Let's go Australia, Olympics thread

[CrowsB4hoes]

Why?

Because she still has physical attributes of a man

 

[FR0GGY]

Because she still has physical attributes of a man

Then again Serena has been competing for years.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Then again Serena has been competing for years.

I'm sure there are more intersex female athletes than we realize, and Serena may be one. It's all levels isn't it. Some women produce low amounts of testosterone some high. Then you have this woman where it's just out of the park to the point reasonable questions are being made because it goes fundamentally against the very reason why we have a separate female competition from the men.

 

[adelaidecrows]

Ryan Lochte accused of lying about being robbed at gun point. I don't know what his motive was to create a story other then perhaps as a money making tool. Funny how he has already returned to the states as well. What a moron.

 

[NikkiNoo]

After the idiots at London cancelled the FIG gala of gymnastics, it is nice to see it back here at Rio, but ugh the 7 coverage is ads and updates and ads and occasionally some routines. It's nice to see the other sports within gymnastics that aren't in the Olympics and to see the relaxed winners from the Artistic competition. (On 7 two if anyone cares)

 

[jenny61_99]

Because she still has physical attributes of a man

She has a vagina and internal testes. She was raised a woman. She IS a woman. End argument.

 

[jenny61_99]

Ryan Lochte accused of lying about being robbed at gun point. I don't know what his motive was to create a story other then perhaps as a money making tool. Funny how he has already returned to the states as well. What a moron.

Robert Allenby anyone?

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

She has a vagina and internal testes. She was raised a woman. She IS a woman. End argument.

the line between man and woman is not so clear cut these days. There are people who would be offended by your comment.

 

[Scorpus]

She has a vagina and internal testes. She was raised a woman. She IS a woman. End argument.

Whether she was raised a woman or not is irrelevant when discussing sport. It's about whether she has an unfair physical advantage over her competitors due to hyperandrogenism.

Any sort of physical advantage should be examined to determine whether it's fair for competitions. For example, if a swimmer was born with mutated feet that gave them flippers, should they be allowed to compete against other athletes?

 

[jbanger]

Funny how he has already returned to the states as well. What a moron.

I thought they said on the news this morning that their passports had been confiscated?

 

[NikkiNoo]

Whether she was raised a woman or not is irrelevant when discussing sport. It's about whether she has an unfair physical advantage over her competitors due to hyperandrogenism.

Any sort of physical advantage should be examined to determine whether it's fair for competitions. For example, if a swimmer was born with mutated feet that gave them flippers, should they be allowed to compete against other athletes?

Yes. It's as simple as that. Some people are taller than others, some are shorter. Where do you draw the line?

 

[Scorpus]

Yes. It's as simple as that. Some people are taller than others, some are shorter. Where do you draw the line?

I'm not sure, that's up to the Olympic committee. In the case of Semenya they need to present evidence that hyperandrogenism actually gives an unfair advantage, which they haven't managed to do so yet, so she's fine to compete

 

[NikkiNoo]

the line between man and woman is not so clear cut these days. There are people who would be offended by your comment.

Not her, I bet, and that is all that counts. Does she think she is a woman? If so, then she is. That is how simple and clear cut it is these days.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Whether she was raised a woman or not is irrelevant when discussing sport. It's about whether she has an unfair physical advantage over her competitors due to hyperandrogenism.

Any sort of physical advantage should be examined to determine whether it's fair for competitions. For example, if a swimmer was born with mutated feet that gave them flippers, should they be allowed to compete against other athletes?

I like to look at it like this.

The Men's is actually an open competition. So your mutant webbed feet man could compete. As could Caster Semanya. As could any female really. It's open. But it's men that compete in it because they have the physical attributes to be competitive.

So women could compete, they create a women's division. So that those who possess those non-masculine attributes that put them at a disadvantage have a fair playing field in which to compete.

Semanya doesn't possess those non-masculine attributes. Therefore she doesn't qualify for the women's.

Else why have a women's comp? It would just be as arbitrary as having a comp for left and right handers, or blondes separate to brunettes.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Yes. It's as simple as that. Some people are taller than others, some are shorter. Where do you draw the line?

They don't have seperate comps for tall or short people though do they?

 

[Scorpus]

Not her, I bet, and that is all that counts. Does she think she is a woman? If so, then she is. That is how simple and clear cut it is these days.

I agree that this is what counts in general, but what gender someone identifies as doesn't (or shouldn't) matter for competition sport.

Otherwise you would run into the issue of someone physically born as a man, but transgender and identifying as a woman, entering womens' events and dominating due to their male body

 

[MarcusP2]

Whether she was raised a woman or not is irrelevant when discussing sport. It's about whether she has an unfair physical advantage over her competitors due to hyperandrogenism.

