Josh Simpson

[slicedndiced]

iview and ABC past programs don't work overseas. Unless something has changed lately.

Agree on Jones Ripper , he can be a bit of a twat, however he is actually a coalition voter.

 

[balthazarthedonk]

She was incredible wasn't she.

In polar opposite to that bitter and twisted old Lib on the panel. She made him piss blood in the end.

I'm actually a moderate between her and Noel Pearson's opinions. There has to be a certain amount of assimilation whilst maintaining culture, tradition and identity.

But how do you do that? This is a serious question, not intended to bait anyone. When I listen to Pearson, I hear him him talk about economic opportunities for Aborigines, and investment and individual initiative. But these things will require common law property rights and changes to tribal hierarchies and community decision making - people are kidding themselves if they think otherwise. Rosalie made an impassioned speech about her rights as a member of the First Nations and her right to maintain her culture without assimilating. Traditional communities operate very differently with communal title and decision making based on the interests of the community and not the individual.
To me, neither viewpoint is wrong but they lead their communities in different directions. It's part of the reasons why Government policy-making - inevitably based on "one size fits all" approaches - struggles so badly.
There was another really interesting article this weekend on Landline, of all things. Aboriginal-owned cattle stations in the Kimberley have formed a co-operative because they were each too small to be economical. They are apparently, with the assistance of Wayne Bergmann, negotiating directly with a HK-based Chinese consortium. The deal is that the land remains Aboriginal-owned and run by Aborigines. They interviewed the CEO of the HK group, who attended a native title settlement ceremony with the local community, and she was really positive. Innovative I thought, but again more appealing to some communities than others

 

[slicedndiced]

But how do you do that? This is a serious question, not intended to bait anyone. When I listen to Pearson, I hear him him talk about economic opportunities for Aborigines, and investment and individual initiative. But these things will require common law property rights and changes to tribal hierarchies and community decision making - people are kidding themselves if they think otherwise. Rosalie made an impassioned speech about her rights as a member of the First Nations and her right to maintain her culture without assimilating. Traditional communities operate very differently with communal title and decision making based on the interests of the community and not the individual.
To me, neither viewpoint is wrong but they lead their communities in different directions. It's part of the reasons why Government policy-making - inevitably based on "one size fits all" approaches - struggles so badly.
There was another really interesting article this weekend on Landline, of all things. Aboriginal-owned cattle stations in the Kimberley have formed a co-operative because they were each too small to be economical. They are apparently, with the assistance of Wayne Bergmann, negotiating directly with a HK-based Chinese consortium. The deal is that the land remains Aboriginal-owned and run by Aborigines. They interviewed the CEO of the HK group, who attended a native title settlement ceremony with the local community, and she was really positive. Innovative I thought, but again more appealing to some communities than others

I would have thought that you answered your own question with the example of Mt Anderson, the Watson family and the Chinese deal.

There is no way in hell that old man John will let his culture die, however he is astute enough to see the benefits of a business venture.

I agree that in communities on land other than pastoral leases, there are some issues, however I don't think that common law property rights and decision making processes are as big of a hurdle as you think.

The Landline program, (it was also on 7-30 in a condensed version), shows that if we can remove the endless layers of bureaucracy, (which stifle real development for the purposes of ongoing trough guzzling), we can see tangible improvements and a sense of entrepreneurial spirit in Aboriginal society.

None of this has to happen at the expense of culture.

 

[slicedndiced]

Coincidentally, right now on ABC 24 there is discussion about a government white paper, (released today), in regards to changing Aboriginal land tenure and expanding special economic zones in the bush.

I await it with interest.

 

[balthazarthedonk]

I agree that in communities on land other than pastoral leases, there are some issues, however I don't think that common law property rights and decision making processes are as big of a hurdle as you think.

Communal title becomes an issue when investors are looking for security (in the financial sense of the term) to offset lending risk

 

[slicedndiced]

Communal title becomes an issue when investors are looking for security (in the financial sense of the term) to offset lending risk

Yes and no. In terms of security for a loan, the cattle/livestock themselves are usually enough for most rural lending institutions.

If we are talking about investment apart from agricultural enterprises then yes, it is an issue.

Hence, I am looking forward to the release of the White Paper today to see what new initiatives, (if any), are being promoted.

In saying that, I can see no reason why the Federal Government can't act as guarantor on the basis of welfare payments being restricted/stopped in exchange for meaningful investment , job creation and sustainable ecological management and utilisation of the land.

