Player Watch Liam McMahon (Delisted 2022)

[jackcass]

The great Micheal Tuck played 50 reserves games for Hawthorn before going on to play 426 senior games, most finals played in history, (39) most Grand Finals,(11) .and most Premierships (7) Amazing career

Different era. Tucky still debuted as a 19 year old after being at the club for years working his way through the U19's and reserves.

 

[jackcass]

Hawthorn made all its players serve an apprenticeship in the reserves before giving them AFL games. Where other teams at least gave players a taste of senior footy in their first year or two, Hawthorn was miserly with their AFL appearances, but they were at the time a powerhouse in the AFL. Making players wait to play senior footy was a strategy that seemed very effective for them.

Was it a strategy or just a by-product of their senior team being so good it blocked the opportunity for kids until there was an injury.

 

[jackcass]

I think the best approach is to take each player on a case by case basis

If player mentally ready, good enough, there is a position to fill, then pick him. If not, leave him in the VFL til ready.

Age or experience irrelevant. How many arguing to leave him to develop in the VFL will scream for Nick to play round 1 next year.

Or enjoyed Stevo playing every game in his debut season.

 

[jackcass]

I think there are lessons to be learned from how Melbourne chose to develop Watts early in his career. I'd be letting McMahon have a couple of preseasons to develop physically and to hone his craft in the VFL before considering him. I think that's the most likely route for McMahon.

Not sure Jack Watts is a good example of anything related to potential debut's for draftees. He didn't debut until the Queens Birthday clash against us which was likely R10 or 11 so had some solid VFL form behind him.

 

[jackcass]

I think Melbourne failed to develop him appropriately early on and it seriously affected any chance he had of making it at AFL level.

Nah. Was always more a WHE type than a Jonathan Brown. Give him space and he had excellent physical attributes and skills, and could really hurt you.

 

[Rusty Beam]

I don’t think it’s fair to bring Ben King into a discussion on debut seasons of 18yo’s playing consistently good footy. If anything I think Ben fits more with him receiving games early because his numbers were consistently average with a couple of standouts (10 of his 17 goals came in only 3 of his 14 matches). It’s basically what we still get from Cox. If he were at a proper AFL club he would have played a lot less senior footy in year 1.



I don’t think we’ve seen anywhere near enough of Kelly to make that call, I would 100% be playing McMahon forward ahead of our AA CHB and if he hits the scoreboard over the next fortnight he’ll quickly move past Cameron who is a ruckman.

Pavlich was also an AA CHB too...

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Was it a strategy or just a by-product of their senior team being so good it blocked the opportunity for kids until there was an injury.

I saw their senior team against us regularly back in those days and they were very much unbeatable. My memory was that the club did have a deliberate policy but they also had no team weakness that may have created an opening. I hated watching them play us with Brereton and Dunstall in the key forward posts and the player riches elsewhere around the game.

 

[jackcass]

I saw their senior team against regularly back in those days and they were very much unbeatable. My memory was that the club did have a deliberate policy but they also had no team weakness that may have created an opening. I hated watching them play us with Brereton and Dunstall in the key forward posts and the player riches elsewhere around the game.

They got a nice leg up from the implementation of zones back then. Half the players they ended up with likely would have landed at the Saints without zones. But even before that, going back to when Tucky started, they were a solid side and relatively stable on-field. Kennedy Sr and Arthur as coaches during the 60's and early 70's set the tone.

 

[TradeDraft]

I think there are lessons to be learned from how Melbourne chose to develop Watts early in his career. I'd be letting McMahon have a couple of preseasons to develop physically and to hone his craft in the VFL before considering him. I think that's the most likely route for McMahon.

What IF he Keeps KICKING bags of Goals?

 

[sr36]

I think there are lessons to be learned from how Melbourne chose to develop Watts early in his career. I'd be letting McMahon have a couple of preseasons to develop physically and to hone his craft in the VFL before considering him. I think that's the most likely route for McMahon.

What about the lessons from how St Kilda just played Riewoldt from day dot. Is he good enough to contribute in the AFL? Is he mentally ready? They're the questions to ask.

 

[Scodog10]

Pavlich was also an AA CHB too...

