sacred spots before you start seeing the beautify) - Because this is where my family is and my land. here I can go hunting and fishing and my family is here.

it really is another world.

 

[Keys]

with the Desert Feet Music Tour we go to all the remote communities in the Western Desert during the football carnivals. Every mob takes it in turns to host the carnival and the other mobs pack up and drive 1000's of k's and they get together and play footy and the women play netball for 4 days or so. We setup a concert every night and work with individual musicians and kids during the day doing workshops. Swans and other WAFL clubs are all over these carnivals, providing uniforms and equipment as a kind of advanced talent spotting frontier.
I've met some pretty awesome footballers and you can tell the ones that have been down to the city to play as they usually have footy boots, most of the mob play in bare feet on the baking red dirt ovals. One guy we talked to said he would like to have played in the WAFL but because of his family responsibilities, his father is a senior elder in their community, he will be increasingly called on to attend meetings and ceremonies and simply wouldn't have the time. A more common story is that they just don't want to leave their land and what we see as incentive doesn't mean that much to them.
One guy was telling us how he got offered a car and a house to live in and plenty of money to play in the WAFL but he said he'd rather be where he is. You look around and that equates to (with whitefella eyes) a few old houses in literally one of the most remote places on earth and you ask why (you have to spend some time on country and visit the water holes and sacred spots before you start seeing the beautify) - Because this is where my family is and my land. here I can go hunting and fishing and my family is here.

it really is another world.

The vast majority of white people, myself included, don't understand aboriginals or their culture. It's foreign to us and nor is it taught to us in any meaningful fashion.

I have a truckload of issues with parts of aboriginal society and hold some quite negative opinions towards them. The closer indigenous people get to urban areas the more these problems are manifested and for the most part the further from white people they are the more balanced and happier they are it seems to me. (simplistic as that notion is)

 

[strobe00]

with the Desert Feet Music Tour we go to all the remote communities in the Western Desert during the football carnivals. Every mob takes it in turns to host the carnival and the other mobs pack up and drive 1000's of k's and they get together and play footy and the women play netball for 4 days or so. We setup a concert every night and work with individual musicians and kids during the day doing workshops. Swans and other WAFL clubs are all over these carnivals, providing uniforms and equipment as a kind of advanced talent spotting frontier.
I've met some pretty awesome footballers and you can tell the ones that have been down to the city to play as they usually have footy boots, most of the mob play in bare feet on the baking red dirt ovals. One guy we talked to said he would like to have played in the WAFL but because of his family responsibilities, his father is a senior elder in their community, he will be increasingly called on to attend meetings and ceremonies and simply wouldn't have the time. A more common story is that they just don't want to leave their land and what we see as incentive doesn't mean that much to them.
One guy was telling us how he got offered a car and a house to live in and plenty of money to play in the WAFL but he said he'd rather be where he is. You look around and that equates to (with whitefella eyes) a few old houses in literally one of the most remote places on earth and you ask why (you have to spend some time on country and visit the water holes and sacred spots before you start seeing the beautify) - Because this is where my family is and my land. here I can go hunting and fishing and my family is here.

it really is another world.

some really good posts coming out of this thread today.

Wouldn't have picked that a day or two ago.

learned a lot today just from reading a few very good posts.

And I always thought bigfooty was just for p!ssing time away.

 

[slicedndiced]

First of all, it is pretty heartening to see some of these reponses

I learnt some things from your super post, thanks!!!
I know from what you posted previously that you thought Rendell was hardly done by, but in the end if clubs knows this stuff (which they do), why will they take the risk as Rendell said? You only have 40 odd places on your list.
I'm also interested in your thoughts on the approach of Wayne Bennett who has nurtured many players from disadvantaged backgrounds (not predominantly indigenous though). I saw him interviewed once and he said in the end, after you have been through all the other processes, you sometimes just have to sit down and tell them son, you have been dealt a bad hand, you can either spend the rest of your life making excuses for yourself which people will happily let you do, or you can come and have a crack with me. Simplistic, perhaps insulting to some, but no one can accuse him of being an unsuccessful coach, or a coach that has been able to lead at least some players into a professional environment. But I gather from what you are saying, that will never work with Josh?

In regards to Rendell and what he said: we take the risk because of two main reasons.

a.) The joy these kids provide on the field with their instinctive style of football that 99.9% of whitefellas just don't have. The risk/reward ratio may be higher than the norm, however when it pays off the whole competition wins.

b.) and most importantly, the opportunity that AFL, Rugby League and Rugby Union provides is unsurpassed in our modern world. Sport is one of, if not the, most critically vital elements to provide Aboriginal people with true equality. One persons success can inspire a whole community, not only a family.

Furthermore, in regards to Wayne Bennett, I am a HUGE fan of the guy and his philosophy.