 

[scon]

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/past-programs-by-date.htm

There is the program website GilG.

scon Might watch it later if I get time. I had made a pledge to myself that I would ignore it until they stopped loading the panel .

On Rosalie

Thanks for the link Rip I'll do a bit more reading.A few more references from you and sliced and I'll be almost ready for my exam
Last weeks panel comprised Cory Bernardi,Malcolm Turnbull's wife Lucy who's Sydney's ex-mayor,Liberal Senator Katherine King,Theoretical Physicist Lawrence Krauss,Rowan Dean who's associate Editor of the Spectator and Shadow Healthy Catherine King so the bent went the other way.Cory was disappointing as I had high hopes for him as an live entertainer.Anyway I'm stretching the relevance meter and don't have an axe to grind on the shows politics it's unique and normally lively and topical and last night's was a goody.
The stuff Pearson is saying in his paper so far reminds me very much of conversations I had with an aboriginal bloke years ago.Mike Hill (sadly deceased)was quite pessimistic about the ability of aboriginal culture to survive the ravages of alcohol and drug abuse.
PS don't get ABC 24??

 

[balthazarthedonk]

Yes and no. In terms of security for a loan, the cattle/livestock themselves are usually enough for most rural lending institutions.

If we are talking about investment apart from agricultural enterprises then yes, it is an issue.

Hence, I am looking forward to the release of the White Paper today to see what new initiatives, (if any), are being promoted.

In saying that, I can see no reason why the Federal Government can't act as guarantor on the basis of welfare payments being restricted/stopped in exchange for meaningful investment , job creation and sustainable ecological management and utilisation of the land.

Depends upon your starting point for the investment. If you're already running cattle then yeah you may have adequate security. If you're starting from further back, then no.

Your other suggestion, while interesting, is just begging for a Constitutional challenge. Can't see the Feds operating as guarantor of commercial enterprises anywhere amongst the powers in section 51 of the Constitution and is otherwise arguably discrimatory and could be struck down on this basis as well. Presumably why they structure investments through the indigenous land corporation and such like

 

[Reginald Perrin]

... Rosalie made an impassioned speech about her rights as a member of the First Nations and her right to maintain her culture without assimilating...

Seems a bit odd for a female to be championing the cause of maintaining culture and not assimilating, considering that if that were the case she wouldn't be in the position to champion anything.

 

[slicedndiced]

Depends upon your starting point for the investment. If you're already running cattle then yeah you may have adequate security. If you're starting from further back, then no.

Your other suggestion, while interesting, is just begging for a Constitutional challenge. Can't see the Feds operating as guarantor of commercial enterprises anywhere amongst the powers in section 51 of the Constitution and is otherwise arguably discrimatory and could be struck down on this basis as well. Presumably why they structure investments through the indigenous land corporation and such like

Yep, I was just thinking on my feet and you are probably right. I'm no constitutional law expert, but wouldn't the clauses in the anti-discrimination act preclude this?

To turn this back to Josh Simpson, it is incredible to me that DEC/CALM, (whatever those idiots call themselves now), have reclaimed millions of hectares of pastoral leases in the Yalgoo/Mt Magnet region, yet deny any form of aboriginal involvement for potential tourism to some truly spectacular country, or for indigenous people to take some responsibility in the health of the land.

Nope, they just lock it up, (to the consternation and anger of whitefella pastoralists as well), and let it fester with invasive species, turn off all the waters so native wildlife die en masse and generally don't give a stuff about it.

That region, in particular, is crying out for some leadership and investment, yet we see nothing but bureaucrats saying no, no, no.

Yalgoo, Magnet, Mullewa etc are in the mess they are because of what we created in the first place, yet the inaction of government stands testament to the lack of logical thought across all levels of government.

Hence, I applaud the actions of indigenous groups in the Kimberley and Pilbara for taking measures themselves.

Seems a bit odd for a female to be championing the cause of maintaining culture and not assimilating, considering that if that were the case she wouldn't be in the position to champion anything.

Can you expand a bit on that Reggie? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Ripper]

iview and ABC past programs don't work overseas. Unless something has changed lately.

Agree on Jones Ripper , he can be a bit of a twat, however he is actually a coalition voter.

He must be in Malcolm Turnbull's seat.

 

[Ripper]

Nope, they just lock it up, (to the consternation and anger of whitefella pastoralists as well), and let it fester with invasive species, turn off all the waters so native wildlife die en masse and generally don't give a stuff about it.

