Preview Key to success - Hard Edge

[Gethelred]

When I look at Richmond, Hawthorn, Brisbane and Geelong Over the past 20 years, I see clubs coached by hard at it players, nasty players and it has come out in their sides, all this talk about being fair and skilful and by playing by the rules, it’s crap, you play to win and you do what needs to be done to get the job done.

People used to whinge about Essendon, Brisbane, Hawthorn and now Richmond for being dirty, unsociable, for having dirty players, do their fans or historians care? When people talk of the Hawks dominance in the 80s or 10s do they get stuck on the fact they had dirty players or is it about them winning?

I look at Cameron Smith in the NRL
Jordan in the NBA
Rodman in the NBA
Brady in the NFL
Hodge in the AFL

And all I see are winners who would throw the opposition in front of a bus to win for their team, I’m not sure if Cripps and Docherty or many of our players are like this but I agree with you that we need to get a harder edge

My question is, you're looking at the success stories and seeing that, but are you looking at the failures?

How many sides have overegged it? How many sides have had that nasty streak, and gotten absolutely nowhere because - at the end of the day - you've still got to be able to get the ball through the big sticks, out run and out play your opponent. You look at the dying days of Brisbane's run, in 04, 05 and 06; those blokes couldn't do it anymore, so nasty is what they became. Didn't do them much good when they ran into hungrier, younger and better sides.

In a modern context, four teams have tried to add that nasty edge to their games after having talented lists: Melbourne, St Kilda, Richmond and GWS. All three ****ed it up; it took richmond actually becoming good before it became something that benefited them or spoken about.

 

[koutaaa]

We need the killer edge! When we have opposition sides right where we need them, we need to be able to put our foot on their throat and keep going. Too many times we let sides back in because we back off

 

[bmaurizio]

Across the years some embarrassingly, lawlessness acts were perpetrated on the field actually, better not remembered. Incidents such as the bashings of Geoff Southby, Stephen Silvani, Marc Murph, Kate Simpson it goes on totally unprofessional lawless and unexceptionable
EfC had a classic character Phil Carman whom turned on an umpire, all crude dangerous and unacceptable by today’s mentally& culture and so it should be.

 

[DangerousD]

My question is, you're looking at the success stories and seeing that, but are you looking at the failures?

How many sides have overegged it? How many sides have had that nasty streak, and gotten absolutely nowhere because - at the end of the day - you've still got to be able to get the ball through the big sticks, out run and out play your opponent. You look at the dying days of Brisbane's run, in 04, 05 and 06; those blokes couldn't do it anymore, so nasty is what they became. Didn't do them much good when they ran into hungrier, younger and better sides.

In a modern context, four teams have tried to add that nasty edge to their games after having talented lists: Melbourne, St Kilda, Richmond and GWS. All three f’ed it up; it took richmond actually becoming good before it became something that benefited them or spoken about.

I see your point and I agree with your assessment of the Lions, I mentioned the names and clubs I did because they didn’t just win 1 premiership, title, Super Bowl but multiple over many years. My belief that I’ve come to in my life rightly or wrongly is that you can’t just turn on and off a nasty edge, a uncompromising quest for winning above all else and when you have guys like this you will returns have instances of going too far, this idea that some have of wanting nice guys, I just want winners.

When I say this, this doesn’t mean I want blokes on my side that abuse women thus I am against chasing players like Degoey and anyone of that nature, my main point was, give me players that will give us the best chance of winning a grand final and as many as possible, if that means we get players like Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, J Brown, Greene, Goodes, Michael Jordan, Carey, Ablett Snr, Greg Williams, Fev then I’m all for it.

Do you have thoughts on whether nice guys or a team of nice guys can be ruthless, tough and successful or do you need the rough ones, the nasty ones to do some dirty work.

 

[GoBlues!]

Dominator, Wow jones, Keough, Rhys-Jones, F Brown were all equalizers and damn good ones

Jimmy Buckley and Diesel weren’t too bad either.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Our 95 premiership side destroyed Geelong with skill, ruthless determination, pace and flair. Parkin was a tough coach at times but they played hard not dirty that day.
In 87 Rhys Jones well known for being a bit naughty took Dermie also known for it, apart without any nasty stuff.
I remember a day Johnno went a bit overnasty and it was embarrasing but we called him the Dominator for winning the ball not for crunching blokes behind the play.

 

[Faz 2000]

Agree with OP. We’re a team that needs to harden up. We are lousy at holding a lead, go into our shell for prolonged periods, lose our heads for whole quarters, and are embarrassing when “the hunted”. By far our best performances have come as the hunters.

I know all sit here and we’d love to win with sublime skills and clean jumpers and do on, but to be honest, it’s just not really how it works. We definitely need more:

- nastiness
- measured aggression
- ruthlessness
- combativeness
- keeping our heads whilst playing near that edge

Screw trying really hard and losing an athletics contest.

