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Review Lets talk about Walker...

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HARKER said:
What happened to enigma?

The decision the CFC has to make, and as hard as it may seem, is for us to have players whose highs are high and whose lows are middle of the road.

I'll stick with Walker but you can get 2 completely different games from the same individual over a 2 week period.
Capable of being BOG one week and conversely a tragedy the next.
Only 12 weeks ago we were applauding the coming of age of Walker, through his new found role down back and now?
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Curses, I knew there was a third word but it escaped me at the time.

And agreed, if he can't bring the consistentcy he either won't see much senior action or won't be at the club come end of contract. (That is unless a decision has already been made)
 
I think we have to accept that walks is not going to be the star that we had hoped.

He is worth nothing on the market, so we may aswell keep him for depth.


He is quite tall and if he put a little more weight on we could play him as a key back on the less mobile talls as well as the mediums. Pretty handy versitile backmen, to have as a backup.

There will be serious guns playing in the Ants when we are a top 4 team
 
We keep and bloody well stop playing him in defence. We'd get so much more out of him if we played him forward/midfield where he could play to his strengths.

Players only have to fart the wrong way and they're considered no good. So I do get cynical with the thoughts of supporters on players.
 

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Jimthegreat said:
We keep and bloody well stop playing him in defence. We'd get so much more out of him if we played him forward/midfield where he could play to his strengths.

Players only have to fart the wrong way and they're considered no good. So I do get cynical with the thoughts of supporters on players.
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This.

It is going to be an amazing thing to look back on as this team develops and see how many players in that team were written off as duds at one time or another.

As the team develops so too will the parts of it.

Players will only reach their capacity as the team reaches it.

Go back and have a look at SOS in his first 2 to 3 years, you could not find a more ungainly player than the to be full back of the century.

As the backline develops so too will the role of a player like Walker, when we have the players and the talent to shut down the oppositions forwards players such as Walker will be released to fufill their potential.

In the meantime there are going to be some ups and downs.
 
OnceWeWereKings said:
This.

It is going to be an amazing thing to look back on as this team develops and see how many players in that team were written off as duds at one time or another.

As the team develops so too will the parts of it.

Players will only reach their capacity as the team reaches it.

Go back and have a look at SOS in his first 2 to 3 years, you could not find a more ungainly player than the to be full back of the century.

As the backline develops so too will the role of a player like Walker, when we have the players and the talent to shut down the oppositions forwards players such as Walker will be released to fufill their potential.

In the meantime there are going to be some ups and downs.
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Romantic rhetoric, and nothing more. Walker has been given more than enough opportunities.

And the fact you try and compare him to SOS makes me want to spit.
 
OnceWeWereKings said:
This.

It is going to be an amazing thing to look back on as this team develops and see how many players in that team were written off as duds at one time or another.

As the team develops so too will the parts of it.

Players will only reach their capacity as the team reaches it.

Go back and have a look at SOS in his first 2 to 3 years, you could not find a more ungainly player than the to be full back of the century.

As the backline develops so too will the role of a player like Walker, when we have the players and the talent to shut down the oppositions forwards players such as Walker will be released to fufill their potential.

In the meantime there are going to be some ups and downs.
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Really good post up until a point.

Sometimes in the defence of players or teams struggling, the devout bring up the extreme example, e.g. Geelong 5 years ago, or even certain players as you have done in Silvagni. For every Geelong that stuttered for a bit then excelled, there are a lot more clubs that didnt eventuate...Richmond rebuilding forever based on keeping faith with weak players. North stuck in the middle group of the table forever lol. Also, for every full back like silvagni, there were 20 other full back or defenders that looked like duds early and never developed - one Luke Livingston/J Hay comes to mind. Citing the rare example Geelong/Silver to prove your point to hold on for a player forver might mean retaining players too long. Supporter blind faith would of only ever seen us struggle if we had blind faith on Luke. Russell/L Davis would be other Silvagni like examples to a lesser degree...but they are outnumbered 10, no 50 to 1 by failures and shouldn't be the basis of a club building a side based on odds of success.

So i like the devoutness of your post but premierships for better or worse are made from tough hard decisions...Hawks got a premiership from offloading players for draft picks.

Overrating your team can cost you your next premiership...I think Ratts may have overrated some players and is learning fast...and we can see that Voss may have overrated his squad and now potentially condemned it to the scrapheap for a decade!

Carlton's example atm is the backline of Jamison, Bower, Walker, Armfield, Russell and 1 other going fwd. Hopefully a powerful CHB lol. The debate on faith is...will this backline develop from games experience and as the club ages into its premiership bracket 2011-2015, or does it lack class. People serve up Geelong time and again..despite having that one shocker year, they were good before ansd after...Scarlett/Harley were guns early in the piece...so was enright. Yes, we can develop...but none of our backs barring Bower may develop that type of class.