That region, in particular, is crying out for some leadership and investment, yet we see nothing but bureaucrats saying no, no, no.

Yalgoo, Magnet, Mullewa etc are in the mess they are because of what we created in the first place, yet the inaction of government stands testament to the lack of logical thought across all levels of government.

Hence, I applaud the actions of indigenous groups in the Kimberley and Pilbara for taking measures themselves.

Straight AGENDA21 , they want to turn it into "wildlands"

And to get people out of the bush they have to remove the industry that supports them.




From ~26minute mark.

 

[balthazarthedonk]

Yep, I was just thinking on my feet and you are probably right. I'm no constitutional law expert, but wouldn't the clauses in the anti-discrimination act preclude this?

No. The Constitution overrides all other legislation. There is a power to make special laws for any race, section 51(xxvi), so you could theoretically write legislation permitting investment, try and get it past the Corey Bernadis of this world and the seemingly very odd individuals who will soon inhabit the Senate and then take your chances on an anti-discrimination point. Also, any Commonwealth guarantee is supposed to be laid before Parliament. I wouldn't hold my breath on this. On the other hand, the States have wider powers but whether they'd use them is another thing

 

[Reginald Perrin]

Can you expand a bit on that Reggie? I'm not sure what you mean.

In her own culture, discussion of important matters and/or the chance to present them to a wider audience would be retained by the men.

If people were allowed to maintain their cultural identity in it's entirety, they would be performing female circumcision in places like Katanning. It's rumoured they still do, but that's another story.

There are lots of examples where women in general don't get the best deal under historical cultural customs, so presumably nobody is advocating that Australian law be amended to allow every aspect of cultural identity to coexist.

 

[slicedndiced]

Straight AGENDA21 , they want to turn it into "wildlands"

And to get people out of the bush they have to remove the industry that supports them.




From ~26minute mark.

Intriguing stuff, I was unaware of this guy, but aware of the concerns he raises. The manner in which this area has effectively been locked up certainly smells very strongly of what he is claiming. You would no doubt be aware of the ongoing anger it has created across all cultures and people. They are dickheads, pure and simple.

You know a little more about me than most on here, and the reason I left that organisation was precisely the same as what he says. The NGO I worked for is UN accredited and hellbent on excluding people from its activities, including indigenous peoples, despite their public utterances to the contrary.

I have talked about knowing certain elders before in this thread, and have worked extensively with them to reconnect culture to animal totems, bush medicine and conservation/preservation of significant sites over many, many years. But when push came to shove, this organisation I worked for showed their true colours and excluded any meaningful participation in their programs and on the millions of hectares of land that they own. All of which, all around Australia, contains extremely important cultural heritage sites and a massive opportunity for human interaction, education and, ultimately, reconciliation.

No. The Constitution overrides all other legislation. There is a power to make special laws for any race, section 51(xxvi), so you could theoretically write legislation permitting investment, try and get it past the Corey Bernadis of this world and the seemingly very odd individuals who will soon inhabit the Senate and then take your chances on an anti-discrimination point. Also, any Commonwealth guarantee is supposed to be laid before Parliament. I wouldn't hold my breath on this. On the other hand, the States have wider powers but whether they'd use them is another thing

Cheers, very informative stuff.

In her own culture, discussion of important matters and/or the chance to present them to a wider audience would be retained by the men.

If people were allowed to maintain their cultural identity in it's entirety, they would be performing female circumcision in places like Katanning. It's rumoured they still do, but that's another story.

There are lots of examples where women in general don't get the best deal under historical cultural customs, so presumably nobody is advocating that Australian law be amended to allow every aspect of cultural identity to coexist.

In aboriginal culture there is clear divide on men's and women's business. So discussions are initially held separately, but then collaboratively in a general sense, so a conclusion/decision can be reached. It could also be argued that aboriginal culture in general is a matriarchal construct, however that can be debated.

I would further argue that it is Aboriginal women in the main who have taken over the public debate on many issues, (speaking on behalf of both sexes), due to their despair and frustration on seeing what is happening to their men. So no, I don't think what you are saying is necessarily the case now, nor in the future if assimilation is point blank refused.

 

[Reginald Perrin]

In aboriginal culture there is clear divide on men's and women's business. So discussions are initially held separately, but then collaboratively in a general sense, so a conclusion/decision can be reached. It could also be argued that aboriginal culture in general is a matriarchal construct, however that can be debated.

