Let's set the standard on Big Footy...

[BlueGibbs2011]

Nice post. Like most things in life, things are just not that simple Kramer. Carlton like most clubs have their fair share of rabble supporters, and they need to be fed after bad losses; and the only thing they want to eat is 'the players' .

I've racked my brain and then it hit me. Compromise!! I think I could broker a deal. Everyone could agree to increase the standard of player related posts in return for......well blood. The blood of a man called Hackland.

Without a word of a lie, he is the most insipid excuse of a player who is sucking Carlton's finances dry . You want proof!! I'll give you proof lol. I put up a post in the trade forum with Ackland as trade bait; and best offer I recieved was a trailer load of horse manure!

What do you say Kramer, could you give a little for the greater good. In return for better posts, could you offer up a sacrifice in Hackland? The rabble could survive on him alone - I mean he offers soo much sustinence .

 

[thylacine60]

Nice post. Like most things in life, things are just not that simple Kramer. Carlton like most clubs have their fair share of rabble supporters, and they need to be fed after bad losses; and the only thing they want to eat is 'the players' .

I've racked my brain and then it hit me. Compromise!! I think I could broker a deal. Everyone could agree to increase the standard of player related posts in return for......well blood. The blood of a man called Hackland.

Without a word of a lie, he is the most insipid excuse of a player who is sucking Carlton's finances dry . You want proof!! I'll give you proof lol. I put up a post in the trade forum with Ackland as trade bait; and best offer I recieved was a trailer load of horse manure!

What do you say Kramer, could you give a little for the greater good. In return for better posts, could you offer up a sacrifice in Hackland? The rabble could survive on him alone - I mean he offers soo much sustinence .

default. standard. set.

 

[nutcase888]

while bagging individual players isn't my style why on earth would Ackland be bothered if someone on an internet forum refers to him as 'Hackland'. If that truly bothers him then he should be off to see a psych straight away. Negative comments are something that all adults have to learn to deal with and if u can't handle the heat then stay out of the kitchen.

 

[blues4flag]

while bagging individual players isn't my style why on earth would Ackland be bothered if someone on an internet forum refers to him as 'Hackland'. If that truly bothers him then he should be off to see a psych straight away. Negative comments are something that all adults have to learn to deal with and if u can't handle the heat then stay out of the kitchen.

I'd be surprised if Ackland was too bothered with it at all, but some of the posts on here portray genuine hate - and I wouldn't be surprised if at least some 19/20 years old exposed to that wouldn't be adversely affected.

 

[Thrawn]

I'd be surprised if Ackland was too bothered with it at all, but some of the posts on here portray genuine hate - and I wouldn't be surprised if at least some 19/20 years old exposed to that wouldn't be adversely affected.

The reality is, most of the players wouldn't care. Especially those who earn lots of $$$. They are the ones who are playing for the club, putting their bodies on the line and getting paid a lot of money for something they love and enjoy.

I don't think they'd be too affected from people who never played a game of football in their lives, let alone left their computer chairs.

 

[nutcase888]

I'd be surprised if Ackland was too bothered with it at all, but some of the posts on here portray genuine hate - and I wouldn't be surprised if at least some 19/20 years old exposed to that wouldn't be adversely affected.

if they went to public shool they would have copped alot worse in the schoolyard. Seriously at 18 and 19 they are men. They should have learnt to deal with this by now and any player that is adversly affected by anything written on big footy has big problems IMO.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

if they went to public shool they would have copped alot worse in the schoolyard. Seriously at 18 and 19 they are men. They should have learnt to deal with this by now and any player that is adversly affected by anything written on big footy has big problems IMO.

That's just your opinion though. If you don't know those players, you can't diagnose their problems.

What if those players thought that the weight of public sentiment being against them would impact on whether the club kept them or not. I am sure that some players become sacrificial lambs at delisting time to appease rabid supporter groups looking for changes after a poor season. Some club CEOs read these boards I assure you, and from time to time weight of opinion may force change.

Whether that change be necessary or not, you could certainly understand a player on the verge of being sacked, being upset about the extra motivation the supporters provide to the club. It's their dream for Christ's sake. I reckon it is far worse to get so close to your dream or to get a taste of your dream but having it taken away, than it would be to sit behind a computer and to have never had expectations of such a dream in the first place.

