Coach Justin Longmuir Pt 2

[malpaso]

We were flat in the first and it is tempting to blame JLo. And the players have form in this area.

Edited for accuracy

 

[jusjoshin]

I wanna leapfrog off this comment to maybe start a more nuanced discussion of how we go about it. I agree with the observation about reserving energy by not going all out all the time, but I think the “two distinct styles” comment doesn’t do justice to the dynamism of the “game plan” (quotation marks because I feel the whole idea of a game plan is misleading to the extent it suggests a simple set of directives to be followed consistently throughout the game) both across a game and across the season.

For starters, the so-called game plan has shifted and developed quite a bit across the season. E.g. we’ve hardly been switching lately. Whether that’s because the oppo has been conceding the short kick, or indicative of a deliberate change in strategy is up for debate. I tend to feel that we’ve been playing what the oppo give us, rather than following some “chip-chip game plan”. Also: remember all the angst at the start of the season about how our handball game can’t stand up to elite pressure? There’s been a lot less of that that lately (first half against Carlton, notwithstanding).

Another thing is that the two distinct styles you’ve identified both relate to possession strategies, in the sense of what to do when we have the ball. There’s also different styles or strategies of play without the ball, and different stoppage strategies. E.g. for a few weeks there we were playing much more one-on-one (e.g. Hawthorn, if my memory serves), and/or zoning only for specific scenarios (e.g. kick out, wing stoppages?).

Identifying differences in stoppage strategy (beyond differences in personnel) is a bit beyond me, but I think in any case they might be a bit more reactive in the sense of being ad hoc solutions to problems encountered as the game unfolds. Hence why we sometimes seem to be getting beat in stoppages early, but then turn it around — which potentially tests the argument that Longmuir is not a good game day coach, and offers another reaon why we don’t smash “lesser” teams from the get go.

The clichéd ways of putting it is either having “a Plan B” or throwing “the magnets” around, though to my mind the former phrase doesn’t capture the ad hoc nature of the adjustments while the later phrase makes it sound as though it’s all to do with personnel, when it’s probably as much if not more to do with positioning and decision making.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I don’t really know much about football so maybe others who have some inside knowledge of semi-professional football can clean up some of my clumsiness. A lot has been made of a change in style since the Saints loss — but is it as wholesale as all that? It feels like we are getting to the point where we can be more flexible and adaptable, adjusting (whether from the get go, or at a certain point in the game) to what the oppo is doing but without threatening team cohesion.

You are correct about us not switching as much recently. I'm guessing this is to do with us having two fit rucks and being able to force it up the line to a contest where we can deflect it over the line and gain territory, along with that strategy not really working in the wet when skills are down.

 

[dockerfemme]

We often criticise Longmuir for being conservative, and in some ways he is. But if you go back to our expectations of ‘best 23’ last summer and think about what has happened over the course of the season quite a lot has changed.

As far as I know Dogga didn’t train as a mid over the summer (although it was talked about) yet here we are with Dogga the mid/ruck/occasional forward. This probably came about because Vossy made himself undroppable. So our forward line is a different beast to expectations last summer.

Again, as far as I know Cooper Simpson didn’t train as a half back last summer but we have seen that happen. Coops as a half back may or may not be seen again at afl level this year, but it is a very promising idea and was implemented quickly.

We have seen Worner entrench himself as an afl player, although that is something that took a while to play out, our coaching group absolutely nailed the use of Murph in his first year, and Duds has been usefully used as needed, though without an afl level of fitness.

I was totally fed up with Longmuir for the first part of the season (particularly as I was at Geelong for round 1 and was embarrassed) but the club has absorbed change over the season and that is a good thing.

 

[freoextra]

Humble pie. He proved me wrong today. Let’s hope he continues to prove me wrong. He was one of my favourite players in his day, I want him to be my favourite ever coach. Come on JL, say ‘suck shit’ to me for doubting you.

I also hope the best for JL because it would mean Freo is doing well, it just seems he is slow to react to some very obvious moves. I have said it before, our coach has been great for our culture, has played a large part in stopping the player drain ( that was about one player manager) and is clearly loved/respected by his players.

