Lance Armstrong formally charged with doping

[blackcat]

+ Vader, look at the treatment Rasmussen got in 07 when he had the Tour wrapped up and in his back pocket. Apart from Pantani at the Giro one year, this is unique and unheard of.

Plus, Armstrong, Gorski, and Weisel bribed Vergbruggen in 1999 for the corticosteroid. Number bandied about in half a million green.

So Armstrong was unique, and was not unique in being singled out. Others have had worse treatment while in their primes in the sport, and made to sit out 2 years.

 

[Belnakor]

Primarily, Armstrong is viewed as the ring leader - the one who forced or coerced his teammates to take drugs and who supplied them with the drugs. That coercion took many forms, some overt, some less so.

Secondly, he is viewed as having conducted a conspiracy to cheat and avoid getting caught.

No worse than any of the other team leaders who would have been involved in similiar ways to avoid detection. Lance is paying the price for the way he went about it, not the actual crime.

 

[blackcat]

No worse than any of the other team leaders who would have been involved in similiar ways to avoid detection. Lance is paying the price for the way he went about it, not the actual crime.

no, lance never paid the price for his crimes, cos he bribed on three occasions

3 positives, with bribes.

99 Tour cortico
2001 TdSuisse epo
retrospective 99 Tour epo

 

[Belnakor]

no, lance never paid the price for his crimes, cos he bribed on three occasions

3 positives, with bribes.

99 Tour cortico
2001 TdSuisse epo
retrospective 99 Tour epo

the 2001 epo one he wouldn't cover off in the interview, not sure the full story there?

retrospective 99 who gives a shit.

 

[blackcat]

you said he was no different.

I am saying, I agree, he doped and got caught. no different to the rest.

but he was different in the way the authorities gave him a pass

and he gave em a bribe as quid pro quo

 

[b0ydman]

the 2001 epo one he wouldn't cover off in the interview, not sure the full story there?

retrospective 99 who gives a shit.

Admitedly he can't come out and say certain things

for instance, he can't say "yeah betsy was right that really did happen in the hospital room" because those doctors signed an affadavit saying it never happened. Of course its on the public record how much money was donated to that hospital departmenr. now those doctors would likely be struck off the register and prosecuted today, for something they probably received instruction and heat to sign- possibly against their wishes- so he can't say some things

Ditto UCI, he might take innocent people under the bus. and Lance doesn't care about innocent people, which is what is so fascinating about this

We have Atilla the Hun meets Vlad the Impaler, who lives 1000 years later and rode a bike instead of a horse with a speak.


Donsman4Eva, I can't help but feel sorry for how naieve and young you are. You are so young, so young.
Please go learn up. Maybe read Tyler's book, its got pictures so its an easy read.
Then come back and write an essay as to why he deserves to have every book thrown at him, be put in stocks and have cyclists who's careers HE had ended, able to slap him.

Lance wasn't just another cyclists. He wasn't just a member of US Postal or Discovery. He WAS the team

Finally, if you think he brought the sport to prominance in USA, can I point you to a film called Breaking Away, and then introduce you to a man called Greg Lemond. Absolutely it wasn't household, but Greg was the leap forward, Lance came behind

 

[monty1104]

.


Donsman4Eva, I can't help but feel sorry for how naieve and young you are. You are so young, so young.
Please go learn up. Maybe read Tyler's book, its got pictures so its an easy read.
Then come back and write an essay as to why he deserves to have every book thrown at him, be put in stocks and have cyclists who's careers HE had ended, able to slap him.

I don't mind being called naive, because honestly, I was. I grew up watching Armstrong, so in my heart of hearts, I didn't want to believe he cheated. But do not patronise me. You don't know me at all. To insinuate I am a young, uneducated person really hits a nerve. Have a crack at my point of view, fine. everyone is entitled to their opinion. But do not personally attack me. I have been through more than most people care to even think about in my life, so to have a go at me without knowing me is just unacceptable, and disappointing. I would not even expect the biggest trolls on Bigfooty to stoop to your level. Pathetic.

 

[Belnakor]

you said he was no different.

I am saying, I agree, he doped and got caught. no different to the rest.

but he was different in the way the authorities gave him a pass

and he gave em a bribe as quid pro quo

for mine, don't hate the player, hate the game.

the authorities gave him a pass - that is their issue, not LA's.

LA was doing what everyone else on the tour was doing. he was just a complete prick about it, thats the main issue.

 

[Vader]

+ Vader, look at the treatment Rasmussen got in 07 when he had the Tour wrapped up and in his back pocket. Apart from Pantani at the Giro one year, this is unique and unheard of.

The difference is that the TdF is run by the ASO - an organisation with relatively good credentials when it comes to booting the dopers as soon as they are identified. The news about Rasmussen broke mid-race and he was out on his ear instantly.