Didn't Rhett Baynes commit suicide? How would the supporters feel if the weight of their opinion cost him his career and lead him to depression? Not our fault directly, but we certainly wouldn't have helped. Baynes is an example by the way, I am unsure as to why he did what he did but depression was a factor IIRC.

 

[nutcase888]

That's just your opinion though. If you don't know those players, you can't diagnose their problems.

What if those players thought that the weight of public sentiment being against them would impact on whether the club kept them or not. I am sure that some players become sacrificial lambs at delisting time to appease rabid supporter groups looking for changes after a poor season. Some club CEOs read these boards I assure you, and from time to time weight of opinion may force change.

Whether that change be necessary or not, you could certainly understand a player on the verge of being sacked, being upset about the extra motivation the supporters provide to the club. It's their dream for Christ's sake. I reckon it is far worse to get so close to your dream or to get a taste of your dream but having it taken away, than it would be to sit behind a computer and to have never had expectations of such a dream in the first place.

Didn't Rhett Baynes commit suicide? How would the supporters feel if the weight of their opinion cost him his career and lead him to depression? Not our fault directly, but we certainly wouldn't have helped. Baynes is an example by the way, I am unsure as to why he did what he did but depression was a factor IIRC.

Sure i understand your point, but how is that diffrent to what anyone else goes through in life? How about poor Dennis last year? How much negativity and vitriol was directed aginst him? how about Ray Chamberlain after a recent Blues match against Adelaide? The point is that most people can handle this and the ones that can't IMO must have deep problems that maybe they should address before they step into a field that is going to put them in the public light and which many people are passionate about.
And once again how do u police it and protect people form this negative sentiment. As you humourously demonstrated earlier in this thread u would be making the same point just all dressed up nice and warm and fluffy. Personally if it was me I would prefer people to be upfront and direct in regards to what they are saying.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

And once again how do u police it and protect people form this negative sentiment. As you humourously demonstrated earlier in this thread u would be making the same point just all dressed up nice and warm and fluffy. Personally if it was me I would prefer people to be upfront and direct in regards to what they are saying.

Negative sentiments is not the same as abusive vitriol. Coaching express negative sentiments all the time. They play back videos and show players their mistakes, they give them an earful on the phone for poor pieces of play during the game itself. Being negative is not the issue.

I seem to remember that David Pittman was none to please about Malcolm Blight labelling him the worst ruckman ever.

These are just words to those who utter them and those that read them. They might be a sum of a players worst fears though. Nobody is saying to not call a spade a spade but let's stay away from abusive words that don't accurately portray a situation.

What is a dud anyway, even in footballing terms? We are talking about players that made it to the top 700 footballers in the entire country. None of them are duds. Some are unable to produce consistent football at the highest level but by virtue of being picked up, they stood head and shoulders above thousands of others.

 

[nutcase888]

well your entitled to your opinion ODN but u haven't convinced me. I just don't see what the problem is. they are big boys and they need to learn how to deal with this IMO. of course if u did what u were suggesting it would have to be consistent and not just protecting players. u would have to protect coaches, umpires, club officials, sportswriters that fans don't like (Caroline WIlson, and Mark Robinson etc) and other posters on BF who are continually ridiculed for their opinions.

For example using your argument Caroline Wilson if she reads the comments about her being a poor journalist could make her anxious about losing her job. Or when people call her a man she may begin to think she is not attractive. Hence we could go down a path of censoring all vitriol and insulting remarks or alternatively we could teach people how to deal with it.

that is just my opinion however, FWIW i find it a very interesting discussion.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

This is great, good points on boths sides, can you give me 5 minutes to get some popcorn and i'll sit in for the evening.

PS
Nutcase888...you don't seem to have any nut about you.

 

[BlueYoss]

PS Nutcase888...you don't seem to have any nut about you.

Mention the word Pagan and you will

 

[thylacine60]

Mention the word Pagan and you will

We put Pagan back in charge now we'd be in a perfect position to make a run at the flag in 2010.














That sort of thing?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

well your entitled to your opinion ODN but u haven't convinced me. I just don't see what the problem is. they are big boys and they need to learn how to deal with this IMO.