But, I just feel all of the above means we are having our Ken Hinkley moment, I just don’t think he can beat the best coaches in the finals ( if we make them). There is hope, we are still young and growing but unfortunately that will be the case again next year when we don’t have Sonny, Fyfe and Aish.

 

[Piggy Smalls]

You still going the early crow you may be vindicated in the end i still don’t think he’s a premiership coach.

As far as I can see, the only ones going the early crow were the JL bashers yesterday.

 

[dropbear101]

i was really impressed with his coaching on the weekend. missing his 2 first choice defensive mids in wagner and johnson. johnson which is a great matchup for cripps.
getting bashed in clearances. to nullify both cripps and hewett and get serong going in the second half was seriously good stuff. re- jig things with young going out.

wagner coming back would be amazing for his match up against butters.

 

[Duz97]

I also hope the best for JL because it would mean Freo is doing well, it just seems he is slow to react to some very obvious moves. I have said it before, our coach has been great for our culture, has played a large part in stopping the player drain ( that was about one player manager) and is clearly loved/respected by his players.

But, I just feel all of the above means we are having our Ken Hinkley moment, I just don’t think he can beat the best coaches in the finals ( if we make them). There is hope, we are still young and growing but unfortunately that will be the case again next year when we don’t have Sonny, Fyfe and Aish.

I’m sorry but that last bit “ I just don’t think he can beat the best coaches in finals”
Didn’t he beat Bevo in 2022 coming from 45 odd points down when they made the grand final the year before and they rave how good Bevo is.
JL has gotten rid of all the dead weight since then and build his team how he wants they are young and only going to get better in future years. Got the best record against top 9 teams for a reason

 

[freoextra]

I’m sorry but that last bit “ I just don’t think he can beat the best coaches in finals”
Didn’t he beat Bevo in 2022 coming from 45 odd points down when they made the grand final the year before and they rave how good Bevo is.
JL has gotten rid of all the dead weight since then and build his team how he wants they are young and only going to get better in future years. Got the best record against top 9 teams for a reason

Fair enough but we again had to come back from a poor position in that game and the team was like a deer in the head lights against Collingwood the next week.
Sure we need more evidence, hopefully this year, but it’s just a concern that I personally have.

 

[go_the_dockers]

He still needs to work out the centre clearance issue.

If we get smashed in the middle in finals, it will be a lot harder to win a game.

 

[Sully90]

He still needs to work out the centre clearance issue.

If we get smashed in the middle in finals, it will be a lot harder to win a game.

It's our biggest structural problem moving forward, but where's the stoppages coach in all this? You'd think he'd be on a hiding to nothing to keep his position next year.

 

[StingBitten]

Absolute shambles some of the mental states of some of the posters in here trying to be the first to remind everyone of their superior knowledge. Back in the clown car for next week.

• 14 wins with 3 to play
• 10 from the last 11(!)
• Best record against the top 9
• Only one loss at home all year
• 4 from 5 comeback wins from being down at 3 qtr time
• Winning in the wet
• Changing momentum mid game

If flags are the goal, then let the man cook with this list he has moulded because we want for nothing but maturity and experience and that just comes with time.

The melts midway through any game we are losing are beyond a joke now and actually appear personal.

Literally won 10 of the last 11 and people are here to slice and side JL the second our gameplay looks poor. We can do better surely.

 

[go_the_dockers]

It's our biggest structural problem moving forward, but where's the stoppages coach in all this? You'd think he'd be on a hiding to nothing to keep his position next year.

That is a tough one. I think the head coach ultimately needs to fix any key issues you have.

I would like us to get a new Senior Assistant coach to take some of the load of JL and potentially solve issues like this.

 

[Cam Payne]

This changes nothing and we'll know in about 10 weeks whether JL is coach next year. Everything else is white noise until the footy starts.