Steven Silvagni kicked over 200 goals and Leppitsch once kicked 5 in a match as a CHB. What do those two and Pavlich have in common? Nothing with Darcy Moore and Collingwood in 2021.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

I think Melbourne failed to develop him appropriately early on and it seriously affected any chance he had of making it at AFL level.

Melbourne also thought he would turn into a hulking forward, who'd have the physical capacity to tear games apart.

He was never, ever that player. They positionally got it all wrong.

 

[Rusty Beam]

Steven Silvagni kicked over 200 goals and Leppitsch once kicked 5 in a match as a CHB. What do those two and Pavlich have in common? Nothing with Darcy Moore and Collingwood in 2021.

What Silvagni and Leppitsch both had in common is they had much better forward options in their team than themselves for entirety of their respective careers.

Pavlich, like Moore, not so much...

Also by moving Pav forward they provided an opportunity to a very raw McPharlin to develop as a gun key back....

 

[Quicky]

Melbourne also thought he would turn into a hulking forward, who'd have the physical capacity to tear games apart.

He was never, ever that player. They positionally got it all wrong.

Yeah they totally stuffed it.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

There seem to be two lines of thought in this thread.

1. Don't play him regardless of whether he can contribute now, for the sake of his long term physical development. "We don't want to rush him and find ourselves in a Jack Watts (Josh Fraser

Josh Fraser

Age

43

Ht

202cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

8.7

3star

HB

5.4

4star

CL

2.5

4star

HO

11.8

5star

No current season stats available

D

9.4

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

2.8

3star

HO

8.6

5star

?) situation".

2. If he is good enough to contribute now, play him now. "He could be a Pavlich or Nick Riewoldt type who can handle the step up already and will just go from strength to strength".

There is also a third option, which I don't like. It's the "he's not ready yet, but we think he will be one day, so let's play him now to fast track his development". This is the Tim English route. I don't like that for first year players, particularly key position players. However, this probably becomes a viable option in a year or two if we're still desperate for a KPF

I think I'm in the second camp. If he's good enough, he's good enough.

My question to track watchers is: Is he currently good enough to warrant a senior spot? If he is, we should play him.

 

[sr36]

There seem to be two lines of thought in this thread.

1. Don't play him regardless of whether he can contribute now, for the sake of his long term physical development. "We don't want to rush him and find ourselves in a Jack Watts (Josh Fraser?) situation".

2. If he is good enough to contribute now, play him now. "He could be a Pavlich or Nick Riewoldt type who can handle the step up already and will just go from strength to strength".

There is also a third option, which I don't like. It's the "he's not ready yet, but we think he will be one day, so let's play him now to fast track his development". This is the Tim English route. I don't like that for first year players, particularly key position players. However, this probably becomes a viable option in a year or two if we're still desperate for a KPF

I think I'm in the second camp. If he's good enough, he's good enough.

My question to track watchers is: Is he currently good enough to warrant a senior spot? If he is, we should play him.

I'm with you. To me, if we go with Cox and Mihocek as the mainstays - would he offer more than Kelly or Cameron - or WHE who last year tended to play as the cover for these guys when they're off or in the ruck?

 

[loki04]

Happy for you to disagree but craft and skills are at a minimum equally important. Just as with strength, they to take time.

They are important but when all things are equal the stronger/fitter/quicker guys will normally win out.

To be fair on Cox he wasn't going to be as fit or strong as a typical AFL player at same age.

But he will be over an 18 yo.

 

[loki04]

In his under 18 year, Jesse Hogan was kicking bags of 5 and 6 for Casey in the VFL, against men without rules to make KPF look good. The Kings were and are great prospects, but as a junior Hogan was ready made. His career is such a shame.

He also had AFL preaeason in his year prior to 18 due to prelisting.
Again whilst they were excellent talents I dont recall either having a 8 goal or 11 goal game in u18 juniors but could be wrong.

 

[sr36]

He also had AFL preaeason in his year prior to 18 due to prelisting.
Again whilst they were excellent talents I dont recall either having a 8 goal or 11 goal game in u18 juniors but could be wrong.

Hogan didn't play his final year of Under 18s. He played for Casey. Below is his stats for them that year. As well as the goals, check out his contested marks and overall mark stats. Being VFL, I think it trumps Ben or Max King having a day out in an U18 match.