Compare that with the treatment of Contador in 2010. The news about his positive didn't break until after the race - and the UCI deliberately sat on it, hoping it would go away, until the media got wind of it. The UCI were hoping that his positive could be swept under the carpet (the way that Armstrong's had been), until the media made this untenable. Much has been made of the delay between his positive and the final CAS decision - the UCI's inactivity was responsible for roughly 5 months of that delay.

 

[Vader]

For the record, here are the charges that USADA levelled against him (taken from the Reasoned Argument document):
The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong was sanctioned include:

(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and/or masking agents.
(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and/or masking agents.
(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and/or corticosteroids.
(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and/or cortisone.
(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule violations.
(6) Aggravating circumstances (including multiple rule violations and participated in a sophisticated scheme and conspiracy to dope, encourage and assist others to dope and cover up rule violations) justifying a period of ineligibility greater than the standard sanction.

Most riders have only been done for violations (1) and (2). If that were all the charges he faced, then he would have received the standard 2-year ban from competition. Unfortunately for him, that was just the beginning...

(5) and (6) are the reason why they whacked him with the big stick - he was effectively charged with running the most professional doping program in history. Interestingly, the only doping programs that LA himself found to compare it with were the Eastern European state run doping programs of the 1970's and 1980's. That's some pretty hefty company that he himself was comparing his own offences with.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Plus doping in France is illegal and you have criminal penalties not just sports penalties, so ASO legal team would have recommended a quick exit.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

...

(5) and (6) are the reason why they whacked him with the big stick - he was effectively charged with running the most professional doping program in history. Interestingly, the only doping programs that LA himself found to compare it with were the Eastern European state run doping programs of the 1970's and 1980's. That's some pretty hefty company that he himself was comparing his own offences with.

This is where Armstrong got it slightly wrong. From my post on the previous page

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

Statement From USADA CEO Travis T. Tygart Regarding The U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team Doping Conspiracy

Statement released 10-10-12 at 9:30 AM Mountain Time
October 10, 2012

Today, we are sending the ‘Reasoned Decision’ in the Lance Armstrong case and supporting information to the Union Cycliste International (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), and the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC). The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.
.....
So Travis Tygart never accused him of being as sophisisticated and professionalised and successful as the Eastern Germans and other eastern bloc countries accross the board of their entire sports. He said he was more than the East Germans in cycling and that is probably a fair call, although its hard to imagine that taking kids and giving them pills at 13 and 14 after the talent identification program was less sophisticated than Lance.

 

[blackcat]

The difference is that the TdF is run by the ASO - an organisation with relatively good credentials when it comes to booting the dopers as soon as they are identified. The news about Rasmussen broke mid-race and he was out on his ear instantly.

Compare that with the treatment of Contador in 2010. The news about his positive didn't break until after the race - and the UCI deliberately sat on it, hoping it would go away, until the media got wind of it. The UCI were hoping that his positive could be swept under the carpet (the way that Armstrong's had been), until the media made this untenable. Much has been made of the delay between his positive and the final CAS decision - the UCI's inactivity was responsible for roughly 5 months of that delay.

under Lebalnce and Clerc. But then Madame Amaury wanted to sell, and Armstrong, Hog, Verbuggen wanted to get their mitts on it. Speculation 2006 Pierto busts were a tool to drive the price down.

Armstrong got Clerc ousted cos he offered promise to off an ambiguity to the doping enforcement, where previously there was no abiguity, it was dope til you drop. Armstrong and the cabal encouraged Amaury to jettison Clerc.

Vader, are you the Vader from the Paceline or Cyclingforums, I think the Paceline Vader may have be ThoughtForFood, one of my favourite posters on the internet. my handle was thunder I think.

 

[blackcat]

nah, A

for mine, don't hate the player, hate the game.

the authorities gave him a pass - that is their issue, not LA's.

LA was doing what everyone else on the tour was doing. he was just a complete prick about it, thats the main issue.

nah, StrongArm had captured the authorities.

He was more than Le Patron of the peloton. He was THE authority of the sport.

 

[blackcat]

So Travis Tygart never accused him of being as sophisisticated and professionalised and successful as the Eastern Germans and other eastern bloc countries accross the board of their entire sports. He said he was more than the East Germans in cycling and that is probably a fair call, although its hard to imagine that taking kids and giving them pills at 13 and 14 after the talent identification program was less sophisticated than Lance.

you are placing a structural impossibility as your metric.

cycling, a peripatetic sport, notoriously hard to dope, when you need your drug couriers, and team doctors (human hypodermic technicians)

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

you are placing a structural impossibility as your metric.

cycling, a peripatetic sport, notoriously hard to dope, when you need your drug couriers, and team doctors (human hypodermic technicians)

Fair enough, especially after I looked up what peripatetic meant.

 

[Vader]

Vader, are you the Vader from the Paceline or Cyclingforums, I think the Paceline Vader may have be ThoughtForFood, one of my favourite posters on the internet. my handle was thunder I think.