I posted that before round 1. By round 9 and I was almost at the point of starting to say he's not the man and the win against GWS in round 10 had me hold my tongue. It's been up and up since then.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

I also hope the best for JL because it would mean Freo is doing well, it just seems he is slow to react to some very obvious moves. I have said it before, our coach has been great for our culture, has played a large part in stopping the player drain ( that was about one player manager) and is clearly loved/respected by his players.

But, I just feel all of the above means we are having our Ken Hinkley moment, I just don’t think he can beat the best coaches in the finals ( if we make them). There is hope, we are still young and growing but unfortunately that will be the case again next year when we don’t have Sonny, Fyfe and Aish.

This is my feeling too.

I did feel after the Sydney game that going forward with him was just untenable after this many seasons of stagnation.

He's done a bang up job getting us to this point since, and acknowledge that the list is young, but I still have pretty big reservations he can get us over the next hump.

 

[Purple Suit]

I also hope the best for JL because it would mean Freo is doing well, it just seems he is slow to react to some very obvious moves. I have said it before, our coach has been great for our culture, has played a large part in stopping the player drain ( that was about one player manager) and is clearly loved/respected by his players.

But, I just feel all of the above means we are having our Ken Hinkley moment, I just don’t think he can beat the best coaches in the finals ( if we make them). There is hope, we are still young and growing but unfortunately that will be the case again next year when we don’t have Sonny, Fyfe and Aish.

There is a difference from being the hunter to the hunted. I don't think it is a huge issue that he backed his players to turn it around in the 2nd quarter (especially since it was easier to kick at goal at that end with the way the wind was coming in). When they didn't, he made some changes. We only lost the 2nd quarter by a goal so it was a bit of an arm wrestle compared to the first quarter. The game never got out of control and it is better for our confidence being able to win in different ways than just winning from start to finish.

 

[ignoramus]

I wanna leapfrog off this comment to maybe start a more nuanced discussion of how we go about it. I agree with the observation about reserving energy by not going all out all the time, but I think the “two distinct styles” comment doesn’t do justice to the dynamism of the “game plan” (quotation marks because I feel the whole idea of a game plan is misleading to the extent it suggests a simple set of directives to be followed consistently throughout the game) both across a game and across the season.

For starters, the so-called game plan has shifted and developed quite a bit across the season. E.g. we’ve hardly been switching lately. Whether that’s because the oppo has been conceding the short kick, or indicative of a deliberate change in strategy is up for debate. I tend to feel that we’ve been playing what the oppo give us, rather than following some “chip-chip game plan”. Also: remember all the angst at the start of the season about how our handball game can’t stand up to elite pressure? There’s been a lot less of that that lately (first half against Carlton, notwithstanding).

Another thing is that the two distinct styles you’ve identified both relate to possession strategies, in the sense of what to do when we have the ball. There’s also different styles or strategies of play without the ball, and different stoppage strategies. E.g. for a few weeks there we were playing much more one-on-one (e.g. Hawthorn, if my memory serves), and/or zoning only for specific scenarios (e.g. kick out, wing stoppages?).

Identifying differences in stoppage strategy (beyond differences in personnel) is a bit beyond me, but I think in any case they might be a bit more reactive in the sense of being ad hoc solutions to problems encountered as the game unfolds. Hence why we sometimes seem to be getting beat in stoppages early, but then turn it around — which potentially tests the argument that Longmuir is not a good game day coach, and offers another reaon why we don’t smash “lesser” teams from the get go.

The clichéd ways of putting it is either having “a Plan B” or throwing “the magnets” around, though to my mind the former phrase doesn’t capture the ad hoc nature of the adjustments while the later phrase makes it sound as though it’s all to do with personnel, when it’s probably as much if not more to do with positioning and decision making.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I don’t really know much about football so maybe others who have some inside knowledge of semi-professional football can clean up some of my clumsiness. A lot has been made of a change in style since the Saints loss — but is it as wholesale as all that? It feels like we are getting to the point where we can be more flexible and adaptable, adjusting (whether from the get go, or at a certain point in the game) to what the oppo is doing but without threatening team cohesion.