Hmm, in countries with no gun control, people that feel bullied, harrassed, belittled go to schools and blow everybody away. I wonder if anybody told them to learn to deal with it. That is probably the main problem with the freedom of speech concept, too many people defending their right to abuse others, rather than defend the rights of those who are being abused. Freedom of speech is about having the right to express an opinion, not about the right to be spiteful and abusive. We can still have freedom of speech but guide people to express it in a more respectful way. ____ed if I know when respect became a dirty word around here, respect for oneself and respect for others.

of course if u did what u were suggesting it would have to be consistent and not just protecting players. u would have to protect coaches, umpires, club officials, sportswriters that fans don't like (Caroline WIlson, and Mark Robinson etc) and other posters on BF who are continually ridiculed for their opinions.

For example using your argument Caroline Wilson if she reads the comments about her being a poor journalist could make her anxious about losing her job. Or when people call her a man she may begin to think she is not attractive. Hence we could go down a path of censoring all vitriol and insulting remarks or alternatively we could teach people how to deal with it.

On the surface, my main interest is our own players. I would think the hurt factor would be worse if someone who is supposed to support you, abused you.

On a lower level, sure perhaps we are guilty of double standards if we don't apply it to all players. Umpires I can also see a need for. They cop it worse than the players do. By and large though, we lash out when we feel we are wronged. Our own players don't wrong us, they just are not up to it on occasion.

Journalists however make a living out of being critical. Live by the sword, die by the sword ... within reason. Surely we don't need to protect Smith when he calls the Carlton supporters names?

that is just my opinion however, FWIW i find it a very interesting discussion.

Well thank god, we can still have civil conversations around here huh? It works despite disagreement because we aren't resorting to abuse. If I abuse you, you may not like the discussion as much as you do. There may be a message in there just quietly.

 

[BlueYoss]

That sort of thing?

Without re-opening any Pandora's boxes that took a lot of time and effort by many to close, let's just say that nutcase888's opinions on both DP's -ex-coach and current pres (no, not THAT DP HBF!!! ) were very much against the grain of public opinion on our board.

If your interest is genuinely piqued, go research the matter, surely you have the time

I'd start my narrowing my search to closed threads...

 

[BlueYoss]

Hmm, in countries with no gun control, people that feel bullied, harrassed, belittled go to schools and blow everybody away. I wonder if anybody told them to learn to deal with it. That is probably the main problem with the freedom of speech concept, too many people defending their right to abuse others, rather than defend the rights of those who are being abused. Freedom of speech is about having the right to express an opinion, not about the right to be spiteful and abusive. We can still have freedom of speech but guide people to express it in a more respectful way. ____ed if I know when respect became a dirty word around here, respect for oneself and respect for others.

While I totally agree with you in terms of there being a right way and a wrong way to go about or express things, I still think the matter has been blown way out of proportion. Specifically, in terms of the potential effect abuse on BF can have on a player as a percentage of abuse from all srouces that comes with the territory of being an AFL football player.

I have already explained my point of view in more detail in another thread on the matter:

I rarely feel the need to personally attack or insult a player, particularly in Navy Blue, and if I did, I doubt the place I would go to vent would be to a bunch of faceless armchair experts on an internet forum.

Having said that, I don't like my right to do so being questioned.

Of course the mature, intelligent, responsible and pc (=new age sensitive and just plain SOFT) way to handle the matter is to be specific about the players mistakes eg. "he turned the ball over 4 times by hand in that quarter".

But let's face it, footy is very emotional -for the players, the coaches, the supporters -everyone!

It's also widely regarded as a 'hard' sport that only the 'toughest' of 'men' can handle.

As such, although it may not be the right thing to do, opposition players would no doubt be reminding this player of these turnovers in very colourful derogatory terms on the field. Probably some of his teammates too. Not to mention the coach who will berate him via the phone when he comes off or at the next quarter break address, all in very insulting, confrontational and derrogatory terms and in front of all their teammates and usually even full view of the national television cameras.

But that's ok, that's part of football, it's an emotional game. So players, coaches, commentators and journalists are all allowed to get emotional and personally attack a player, even if on considered review it may not have been 100% warranted.

Heck, it's even part of footy to the extent that players' fear of their coaches scathing (sometimes even public) criticism is an accepted and necessary motivational tool in our sport.