Everyone has a role to play in getting harder:

Eg. Harry McKay should make intercepting defenders regret their decision more - the bloke is enormous!
Eg. The hardest I see SPS run is goal ward chasing an opponent... but Samo, why not line a bloke up and run through him, ala (to pluck a name) Brandon Parfitt? Put the head down and go before the contest happens, not after its lost!
Eg. For all the talk of Kennedy being a big bodied mid, I can’t recall him really banging any bodies or running anyone over.
Eg. For the pack skirting wusses (you know who they are) I’d get the coach to set them some left field KPIs. “Hey LOB, I don’t care how many times you touch the ball today but I want you or an opponent to come off the ground bleeding.”

Disclaimer - not a huge amount of thought has gone into this post, so I’m sure the faithful will argue every point... but the overarching theme is clear. We are soft. Mentally, physically. We will need to get harder to get better.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Nah fu** that. The umps are always against us so lets smash these campaigners and make em earn it

I knew this would pop up in this thread. I'm only a few posts in. For this post you're an idiot.

Colourful image is differential over the last 15 years. The white ladder is since 2012.

Umps don't hate us whatsoever. Only thing I could get out of this is damn West Coast.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

Jimmy Buckley and Diesel weren’t too bad either.

Seems to me the more you have the more premierships you win
Let's get half a dozen and be done with it

 

[Gethelred]

I see your point and I agree with your assessment of the Lions, I mentioned the names and clubs I did because they didn’t just win 1 premiership, title, Super Bowl but multiple over many years. My belief that I’ve come to in my life rightly or wrongly is that you can’t just turn on and off a nasty edge, a uncompromising quest for winning above all else and when you have guys like this you will returns have instances of going too far, this idea that some have of wanting nice guys, I just want winners.

When I say this, this doesn’t mean I want blokes on my side that abuse women thus I am against chasing players like Degoey and anyone of that nature, my main point was, give me players that will give us the best chance of winning a grand final and as many as possible, if that means we get players like Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, J Brown, Greene, Goodes, Michael Jordan, Carey, Ablett Snr, Greg Williams, Fev then I’m all for it.

Do you have thoughts on whether nice guys or a team of nice guys can be ruthless, tough and successful or do you need the rough ones, the nasty ones to do some dirty work.

I think being good is the necessary component to success, not the nastiness. There can and will be people who are successful because they're nasty, but without being at least a little talented they're not getting real far.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect when people look at sport. People remember the winners, and seek to make comparisons between them, try to see some correlation. They see - in our sport and others - thuggishness, ruthlessness and a willingness to hurt, so they see that as the necessary component to success, despite it not always being there. They don't remember the majority of cases which comprise the losers, who were just as ruthless and thuggish (perhaps moreso; there's always more losers than winners in sport) but not as competent.

I'm not an expert on multiple sports; I'm pretty knowledgeable about cricket and footy, and in both you can be a right campaigner or you can be fair. I see that great Australian side of the late 90's/early 2000's, and I see people talk of the mental disintegration tactics they used to demoralize opposition. Funny thing, though; when you've got a batting lineup of Langer, Hayden, Ponting at three, Waugh/Clarke at 5, Hussey at 6, and Gilly at 7, you're going to make a few bowlers look pretty shitty, and when you've got Warne and McGrath, you're going to bowl a lot of opposition out regardless of conditions. Were they great because they were arseholes, or were they great and huge arseholes?

 

[Faz 2000]

Were they great because they were arseholes, or were they great and huge arseholes?

I think mostly part of the greats’ make up is they have screws lose. Either they have ludicrous dedication to working at their craft (McGrath, Djokovic), the genuine (and possibly correct) arrogance that they’re better than everyone and should win (Warne, Carey), the combative do anything to win doggedness (Hodge, Nadal). Or a combo (Michael Jordan).

Players who have talent, but sort of expect it to happen, or will train just “enough”, or can be put off by someone targeting them or would like to win rather than absolutely pathologically need to... will always struggle to compete against the others.

Again, or saying we need a list of nutters... just that wall to wall nice young men with sensible haircuts and good manners DOES lack something. Where’s the bloke who’ll start a melee? Where’s the bloke who will do something mad to ignite the side? Who just won’t be beaten unless their arms fall off? Who does the opposition actually fear?

 

[Arr0w]

Think our players/team will been viewed differently next year

 

[Wickzki]

“Hey LOB, I don’t care how many times you touch the ball today but I want you or an opponent to come off the ground bleeding.”

Good post, mostly, but I wish you hadn't have used LOB as an example here.

He's one of the few blokes, since day one, who I have no qualms in saying that he doesn't mind mixing up the hard stuff.

 

[Gethelred]

Good post, mostly, but I wish you hadn't have used LOB as an example here.

He's one of the few blokes, since day one, who I have no qualms in saying that he doesn't mind mixing up the hard stuff.

WTF's happening here?

I'm not blaming you Wick, but I'm pretty sure that reply to my post is from a while ago, and doesn't mention the post you're quoting. Is BF stuffing up again?

 

[Thrall]

Not interested in playing dirty footy like Hawthorn and Richmond.
Need to play and happy to play, tough, un-compromised, ball winning footy.