Any sort of physical advantage should be examined to determine whether it's fair for competitions. For example, if a swimmer was born with mutated feet that gave them flippers, should they be allowed to compete against other athletes?

Michael Phelps (apparently) has hypermobile ankles that allow his feet to act as flippers. He also has hypermobile elbows and hips to aid his kicking and butterfly stroke. So yes, they are allowed and they dominate (far more than Semenya might).

 

[SydCrow]

Whether she was raised a woman or not is irrelevant when discussing sport. It's about whether she has an unfair physical advantage over her competitors due to hyperandrogenism.

Any sort of physical advantage should be examined to determine whether it's fair for competitions. For example, if a swimmer was born with mutated feet that gave them flippers, should they be allowed to compete against other athletes?

Phelps has an unfair physical advantage if he has Marfan syndrome. Should he be allowed to compete?

 

[MarcusP2]

I like to look at it like this.

The Men's is actually an open competition. So your mutant webbed feet man could compete. As could Caster Semanya. As could any female really. It's open. But it's men that compete in it because they have the physical attributes to be competitive.

So women could compete, they create a women's division. So that those who possess those non-masculine attributes that put them at a disadvantage have a fair playing field in which to compete.

Semanya doesn't possess those non-masculine attributes. Therefore she doesn't qualify for the women's.

Else why have a women's comp? It would just be as arbitrary as having a comp for left and right handers, or blondes separate to brunettes.

What 'non-masculine attributes' doesn't she possess? She's nowhere close to being competitive in the men's (15 seconds outside world record time).

 

[Scorpus]

Phelps has an unfair physical advantage if he has Marfan syndrome. Should he be allowed to compete?

Is it that unfair though? Phelps doesn't hold the world record for most of the events he competes in, and those he does have the world record in, he is not significantly ahead of other competitors.

It's the same case with Semenya. She's not better than the best women, there is no evidence to support her hyperandrogenism gives her a significant advantage, so she is allowed to compete

 

[jenny61_99]

I'm not sure, that's up to the Olympic committee. In the case of Semenya they need to present evidence that hyperandrogenism actually gives an unfair advantage, which they haven't managed to do so yet, so she's fine to compete

This poor woman has been subjected to ridiculous amounts of scrutiny, and her body poked and prodded because of a physical anomaly from birth. She registers higher than normal testosterone limits - for a female, but does not even remotely compare to male athletes levels or times etc. I find it offensive that she has to prove that her natural born body is an unfair advantage, I can't even imagine how it makes HER feel.

 

[Tex200]

Yes. It's as simple as that. Some people are taller than others, some are shorter. Where do you draw the line?

Well if you had a competition for people that are under 180cm, then people who are over 180cm can't compete. Thus the line is drawn.

 

[jenny61_99]

Not her, I bet, and that is all that counts. Does she think she is a woman? If so, then she is. That is how simple and clear cut it is these days.

This case isn't a case of a Trans woman wanting to compete with other women though. I do believe there have been instances where this has in fact been allowed (given that the hormone treatments they receive, reduce their testosterone levels significantly). Caster has always been a woman it's not like she's changed sides half way through her life or anything.

 

[GreyCrow]

There is some discussion in this thread about Semenya

A post by wallaby

Average range for Testosterone in adult males - 250-1050 ng/dl (nano-grams/decilitre)
Average range for Testosterone in adult females - 15-70 ng/dl

So males have between somewhere 15-20 times the testosterone of females.

Is Testosterone an advantage?

"The scientists and physicians that worked with the IAAF to arrive at the 10 nmol/L testosterone limit found that hyperandrogenism was 140 times more prevalent in elite female athletes than the general population." Yep. It's an advantage for athletes.

Semenya is reported as having between 3 to 4 times the level of testosterone 'allowed' for female athletes (obviously, the 'allowable' limit is pretty difficult to determine due to the large natural variation in people). However, even if she does have this hugely elevated level, she has nowhere near enough to compete with men. She probably falls in the range that would be a serious medical concern for males. So where does she fit in as a competitor?

The fact is, since the hyperandrogenous intersex athletes no longer have to take medications to lower their testosterone to a 'legal limit', it is possible the more than half of the Womens 800m final at Rio will be transgender - and likely to take all the medals.

If you are going to separate sports by some arbitrary limits, those limits have to be defended. A weedy, undeveloped 12-year old kid still has to play against other 12-year-olds. A boxer who is 99% physiologically a lightweight, but has trouble keeping his weight down doesn't get a free pass to carry more weight.
Women's sports is separated from men's sports. We have to agree on what makes men and women different at sports. Testosterone levels seem to be one (of several - it's not all testosterone). For people like Semenya - yeah, that's tough. No one's stopping her from competing - she just can't compete in the testosterone-limited division - ie women.

 

[hey shorty]

Gee Bolt looked easy in his semi. Had a chat and a smile with De Grasse.