Nope.. Have never posted on any cycling forum, under any name. I'm the same old Vader that's been posting on the Adelaide Board for the better part of 10 years.

I have no competitive background in cycling. I first became interested in the sport when I turned on the TV late one night and discovered the TdF on SBS - I watched as Vino attempted a breakaway up a climb, only to be chased down by his own teammates. From that time I was hooked, barely missing a stage since then (though I very rarely watch the final stage into Paris, which is usually so boring that I fall asleep while watching it). My knowledge is gained by watching, listening and reading various sources, using my own judgement as to who and what I choose to believe.

 

[Belnakor]

btw the 2001 tour "test failure" anyone think that was just BS and he didn't actually fail it - he just told it to the team to make them less risk adverse?

 

[b0ydman]

I don't mind being called naive, because honestly, I was. I grew up watching Armstrong, so in my heart of hearts, I didn't want to believe he cheated. But do not patronise me. You don't know me at all. To insinuate I am a young, uneducated person really hits a nerve. Have a crack at my point of view, fine. everyone is entitled to their opinion. But do not personally attack me. I have been through more than most people care to even think about in my life, so to have a go at me without knowing me is just unacceptable, and disappointing. I would not even expect the biggest trolls on Bigfooty to stoop to your level. Pathetic.

Okay.
first, I apologise.
2. Bro. If you want to play on anonymous web sites, you need to grow a thicker skin.

I don't have time to educate fanbois. Sorry, it should be obvious what a creep, jerk, and kingpin lance is.

I see your suck-whole sycophantism as an apologetic.

Yes, you are very entitled to present your case.

here is mine. He is a nasty human being who preyed on suckers like you, and innocent people suffered under his hand

 

[blue gunslinger]

for mine, don't hate the player, hate the game.

the authorities gave him a pass - that is their issue, not LA's.

LA was doing what everyone else on the tour was doing. he was just a complete prick about it, thats the main issue.

look to the future
he had my next BIG event on his schedule
I have busted my ass for a long time
I will not accept competing on the same track as a cheat
Not without swinging a punch
hate the game
no way it is MY game as I earned it
he steps in on my territory
I hate the player
publicity
every participant there will feel the same
it is not the hollywood of warnie
those competing will do our sport the honour and disrespect lance
we are not the level playing field he speaks of
we are the ones who work hard every day
he has not earned the right to be on our level
he has lost his right to compete with a 16 year old kid
he lost everything
he has NO PASS

 

[KnobHead]

btw the 2001 tour "test failure" anyone think that was just BS and he didn't actually fail it - he just told it to the team to make them less risk adverse?

The uci was corrupt to the bone back then. Also pretty sure the head of the laboratory claimed he was asked by the head of the uci to meet with armstrong & bruynel to tell them
how to beat epo tests.

There's also the butt cream incident

If anything, I reckon there were more cover-ups that no one knows about

Back then, armstrong was too big to bring down . The cancer survivor who won the tdf.

 

[Sanders]

The uci was corrupt to the bone back then. Also pretty sure the head of the laboratory claimed he was asked by the head of the uci to meet with armstrong & bruynel to tell them
how to beat epo tests.

Don't forget the reason Pharmstrong passed so many tests initially is that there was no test for epo

 

[blackcat]

The uci was corrupt to the bone back then. Also pretty sure the head of the laboratory claimed he was asked by the head of the uci to meet with armstrong & bruynel to tell them
how to beat epo tests.

There's also the butt cream incident

If anything, I reckon there were more cover-ups that no one knows about

Back then, armstrong was too big to bring down . The cancer survivor who won the tdf.

right on the AIG "too big to fail".

but re:corrupt to the core/bone, they are no different to domestically (here) and the IOC and FIFA

and justin charles was he only guy who was positive to steroids. yeah right

that is why collins took him under his oversight in his 11 match ban, because he knew JC was holding the can for alot of others caught and sending the frighteners out to the others...

and what about Aus Swimming in 98ish covering up a positive?

Cycling has always known, Aus cycling I am talking about, that its trackies have doped to the eyeballs.

the pat jonker interview by tomalaris was hilarious, for a start jonker could not put two words together that made sense, but Tomalaris is a d!ck$hit and thought he was a bearer of wisdom. Getting implicated conflated with implemented every time, talking about phinney and tejay van garderen as next gen and clean and saying tejay would be americas next tdf winner and he was clean.

risible

then toma says when he wrapped up in the talkover, that was pat jonker, great insight and truth

 

[b0ydman]

and what about Aus Swimming in 98ish covering up a positive?

you've pushed it too far and you dont know what you are talking about

Sam Riley said she ate tainted steak

If thats good enough for her, its good enough for me, and should be for you

Of course, then there was Ian Thorpe...

 

[iluvparis]

Sam Riley said she ate tainted steak

Obviously good mates with Contador.