And I would like to set one thing straight here; I am under no illusions that Josh needs a massive kick up the arse for this behaviour, I may empathise with it, however I know, (from his Grandmother), that Josh knows what is right from wrong.

Now, whether he cares enough is another thing entirely and something that I can't offer an opinion on at this stage. However, a Bennett like talk from Lyon, (which I feel is inevitable), along with ongoing support, guidance and counselling, can only do more good than harm. If Josh wants to take it on board we all win, if he walks away he will become yet another sad statistic in the mould of Jurrah and Renton Roberts.

Fremantle have, quite rightly, been fairly non-specific on just what issues Josh is dealing other than to confirm there's more to it than him just spitting the dummy at not being selected in the 22 and they are culturally based.

Part of the solution I think will be determining to what extent his family is a help or a hindrance or more specifically which members of his family (extended or otherwise) can either help or should be avoided. Family is an important part of aboriginal culture and at its core is the concept of sharing within the family group and the responsibilities of the individuals to support their wider family. This can be a problem as frictions arise when some family members expect more than what they may deserve from those who find some success and the imbalances that creates. Josh no doubt would feel responsibility to help his family but may be having difficulties satisfying those demands in conjunction of those of the football club

Indeed. You understand old mate, you always have

Josh's wider family are not what I would call conducive to him having an ongoing and successful career in anything, let alone professional football.

In conclusion, if I have labelled anyone in this thread an idiot, a racist, ignorant or a w anker, it is because I have meant it 100%. If you don't like it it's your problem.

 

[yakamoto]

Good to see that the average quality of the posts on this topic has improved considerably today. Many insightful and informative contributions.

 

[free at last]

Weave no idea what yore talking about.

That is the worst case of "weave" I've ever witnessed.

 

[Seppo]

some really good posts coming out of this thread today.

Wouldn't have picked that a day or two ago.

learned a lot today just from reading a few very good posts.

And I always thought bigfooty was just for p!ssing time away.

That's why i wanted to keep this thread open and just not lock it.

I was interested in the subject at hand and wanted some education on the matter as I don't have much exposure to the culture. I love reading posts about the country football culture and the indigenous way of life that makes me want to travel out bush and experience it for myself.

My parents met teaching in an aboriginal community up north when they both moved to Australia. Can't remember exactly where but it was close to Meekathara.

 

[mattis117]

That's why i wanted to keep this thread open and just not lock it.

I was interested in the subject at hand and wanted some education on the matter as I don't have much exposure to the culture. I love reading posts about the country football culture and the indigenous way of life that makes me want to travel out bush and experience it for myself.

My parents met teaching in an aboriginal community up north when they both moved to Australia. Can't remember exactly where but it was close to Meekathara.

It's hump day and the next game is closer than the last so everyone is in a good mood?

Hopefully we hear some news on this issue today or tomorrow.

 

[freoextra]

Great posts everyone. In many ways, I would imagine, the main issue is one for Josh to consider, do I want to make this commitment or is this simply not for me.

If he comes back committed to the cause ( buys in) then I hope the Club will remain as understanding. They have acknowledged that a lot of resources have already been used to help Josh. No use considering anything until we hear back from Josh.

 

[DOCKERZ]

Thanks to all for their input on page 22.

Something I take from the previous 21 pages, is that if/when Josh does return to the club, there will need to be significant education given (I assume some has already), to the rest of the squad about why Josh may need be dealt with differently to the rest of the squad due to his culture.

I was thinking today, that Josh's situation with his kids, may well have had an alienating effect on his relations with his teammates.
New recruits tend to share a place with other players, during which time they'd all be dropped/disciplined by the club. They'd have their housemates to bounce things off and whinge about to, who would in turn encourage them to keep their spirits up and help keep them in line.
If one of those guys wanted to blow off a flight/training, there would be a couple of housemates (ok, maybe not Michie/Shero) dragging their arse to the airport on time.

 

[Tonga Bob]

Really good stuff in here, thanks everyone for the insights.

 

[clogged]

I was thinking today, that Josh's situation with his kids, may well have had an alienating effect on his relations with his teammates.
New recruits tend to share a place with other players, during which time they'd all be dropped/disciplined by the club. They'd have their housemates to bounce things off and whinge about to, who would in turn encourage them to keep their spirits up and help keep them in line.
If one of those guys wanted to blow off a flight/training, there would be a couple of housemates (ok, maybe not Michie/Shero) dragging their arse to the airport on time.

Yeah I wondered about that. Not alienating so much, but isolating. Even without the different cultural background, the fact he's had children at such a young age puts him at a different stage of life than most of his peers in the team.

 

[Gekko71]

Really good stuff in here, thanks everyone for the insights.

Yeah, I know right?? ...I wanted this thread closed two days ago for the terrible standard of commentary and mud-slinging.

Intelligent, insightful, respectful commentary on sensitive issues in an online forum?? ..Ye gods! Call tech support - someone broke the interwebs!!