So faith and development up to a point..but realism must also play a part. Walker on disposal/work effort/consistency/off-field crap and the fact that he has played 100+ games (unlike the others) comes under the microscope...fairly for mine!

The majority of the back 6 does deserve more time so this is where your post has the most merit. And of course, if Bower/Armfield/Jamison become elite players, then Walker would also look better...doesnt mean you dont make a decision on him as maybe a Davies/Lucas/someone else would be a much better player in the back 6.

I think 100 games + years in the system is enough to make a decision.

Really fine line between the blind faith support and hard nosed rationalism. My view...support for 100 games or 5 years in the system...after this, except for rarities, your story is mostly told on what you can do. Some rare exceptions yes...but you cant manage a club on the 1% chance of things!
 
BlueGibbs2011 said:
Really good post up until a point.

Sometimes in the defence of players or teams struggling, the devout bring up the extreme example, e.g. Geelong 5 years ago, or even certain players as you have done in Silvagni. For every Geelong that stuttered for a bit then excelled, there are a lot more clubs that didnt eventuate...Richmond rebuilding forever based on keeping faith with weak players. North stuck in the middle group of the table forever lol. Also, for every full back like silvagni, there were 20 other full back or defenders that looked like duds early and never developed - one Luke Livingston/J Hay comes to mind. Citing the rare example Geelong/Silver to prove your point to hold on for a player forver might mean retaining players too long. Supporter blind faith would of only ever seen us struggle if we had blind faith on Luke. Russell/L Davis would be other Silvagni like examples to a lesser degree...but they are outnumbered 10, no 50 to 1 by failures and shouldn't be the basis of a club building a side based on odds of success.

So i like the devoutness of your post but premierships for better or worse are made from tough hard decisions...Hawks got a premiership from offloading players for draft picks.

Overrating your team can cost you your next premiership...I think Ratts may have overrated some players and is learning fast...and we can see that Voss may have overrated his squad and now potentially condemned it to the scrapheap for a decade!

Carlton's example atm is the backline of Jamison, Bower, Walker, Armfield, Russell and 1 other going fwd. Hopefully a powerful CHB lol. The debate on faith is...will this backline develop from games experience and as the club ages into its premiership bracket 2011-2015, or does it lack class. People serve up Geelong time and again..despite having that one shocker year, they were good before ansd after...Scarlett/Harley were guns early in the piece...so was enright. Yes, we can develop...but none of our backs barring Bower may develop that type of class.

So faith and development up to a point..but realism must also play a part. Walker on disposal/work effort/consistency/off-field crap and the fact that he has played 100+ games (unlike the others) comes under the microscope...fairly for mine!

The majority of the back 6 does deserve more time so this is where your post has the most merit. And of course, if Bower/Armfield/Jamison become elite players, then Walker would also look better...doesnt mean you dont make a decision on him as maybe a Davies/Lucas/someone else would be a much better player in the back 6.

I think 100 games + years in the system is enough to make a decision.

Really fine line between the blind faith support and hard nosed rationalism. My view...support for 100 games or 5 years in the system...after this, except for rarities, your story is mostly told on what you can do. Some rare exceptions yes...but you cant manage a club on the 1% chance of things!
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Yep, fair post, well written and points taken.

Just think that from an overall viewpoint we are too keen to call for someone to be culled without proposed better options.

What trade value does Walker hold? Perhaps late second round? Does that provide us with a better option than a player whom has obvious ability albeit with some obvious deficiences that we have put 5 years of development into?

My support for Walker stems from his inability to string games and therefore a season together, mainly due to injury. I still dont know if he will be the player most thought.

Agree that he may be surpassed by players such as Davies / Lucas, but it hasn't happened yet. Lets hope it does

In the interim, I have seen enough from him for me to continue to support him.

Was playing really good football early in the year prior to his collerbone injury. At that point thought it was going to be his breakout year.

Every Scarlett, Enright, and Harley that drink from the premiership cup will share it with your Blake, Brynes and Wojcinski's.

And wish I had your confidence with Bower, I for one at this point dont have the optimism as most on this board.

Think there are as many questions to be asked of him as anyone on our list, lets hope he gets the next 2 to 3 years to provide those answers.
 
He's not a rookie anymore ...he should be able to lay a tackle..or punch a ball away from a first gamer who is smaller than him ...how long will it take for him to perform consistently ?

One good game every 6 months is just not good enough...as for blaming injuries ..well thats just another reason to cut your losses with a player that isn't developing.

It's always a risk when you draft athletes over footballers .

I hope Walker comes out this week and has a blinder ..and then follows it up with a great finals campaign ...but on current form i just can't see it happening.
 
TheGeneral said:
Harley wasn't a gun overnight. ;)

Harley has played with two clubs because he wasn't a good player in his time with Port.