Yeh, why would we want to be like the 4 time premiership winners Hawthorn, or the Tigers on the cusp of their 3rd in 4 years, or even the 3peat Lions.

Never seen a soft team win a flag

 

[thylacine60]

Agree with OP. We’re a team that needs to harden up. We are lousy at holding a lead, go into our shell for prolonged periods, lose our heads for whole quarters, and are embarrassing when “the hunted”. By far our best performances have come as the hunters.

I know all sit here and we’d love to win with sublime skills and clean jumpers and do on, but to be honest, it’s just not really how it works. We definitely need more:

- nastiness
- measured aggression
- ruthlessness
- combativeness
- keeping our heads whilst playing near that edge

Screw trying really hard and losing an athletics contest.

Everyone has a role to play in getting harder:

Eg. Harry McKay should make intercepting defenders regret their decision more - the bloke is enormous!
Eg. The hardest I see SPS run is goal ward chasing an opponent... but Samo, why not line a bloke up and run through him, ala (to pluck a name) Brandon Parfitt? Put the head down and go before the contest happens, not after its lost!
Eg. For all the talk of Kennedy being a big bodied mid, I can’t recall him really banging any bodies or running anyone over.
Eg. For the pack skirting wusses (you know who they are) I’d get the coach to set them some left field KPIs. “Hey LOB, I don’t care how many times you touch the ball today but I want you or an opponent to come off the ground bleeding.”

Disclaimer - not a huge amount of thought has gone into this post, so I’m sure the faithful will argue every point... but the overarching theme is clear. We are soft. Mentally, physically. We will need to get harder to get better.

jesus christ, fazz, how much thought went into that?

 

[Blue and Blue]

A lot of thought and its a beauty and I think thats the key point in all of this. Its about how much a player is willing to endure for success. Willing themselves past the pain of physical contact, past the pain of finding breath, past the pain of training harder than they thought they could. That is what a hard edge is.

Not some dog act of violence.

 

[Arr0w]

From here on, key to sustained rise/success

Players in that critical age/experience bracket, 23-27 (next year, first time for a long while)

Speed, with above average footskills, (Williams ans Saad, great needs base)

Mid/Forward - Heaps of these types, none of which will cost more than a 1st rounder

KPD - 18-22 as a replacement for Jones especially if Macreadie can't stay on the park

Ruck/Forward - Another TDK type will do nicely

Gameplan - Additional layers rather than just full on attack mode. (Say what you will about the Cats, but their tempo footy is exceptional. Tigers now using similar tactics in the back half when needed)

We aren't far off from breaking through the next level

 

[Wickzki]

WTF's happening here?

I'm not blaming you Wick, but I'm pretty sure that reply to my post is from a while ago, and doesn't mention the post you're quoting. Is BF stuffing up again?

I quoted from Faz 2000 post #32

I'm not sure how it quoted you. My apologies.

 

[katmanblue]

Bring back Bootsma.

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[katmanblue]

I’d rather clinical dissection with skills never shirk a contest but flowing ball movement fast rebounds
Set ups to allow players to execute in space over lap runners total focus on our zones
Trying hurt or rough up you’re opponents I see as a waste of focus and intent hurt them on the score board
Leave silly frees 50 meter penalties and suspensions for others
The game is very technical and incredibly fast paced the focus needs to be concentrated on decision making and structure the rest is a distraction

Works for Cotchin

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[katmanblue]

Not sure you can retrofit tough.

There's a bolt on kit. I saw the infomercial.

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[SurreyBlue]

Yeh, why would we want to be like the 4 time premiership winners Hawthorn, or the Tigers on the cusp of their 3rd in 4 years, or even the 3peat Lions.

Never seen a soft team win a flag

I don't think you understand the meaning of 'dirty' compared to 'tough' football.

Dirty football is behind the play, intend to hurt or remove a player from the contest type of exercise. Richmond have played dirty football for 3 years and only this year are the umpires picking them up on it. Hawthorn and even Essendon have it as part of their DNA.
Brisbane as you say, played 'tough' contested football. Successful CFC teams have always played tough football and never took a backward step. I agree we need to get to that stage!

We don't need to play dirty football to win premierships but we do need to play 'tough, uncompromising, head over the ball, your turn to go' football.

 

[BlueShift]

Yeh, why would we want to be like the 4 time premiership winners Hawthorn, or the Tigers on the cusp of their 3rd in 4 years, or even the 3peat Lions.

Never seen a soft team win a flag

A soft team can't win the flag, but they don't need to be thugs either.

Take Geelong for example, they were never overly nasty like Hawks or Richmond but still managed to set up a dynasty because they were tough at the contest, tough on the mental side of things, and skillful when it mattered.

We're improving at being tough at the ball (See Cripps, Walsh, Willo, etc) but still need some work. We're further away from the mental toughness required really.

 

[Dipper3_]

one the greatest football managers, Jose Mourinho, said that “teams of good guys never win”

The idea of being a dirty club isn’t right, but being a team that is ruthless and has measured toughness is something that can be linked directly to a teams success.

we lack this severely at the moment.