Jesse Hogan - Player Statistics

Player Statistics for Jesse Hogan while playing in the VFL Powered by GameDay

websites.sportstg.com

 

[Scodog10]

What Silvagni and Leppitsch both had in common is they had much better forward options in their team than themselves for entirety of their respective careers.

Pavlich, like Moore, not so much...

Also by moving Pav forward they provided an opportunity to a very raw McPharlin to develop as a gun key back....

What they both had in common was that they were exceptional KPD’s who were lynchpins in very successful teams.

Take Moore away from our defensive third and our tall stocks are worse off at that end of the ground than up front. Roughead is our only other option and he’s barely going. At the other end Mihocek is top 3 by role in the league behind Darling, IMO, and Cox is on par with Roughead. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Although I guess in retrospect he does share a stronger forward mix in common with Leppa and SOS. Albeit not the quality of Carlton of the 90’s and Brisbane of the 00’s.

For any prospective onlookers buying into Rusty’s fantasy let’s say we have Richmond this week with both Lynch and Reiwoldt in the lineup. Moore is forward in place of Cox. Who are you playing on Reiwoldt? Assuming Roughead goes to Lynch (a matchup he’s really struggled with since joining the club) is it Howe? If so how much does that compromise his ability to intercept? We now have our top two intercept defenders either gone or blunted because they need to be more accountable. All for the sake of what an extra goal a game? The thought of having him up forward is tantalising of course until you actually consider the consequences. Those are the questions a coaching group that will be held accountable for stupid changes have to ask. They also know the answer is of course leave him back unless it’s take the goalkeeper off time.

 

[Billys Back]

I’m sure if he performs in the VFL he will get a run in the seniors. Right now, what makes anyone think he could play seniors??? Kicking a few goals in a VFL practise game???

 

[jonmacTrag]

I’m sure if he performs in the VFL he will get a run in the seniors. Right now, what makes anyone think he could play seniors??? Kicking a few goals in a VFL practise game???

Agree Billy - one swallow does not a summer make.
Promising performance in the VFL but it's just a high water mark at this stage - like most young players his talent will ebb and flow through his development.

 

[Rusty Beam]

What they both had in common was that they were exceptional KPD’s who were lynchpins in very successful teams.

Take Moore away from our defensive third and our tall stocks are worse off at that end of the ground than up front. Roughead is our only other option and he’s barely going. At the other end Mihocek is top 3 by role in the league behind Darling, IMO, and Cox is on par with Roughead. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Although I guess in retrospect he does share a stronger forward mix in common with Leppa and SOS. Albeit not the quality of Carlton of the 90’s and Brisbane of the 00’s.

For any prospective onlookers buying into Rusty’s fantasy let’s say we have Richmond this week with both Lynch and Reiwoldt in the lineup. Moore is forward in place of Cox. Who are you playing on Reiwoldt? Assuming Roughead goes to Lynch (a matchup he’s really struggled with since joining the club) is it Howe? If so how much does that compromise his ability to intercept? We now have our top two intercept defenders either gone or blunted because they need to be more accountable. All for the sake of what an extra goal a game? The thought of having him up forward is tantalising of course until you actually consider the consequences. Those are the questions a coaching group that will be held accountable for stupid changes have to ask. They also know the answer is of course leave him back unless it’s take the goalkeeper off time.

If both hadn’t have been injured this preseason I’d be playing Keane or Kelly.

Young inexperienced key defenders often get roundly beaten by experienced gun key forwards. IMO less so than young inexperienced key forwards being totally ineffectual though.

Its also fairly universally seen as the easier end to play.

I have no unrealistic expectations in regards to this season. So I’d rather use it as a development year and get games into both, particularly before Roughead does actually fall off the cliff altogether.

 

[Harry O]

He has done very well in intra clubs as well, and apparently wins a lot of the ball through footy smarts and on the lead not relying on body size or strength

 

[loki04]

Hogan didn't play his final year of Under 18s. He played for Casey. Below is his stats for them that year. As well as the goals, check out his contested marks and overall mark stats. Being VFL, I think it trumps Ben or Max King having a day out in an U18 match.

Jesse Hogan - Player Statistics

Player Statistics for Jesse Hogan while playing in the VFL Powered by GameDay

websites.sportstg.com

It does hold more sway (vfl form) but I'm of the belief if you dont show the ability to break through 4-5 goal mark as a junior very, very rarely will you start to do it as an adult.