And yet we are to beleive and take seriously the claim that us faceless armchair experts (who none of any of the aformentioned would accredit with any football 'expertise') posting on the internet are doing the real damage to the frail psyche of the players and we are the rightful target for the attack from the AFLPA if they really want to be serious about protecting players' psyche????

And to the mother of the young player who suffers from depression, while I do understand what she is going through better than I would wish on anyone, I would suggest she and/or her son's therapist might want to attend training and closed team meetings, or take note of on field sledging if she really wants to know what is causing the most damage to her son's condition.

And finally, as cruel as it may sound, maybe in her son's condition football isn't the smartest career choice for him, as much of a fairytale career as it may be. He would be in good company among the other 99.99995% of the population who, for one reason or another, aren't capable of playing professional AFL football. His condition may be an unfortunate tragedy, but not being able to play AFL football is not.

To me the whole matter (as 'right' as the core issue may be in ideal terms, still) reeks of blame game and deflection tactics, similar to a very valid point made by BTBG? IIRC in another thread, the 'traditional media' are threatened by and therefore attacking 'new media'. Are the players and their fragile psyche merely the latest weapon that 'traditional media' are trying on for size?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I understand Blue Yoss but then you are not prone to dishing out the type of abuse we are talking about. There is a difference between criticism and abuse. Criticism is usually constructive as it has specifics that somebody can address. Abuse is just making the perpetrator feel better.

I don't mind someone being angry and saying 'FFS, I lost count of the amount of times x turned the ball over. If he can't kick properly at this stage of his career, he never will.' The posts that say 'FFS x is a dud, ____ off and don't disgrace our club again.' Just some subtle wording adjustments required, not an intent adjustment.

I am just as concerned about it from a board quality point of view as I am a player welfare point of view. Most probably wouldn't read it.

The thread btdg started is a separate issue again.

 

[nutcase888]

Hmm, in countries with no gun control, people that feel bullied, harrassed, belittled go to schools and blow everybody away. I wonder if anybody told them to learn to deal with it.

Perhaps they should off and that would be a much better solution to the problem of bullying/harrasing than trying to protect the victim through censorship. Using such emotive language to illustrate your point does weakon your argument though IMO. While it seems that there is a gun massacre in the states every other day the truth is that only a miniscule of the population will respond in that sort of way. And that of course is the question, why do some people get so distressed over people's comments and others couldn't care less??? Perhaps we would be better off spending our energies trying to figure that question out rather going down the censorship path?

posted by Old Dark Navy's
On the surface, my main interest is our own players. I would think the hurt factor would be worse if someone who is supposed to support you, abused you.

yes that is a huge double standard and a very dissapointing response by yourself. Why is your main interest in our 'own players' rather than people in general who can be hurt by ppeople's language in so many diffrent ways if they allow it to effect them? I doubt the hurt factor would be increased at all by the fact that suporters are meant to support you. AFL players no there is no guarantee they will get love from their supporters. They know that fans are fickle and will love them if they perform and hate them if they don't. They don't go into their AFL careers with some romantic notion that all the fans are going to love them simply b/c they play for the club. They know they have to earn the support of the fans. So therefore your argument that say Ackland would feel more hurt than say umpire Chamberlain is completely false in my view. If u want to go down this path ODN u should really try and be consistent and not just pick and choose the people u want to protect.

On that note how about we ban those BAY 13 FLOG awards? I can't imagine those that get nominated (mostly who are probably kids) feel to good about themselves when they get nominated. Infact they could carry the scars for a lifetime. So I issue you that challenge ODN in the name of consistency and pressure your fellow mods to censor those awards. No doubt u will come back with same lame reason as to why the FLOG nominees won't be as hurt as Cain Ackland and Jordan Russell. But how do u really know this?

Finally to finish i have no problem with trying to encourage people to express themselves more respectfully. But to start censoring people who are venting is an extrememe response IMO.

Journalists however make a living out of being critical. Live by the sword, die by the sword ... within reason. Surely we don't need to protect Smith when he calls the Carlton supporters names?

Journalists have opinions. So you are saying b/c we don't like their opinions it is open slather on them. Are u saying its acceptable to call PAtrick Smith 'Fatpatrick' and its not acceptable to call Ackland 'Hackland'? That is very inconsistent to me and confusing. How about Caroline Wilson. Do u turn a blind eye to the insults re her appearance and posters calling her a man? Are u saying this wouldn't hurt her if she read it?