I would further argue that it is Aboriginal women in the main who have taken over the public debate on many issues, (speaking on behalf of both sexes), due to their despair and frustration on seeing what is happening to their men. So no, I don't think what you are saying is necessarily the case now, nor in the future if assimilation is point blank refused.

No arguments from me here, the same is applicable locally, but then that is the result of partial assimilation in the first place, is it not? It's actually a bit of culture shock for me personally to be dealing with female elders.

The point I am trying to make is that a female whose cultural background includes certain aspects of the treatment of women which are unacceptable by today's standards cannot be advocating the retention of culture in it's entirety. There has to be an element of cultural assimilation in there somewhere.

 

[slicedndiced]

No arguments from me here, the same is applicable locally, but then that is the result of partial assimilation in the first place, is it not? It's actually a bit of culture shock for me personally to be dealing with female elders.

The point I am trying to make is that a female whose cultural background includes certain aspects of the treatment of women which are unacceptable by today's standards cannot be advocating the retention of culture in it's entirety. There has to be an element of cultural assimilation in there somewhere.

Yep. I see where you're coming from now and I agree. Hence, my stance on being in the middle ground between Pearson's almost total assimilation and Rosalie's basic refusal of it. We, everybody, have to find the middle ground to make things work.

This is exactly the situation that Josh Simpson now finds himself in. Partial assimilation for his personal benefit and walking away from his heritage in a manner which is unacceptable to some, (not all), in his mob or walking away totally from something he loves and is good at.

It is an incredibly difficult situation for any young father, not to mention it being played out under the media spotlight and public scrutiny. Scrutiny which is, at times, viewed through unthinking and ignorant eyes.

 

[scon]

It's the static culture that dies and the intelligent dynamic one which survives and thrives;culture has to be self-reflexive at some level and able to adapt to changing circumstance and pressure.Look at how the church atrophied and withered into total irrelevance and an arguably criminal organisation under the leadership of those hellbent on protecting tradition above all else like Pell and his scaly mates.
In Josh's case I don't know enough about the detail of the issues but hopefully something significant evolves and as others have suggested we develop a template that helps all to benefit somehow.

 

[MadDocker]

The more I read about this topic, the more I realise that I know next to nothing about it and just how massive a task any kind of meaningful reconciliation actually is.

We really are getting absolutely nowhere in a hurry and spending massive amount of time and money doing it.

 

[Bicco]

The more I read about this topic, the more I realise that I know next to nothing about it and just how massive a task any kind of meaningful reconciliation actually is.

We really are getting absolutely nowhere in a hurry and spending massive amount of time and money doing it.

Even the longest journey starts with a first step.
It's hard enough changing one persons mind let alone generations of attitudes. Threads like this can show people who are separated by distance that they have common thoughts.

 

[Apenesslike]

In her own culture, discussion of important matters and/or the chance to present them to a wider audience would be retained by the men.

If people were allowed to maintain their cultural identity in it's entirety, they would be performing female circumcision in places like Katanning. It's rumoured they still do, but that's another story.

There are lots of examples where women in general don't get the best deal under historical cultural customs, so presumably nobody is advocating that Australian law be amended to allow every aspect of cultural identity to coexist.

Katanning, now there's a place with a massive cultural divide. The hatred used to run strong there amongst the youth, almost as much as the drugs.

May have changed, but that is how I remember that town.

 

[Moo]

Katanning, now there's a place with a massive cultural divide. The hatred used to run strong there amongst the youth, almost as much as the drugs.

May have changed, but that is how I remember that town.

Do I know you?

 

[Apenesslike]

Do I know you?

In person or as a poster. Yes as a poster

 

[Reginald Perrin]

Katanning, now there's a place with a massive cultural divide. The hatred used to run strong there amongst the youth, almost as much as the drugs.

May have changed, but that is how I remember that town.

Some high profile activity is currently undertaken in Katanning to foster multiculturalism due mainly to the significant population of Muslims. That in itself has the potential to assist in the reconciliation process for the longer term locals, but it has also added fuel to the mix in the past. They have some very shameful history only now coming out about how the hostel facilities were run, and plenty more in the past in places like Marribank. Unfortunately it has touched the lives of all races and the whole place needs some serious healing. In my view, if it is achievable at all, it will take multiple generations.

 

[Apenesslike]

Do I know you?

Mostly sheep, barley and Canola around those parts. Didn't know too many cows