Harley also took his time to get going at Geelong.
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You're probably right on Harley.

Just shows you what an out and out elite player (Scarlett) can do to the blokes around him. With someone close to a Scarlett in our backline EVERYTHING changes me thinks. Also why i bang on about investing a top 1-16 pick on an elite back! And a tall at that despite our needs also for an elite HBFer.

The confidence from having the best big man defender in the league cannot be underestimated in the flow on confidence it provides your other defenders.

In terms of presence factor alone, our current big men provide zilch!
 

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OnceWeWereKings said:
Every Scarlett, Enright, and Harley that drink from the premiership cup will share it with your Blake, Brynes and Wojcinski's.
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Very true. The ones I prefer are the guys that work their butt off with the right club/career attitude - Walker tends to fail this test as well but maybe i'm wrong as i don't see internal club effort...just gameday/press.

We still have quite a few Blakes, Byrnes and Wojo types to cull down to the right number :o
 
BlueGibbs2011 said:
Very true. The ones I prefer are the guys that work their butt off with the right club/career attitude - Walker tends to fail this test as well but maybe i'm wrong as i don't see internal club effort...just gameday/press.

We still have quite a few Blakes, Byrnes and Wojo types to cull down to the right number :o
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Lets hope if we whip them enough on Bigfooty they will all turn into cream :D
 
BlueGibbs2011 said:
Very true. The ones I prefer are the guys that work their butt off with the right club/career attitude - Walker tends to fail this test as well but maybe i'm wrong as i don't see internal club effort...just gameday/press.

We still have quite a few Blakes, Byrnes and Wojo types to cull down to the right number :o
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Don't underestimate what Wojo brings to the table. And to think he's lost a yard too. He's a great player in his own right.
 
Interesting thread.....the posts have got a lot tamer and more thoughtful as the week has gone on. Obviously the loss has highlighted a few things and everyone isn't too happy the couple of missed tackles and then being out marked by Menzel have been blown out of proportion.

Firstly anyone see the Cats V Dogs last week??? The dogs missed atleast 20 simple tackles, this is a top four team....Varcoe's core strength and ability to keep his feet is a good as anyone's playing AFL at the moment and I think a lot more players will be easily outmarked by Menzel in the years to come, on any other list, him Taylor Hunt, Gamble, Duncan, Hogan etc would be 50 game players...

Walker is a cut above the rest at VFL level and this year until a broken collarbone and even in the weeks after he returned from it he would have been top 10 in the B&F....

He has his faults sure, but nobody on here has actually put stats on the table to see where he is at. Happy to cop it, but i'd say his efficiency would be a lot higher this year and clangers lower....(maybe)

Everyone keeps reffering back to him playing one good game, but in reality he has played 20 or 30 better games than that. It is a knee jerk reaction following a loss and proof of this, is the way the posts have change through the thread.

We are talking about a guy here who has developed in a team that has been disgraceful in all but 2 of the years he has been at the club. During that time he has had numerous injuries and been played in every position on the ground except where he played all his previous footy........on the wing or on the ball!

Surely before you trade someone who you probably aren't going to get anything for given his injury and up and down form you let the guy run wild from the start of the year and say, "We are giving you a crack as a Ruck Rover or a wing, prove to us through your hard running and attack on the footy that you deserve to be in this team". He is the fittest bloke at the Club with suspect disposal and he is being used as a lock down player, who plays in spurts and as a rebounding defender...Look at every other teams rebounding running defender and I think you'll see what I mean, he is clearly out of position.

He has had to fill holes down back this year and started well but has tapered off, as have much of the team. That was until we played two average teams and played ourselves back into form.

IMO thats why we are struggling because of our back 6 and lack of run and carry through the midfield. I think he still has a part to play as a free wheeling ball winner, running and carrying.
 
ECHUCABOY said:
Interesting thread.....the posts have got a lot tamer and more thoughtful as the week has gone on. Obviously the loss has highlighted a few things and everyone isn't too happy the couple of missed tackles and then being out marked by Menzel have been blown out of proportion.

Firstly anyone see the Cats V Dogs last week??? The dogs missed atleast 20 simple tackles, this is a top four team....Varcoe's core strength and ability to keep his feet is a good as anyone's playing AFL at the moment and I think a lot more players will be easily outmarked by Menzel in the years to come, on any other list, him Taylor Hunt, Gamble, Duncan, Hogan etc would be 50 game players...

Walker is a cut above the rest at VFL level and this year until a broken collarbone and even in the weeks after he returned from it he would have been top 10 in the B&F....

He has his faults sure, but nobody on here has actually put stats on the table to see where he is at. Happy to cop it, but i'd say his efficiency would be a lot higher this year and clangers lower....(maybe)

Everyone keeps reffering back to him playing one good game, but in reality he has played 20 or 30 better games than that. It is a knee jerk reaction following a loss and proof of this, is the way the posts have change through the thread.