Once again ODN its about consistency.

 

[The Cranium]

As I have said earlier....

The core issue is belittling someone....from kindergarten and for the rest of your life, society in the past has accepted this form of behaviour as part of growing up. But why should it be. Wait till you have a son or daughter that comes home crying every afternoon because the are continually bullied.

This issue is wider and bigger than BF, but surely someone starts somewhere to improve how we interact with each other.

As ODN pointed out, in the US kids go a shoot other kids. Due to the acceptance by those in authority to advocate this behaviour they then turn around and blame gun control when someone finally snaps. Route Cause Analysis...send that to the HUN.

 

[nutcase888]

As I have said earlier....

The core issue is belittling someone....from kindergarten and for the rest of your life, society in the past has accepted this form of behaviour as part of growing up. But why should it be. Wait till you have a son or daughter that comes home crying every afternoon because the are continually bullied.

This issue is wider and bigger than BF, but surely someone starts somewhere to improve how we interact with each other.

As ODN pointed out, in the US kids go a shoot other kids. Due to the acceptance by those in authority to advocate this behaviour they then turn around and blame gun control when someone finally snaps. Route Cause Analysis...send that to the HUN.

yes bullying is wrong but i don't think this is what is happening here. This was the term used by the mother who was emotional. People venting is not the same as bullying. Describing what is happenign on these forums as cyber bullying is a cross exagerration in my view

 

[The Cranium]

yes bullying is wrong but i don't think this is what is happening here. This was the term used by the mother who was emotional. People venting is not the same as bullying. Describing what is happenign on these forums as cyber bullying is a cross exagerration in my view

Tell that to a HR representitive when you do similar things via email.

I just believe, the individual team boards via a general consensus set the guide lines, as our have here.... possibly those rules can be extended and strengthened. Bay 13...Pfft - If a player went in there...

I am in no way in favour of a knee jerk reaction that would say, close all fan web sites as has been suggested....1984 anyone....

I believe there is a hidden agenda here...I wonder who would benefit then.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Perhaps they should off and that would be a much better solution to the problem of bullying/harrasing than trying to protect the victim through censorship.

Telling the bullying victim to deal with it is easier than trying to educate bullies?

Using such emotive language to illustrate your point does weakon your argument though IMO.

How so? Certainly these things are not on the same scale but you did just suggest that someone should have told these shooters to get help instead of having systems in place to stop bullies. Schoolyards are brutal for some people. You would probably have to walk a mile in their shoes. I'll get emotive again for the sake of it .... do you try and stop rapists or do you just accept it as part of life and tell prospective victims not to put themselves in a position to get r*ped?

While it seems that there is a gun massacre in the states every other day the truth is that only a miniscule of the population will respond in that sort of way. And that of course is the question, why do some people get so distressed over people's comments and others couldn't care less??? Perhaps we would be better off spending our energies trying to figure that question out rather going down the censorship path?

How do I get inside the head of a footballer or family member that is distressed by angry responses from posters? Bit hard from here. I do not understand your point here. You actually think threads saying '@#$% of you @#&%ing loser, you disgust me' and the like are the right of every poster. You don't even seem to think it affects the quality of the board.

We have had this freedom of speech discussion before and you know it only exists on BF if those in control let it exist. There is no divine right. For mine, I see nothing wrong with some quality control.

yes that is a huge double standard and a very dissapointing response by yourself. Why is your main interest in our 'own players' rather than people in general who can be hurt by ppeople's language in so many diffrent ways if they allow it to effect them? I doubt the hurt factor would be increased at all by the fact that suporters are meant to support you. AFL players no there is no guarantee they will get love from their supporters. They know that fans are fickle and will love them if they perform and hate them if they don't. They don't go into their AFL careers with some romantic notion that all the fans are going to love them simply b/c they play for the club. They know they have to earn the support of the fans. So therefore your argument that say Ackland would feel more hurt than say umpire Chamberlain is completely false in my view. If u want to go down this path ODN u should really try and be consistent and not just pick and choose the people u want to protect.