The first comment (and subsequent replies) to this yet again excellent analysis from Smurf_x on reddit say far better what I was trying to get at with the above. It also relates to the question posed above about our stoppage / clearance game. I’m very much as one with dogmatic56’s thinking that it’s all about developing the players, empowering them to problem solve (up to a point) and buuilding different styles into the play.

 

[Stinky Lomax]

That is a tough one. I think the head coach ultimately needs to fix any key issues you have.

I would like us to get a new Senior Assistant coach to take some of the load of JL and potentially solve issues like this.

If the head coach ultimately needs to solve these issues then why bring in a senior assistant to solve those issues?

Issues get solved by the line coach & head coach with input from all coaches if required. If the head coach is stubborn then it doesn’t get the due process it needs to be solved correctly.

Longmuir has often mentioned other coaches in relation to moves or game style so I think the process is solid there.

Sometimes it comes down to education, experience & repetition to work your way through it. They’ll work it out, but it doesn’t happen overnight.

Pretty sure Buckley is a mentor of Longmuirs so no doubt he speaks to him often. I don’t see the need for senior assistant when you have a mentor with the money better spent on hands on coaches.

 

[muckypup]

And to top it all off to those pi55ed off that he is coaching so well, he handled his presser today magnificently.
To the knocker of Jackson starting at first bounce, I think you will find that Carlton started with De Koning as their starter. A leaper, like Jackson. He , at the start would have leapt all over Darcy. Darcy took Pitonett and won out handsomely.
Horses for courses.

His best presser all year.

 

[DocT]

Edited for accuracy

Yeah...nah.
Players have primarily individual reponsibility. And this individual responsibility contributes to the team as a whole.
But if the team as a whole is flat then the person/people primarily responsible for this are those that are reponsible tor the team overall. First and foremost this is the coach.

 

[south beach]

The melts midway through any game we are losing are beyond a joke now and actually appear personal.

Literally won 10 of the last 11 and people are here to slice and side JL the second our gameplay looks poor. We can do better surely.

They are not true Freo supporters. If u only follow a team purely on win loss then you need to look for something else to follow. You love your team no matter what.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

They are not true Freo supporters. If u only follow a team purely on win loss then you need to look for something else to follow. You love your team no matter what.

Appreciate the passion, but this is a bit of a cheer squad nuffy take mate.

You can love and support your club and be critical.

 

[dominguez]

Is there a genuine reason why we are good against top 9 sides and average vs bad sides

Part of it would be teams like Sydney and the Saints go in as under dogs so tag Serong/Clark/Brayshaw where as the top 9 teams back themselves head to head.

 

[dominguez]

They are not true Freo supporters. If u only follow a team purely on win loss then you need to look for something else to follow. You love your team no matter what.

People criticise JLo when we're not playing well because they're fed up. Other than the first 4 years of RTB we've really been an off broadway footy team scrapping to make the 8 for 30 years. We've been rebuilding almost a decade. We need to start winning regularly and the mumbling nail biter doesn't fill many of us with confidence.

I'd love to be proven wrong and it's romantic for a former player whose career was destroyed by injury to lead us to our first flag but I still have my doubts on JLo. It will probably take a strong GF performance to appease those doubts to be honest, we have the strongest list in club history IMO.

 

[Stinky Lomax]

I'd love to be proven wrong and it's romantic for a former player whose career was destroyed by injury to lead us to our first flag but I still have my doubts on JLo. It will probably take a strong GF performance to appease those doubts to be honest

That’s very generous of you.

So a shit GF performance you sack him?

 

[Freomaniac]

I also hope the best for JL because it would mean Freo is doing well, it just seems he is slow to react to some very obvious moves. I have said it before, our coach has been great for our culture, has played a large part in stopping the player drain ( that was about one player manager) and is clearly loved/respected by his players.

But, I just feel all of the above means we are having our Ken Hinkley moment, I just don’t think he can beat the best coaches in the finals ( if we make them). There is hope, we are still young and growing but unfortunately that will be the case again next year when we don’t have Sonny, Fyfe and Aish.

True