We are talking about a guy here who has developed in a team that has been disgraceful in all but 2 of the years he has been at the club. During that time he has had numerous injuries and been played in every position on the ground except where he played all his previous footy........on the wing or on the ball!

Surely before you trade someone who you probably aren't going to get anything for given his injury and up and down form you let the guy run wild from the start of the year and say, "We are giving you a crack as a Ruck Rover or a wing, prove to us through your hard running and attack on the footy that you deserve to be in this team". He is the fittest bloke at the Club with suspect disposal and he is being used as a lock down player, who plays in spurts and as a rebounding defender...Look at every other teams rebounding running defender and I think you'll see what I mean, he is clearly out of position.

He has had to fill holes down back this year and started well but has tapered off, as have much of the team. That was until we played two average teams and played ourselves back into form.

IMO thats why we are struggling because of our back 6 and lack of run and carry through the midfield. I think he still has a part to play as a free wheeling ball winner, running and carrying.
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Possibly - but when it's his turn, he MUST stick tackles and hit targets. ATM he's not doing either and it costs us!!!
 

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ECHUCABOY said:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2007&rt=LA&st=I5

Found some stats, none on efficiency though, Champion Data own all that don't they?? Interesting stat here regarding inside 50's in 2007, full career makes for interesting reading as well.
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Disposal efficiency for each round
1. 77.78%
2. 91.67
3. 63.16
4. 83.33
5. 55.56
10. 75.86
11. 88.00
12. 85.00
13. 70.37
14. 70.83
15. 82.15
16. 83.33
17. 83.33
18. 92.31
21. 82.35

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/PlayerL...rofile/tabid/7854/default.aspx?playerid=14069
 
Didn't think it would be that high....have a look at the game time as well...he'd be averaging 92% without the cats game....
 
ECHUCABOY said:
Didn't think it would be that high....have a look at the game time as well...he'd be averaging 92% without the cats game....
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We have to add in number of disposals to the above stats to get a better picture of his overall effectiveness and even handball/kick ratio.

A number of our players have high disposal efficiency but it only looks good because they've had 5 disposals in a game and 4 of those could be short handballs.

Have to agree with Alice too, tackles have to stick although Walks wasn't the only one guilty of this last Friday.
 
Sin City said:
Disposal efficiency for each round
1. 77.78%
2. 91.67
3. 63.16
4. 83.33
5. 55.56
10. 75.86
11. 88.00
12. 85.00
13. 70.37
14. 70.83
15. 82.15
16. 83.33
17. 83.33
18. 92.31
21. 82.35

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/PlayerL...rofile/tabid/7854/default.aspx?playerid=14069
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For the merits of the debate, and using the same stats sheet as Sin...here are a couple of more stats that are important to consider given the above DE stat.

Walker (15 games) also has the following stats in our club:

  • 26th for tackles despite being a defender :o.
  • 26th for contested marks despite being a defender :o
  • 7th for clangers despite less games :o
  • Yes, Walker missed 5 games but so too did Waite, Armfield, Kruezer, Setanta, Robinson, and Houlahan miss games. Despite this, Walker compares vary poorly to a lot of them in the above categories
  • Given his role in the team is a defender...you wonder why teams run right through our defence when we have similar types in Scotland and Gibbs...referring to hardness/tackles here...non existent.
  • His defensive stats are so much at the lower end it is not funny...not even close to the top of the club. Compare tackles to Russell...1/3rd...that is so far behind it is not funny from one of our experienced players...half the tackles of Army despite only 2 less games!
  • Don't mention defensive contested marks...because he doesn't actually take any!!
  • Ranked 20th for Contested possessions despite being a defender...slightly smells of softish outside cheap defender...hurts our side when we have Scotland and Gibbs playing that same role...
Arguing for him...here are the positives:

  • DE % is high surprisingly...
  • His rebound 50s is 4th behind Russell, Scotland and Gibbs...
  • His 1%ers is ranked 11th...above average slightly
  • Shoulder injury...career ruined by injury to some degree

In reality, and funnily enough, the stats say he is a poorer version of Scotland. Until Lucas/Davies/draftee come on, i'd rather Scotland or White for hardness! Scotland provides 3 times as many tackles, same level of rebound 50s, and more contested possessions.
 
Alice said:
Possibly - but when it's his turn, he MUST stick tackles and hit targets. ATM he's not doing either and it costs us!!!
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True, but the guy has had his arms pulled out in each of the seasons his played. Broke his collerbone around 14-16 weeks ago. Surely would impact on your confidence levels in regards to being a bull in the tackle. Hope he gets in a massive pre-season, builds the strength and confidence in his shoulders and repays the club with a stellar 2011.
 

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