Well, that truly was a wild assumption filled piece of waffle. I said 'on the surface', meaning my first concern is our own players and the thought that we could hurt our own in such a way. As a Carlton supporter, member, sponsor, and moderator, I make no apologies for that .... ON THE SURFACE. That in no way suggest I am happy for anyone else to be abused. You need to ask questions if you are unsure rather than assume you know my intention. This is what has got you into trouble in the past, a tendency to go off on your own tangent.

On that note how about we ban those BAY 13 FLOG awards? I can't imagine those that get nominated (mostly who are probably kids) feel to good about themselves when they get nominated. Infact they could carry the scars for a lifetime. So I issue you that challenge ODN in the name of consistency and pressure your fellow mods to censor those awards. No doubt u will come back with same lame reason as to why the FLOG nominees won't be as hurt as Cain Ackland and Jordan Russell. But how do u really know this?

Personally, I think the FLOG awards are stupid. Then again, I don't post on Bay 13, the awards were the innovation of the mods there and the posters that frequent there seem to do so because they enjoy the cut and thrust. Nice of you to again assume something about what I will come back with. You really are cynical and premature sometimes nutcase. The civility seems to disappear quickly from your posts every time you find a debate.

Finally to finish i have no problem with trying to encourage people to express themselves more respectfully. But to start censoring people who are venting is an extrememe response IMO.

You do realise that censoring is either deleting posts or editing some language don't you? It doesn't actually hurt the person posting it. I never said I was going to infract or ban anyone. I still encourage venting too.

Journalists have opinions. So you are saying b/c we don't like their opinions it is open slather on them. Are u saying its acceptable to call PAtrick Smith 'Fatpatrick' and its not acceptable to call Ackland 'Hackland'? That is very inconsistent to me and confusing. How about Caroline Wilson. Do u turn a blind eye to the insults re her appearance and posters calling her a man? Are u saying this wouldn't hurt her if she read it?

Once again ODN its about consistency.

Once again nutcase, it is about comprehension. Patrick Smith and other journos actively go on the attack against others. It is not just an opinion, sometimes it is a malicious agenda. How else do you explain the continued campaign against Pratt referring to the Price Fixer and we supporters as sycophants? The man is actively trying to bring ridicule upon our club and damage our brand. The players we ridicule are not actively trying to harm the club, are not calling the supporters names. Whilst some of the abuse does go overboard and I have deleted stuff about Caro before (unbeknowns to posters who can't see the action we take), they are probably a little bit more fair game than players who don't set out to discredit or harm anybody.

 

[Thrawn]

I can't imagine those that get nominated (mostly who are probably kids) feel to good about themselves when they get nominated. Infact they could carry the scars for a lifetime.

This is the funniest thing I've ever read on this site.

Well.

Maybe not, but it's up there. Are you drunk or just taking the piss here?

 

[thylacine60]

This is the funniest thing I've ever read on this site.

Well.

Maybe not, but it's up there. Are you drunk or just taking the piss here?

Definitely smell a redundancy here.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The core issue is belittling someone....from kindergarten and for the rest of your life, society in the past has accepted this form of behaviour as part of growing up. But why should it be. Wait till you have a son or daughter that comes home crying every afternoon because the are continually bullied.

This rings true. My daughter has been subjected to this sort of thing for about 3 years now. She is a strong kid and when safe in a loving home environment, you wouldn't really know about it. It isn't physical bullying, just emotional and verbal. Sometimes it gets on top of her and she reacts but the one that reacts is the one that gets in trouble as the original perpetrators band together to alter the sequence of events.

Many a time, I have comforted her as she sobbed about being sick of it all and hating herself. She had regular contact with the school counsellor but when treated well by someone at school, she became chatty and outgoing and thus they couldn't see the problem.

I reassure her constantly that these jibes are more about the kid saying it than about her. I have given her responses, empowered her, let her know she is worthwhile and she doesn't have to listen to these kids. She tries to remember but as I said, sometimes it just wears her down. It is heartbreaking as a parent. I always tell my daughter to be mindful of other kids who might be different, might not be popular, and to not fall into the trap of joining the crowd and giving that kid a hard time. Fortunately, her experiences haven't made her bitter but instead compassionate to those that she can relate to. If anyone told me that I should just tell my daughter to deal with it, I would probably have some choice words to respond with.

Everybody's situation is different and you can not make sweeping generalisations about victims needing to toughen up.