Lions Guernsey survey results: An open letter to Malcolm Holmes

[lionbear]

You look at Geelong, they have two different logo's, one they use on Merchandise, one they use on their jumpers, I would have absolutely no issue with the club going down this line, in fact I would think its a great move, because like the last few posts, I like the logo we have, its just no good on a football jumper.

 

[____]

You look at Geelong, they have two different logo's, one they use on Merchandise, one they use on their jumpers, I would have absolutely no issue with the club going down this line, in fact I would think its a great move, because like the last few posts, I like the logo we have, its just no good on a football jumper.

Liverpool and Rangers also do the exact same.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

You look at Geelong, they have two different logo's, one they use on Merchandise, one they use on their jumpers, I would have absolutely no issue with the club going down this line, in fact I would think its a great move, because like the last few posts, I like the logo we have, its just no good on a football jumper.

I believe I argued that very possibility to Michael Bowers. Too long ago now to remember what the reply was, but I'm certain it was either arrogance or silence.

 

[spotthedog1]

Unfortunately I don't think you interpreted correctly what I wrote.
I was talking about Collingwood's JUMPER – not their logo.
Like Pepsi.. they were never blessed with a timeless logo (Pepsi's script was looking alright.. though it was an obvious rip-off.. or actually perhaps Coke ripped theirs off.. but either way.. Pepsi jumped ship).

We were fortunate though in my opinion (you obviously disagree on that point which is fine). Calton was also fortunate. I am sure Carlton has refined their monogram over time with new technology etc. Still it is a strong recognisable brand – and one which invokes pride by their supporters, and despise by their opponents.

Righto - i did misunderstand. Fair enough point. I still don't think our old guernsey was really as timeless the Wobbles or, for example, Essendon. Probably because theirs was simpler. Black and white stripes, or black with single red stripe, is much simpler, and (to a degree) more elegant than trying to work in 3 competing colours.

Even as Fitzroy though, the guernsey changed several times. Pre-merger, Fitzroy even changed their colours a couple of times. First maroon and yellow, then maroon and blue, and then removing the maroon completely and going red, blue, yellow back in the 70s. Even FFC didn't think their guernsey timeless.

I mentioned that McDonalds and Nike have 'repositioned' themselves many times before but one thing remains. Other examples in that link of instantly recognisable icons include SHELL, APPLE, PLAYBOY and VOLKSWAGON. All of these icons are strong enough to stand alone (without any logotype). This is where the Fitzroy Lion can be so powerful.

With regards to Coca-Cola.. interestingly, their logo is almost the same as it was on their first labels in the 1900's. Amazing. So strong. Naturally it was refined once better technologies came along (and I think the same could be done with our Lion also. For mine though, the Costa Sports version is still a little too refined. Still a damn sight better than what currently appears on the front of our jumper though. I have examined the Fitzroy Lion up close, and you can still tell that it was originally rendered by hand. The vector re-illustration was never slick. I am not opposed to minor tweaks).

There appears to be some division amongst Lions supporters over this issue doesn't there. The fact is.. the Fitzroy Lion graced our jumpers since 1957. Then, under the irresponsible iron fist of Bowers and co. It was taken from us, without giving us a say, When questioned about an impending change, it was denied. This was underhanded, and the wrong thing to do.

RE: the underhandedness - i agree... that's not right, and shouldn't happen. Management should be open, honest, and accountable.

RE: the lion - i wasn't aware it had only been in use for 50 years. I thought ex-Roys supporters claim was that it was as old as their club. Would be interested to have seen the opposition it received when it was first brought in.

RE: the brands - funnily enough, a lot of those you list as 'timeless' are changed. I've seen the old apple logo with Newton under the tree on early marketing. Certainly makes me smile, but i don't think it should be here now.

Which is why the results of the survey are so powerful IMO. The incumbent split the group in terms of love it or hate it. The previous and potential new jumper did not.

While it would be nice if those that hate the current design "got over it" or "learned to like it", nobody can force them to, and the current board can't sit there and claim the club is "united, relentless & respectful" in the meantime.

It means too much to too many to at best, sweep it under the carpet, or at worst, say get stuffed.

The point i was making was - when bringing in a new logo, they do testing, etc, but they don't usually poll for it, because unless the old logo is really hated, it will win. That was my point. That they couldn't really ask members what to do, because if they did, nothing would ever change, and they'd be behind the times even more. I know the new logo splits opinion, and that's because the new logo isn't particularly good, not because we should be sticking with the outdated logo. Already admitted i'm not big on the new logo, but really, i don't care that much...

And for those who whinged about my use of BHP - i know it's not identical, but that doesn't change the fact that BBFFC is a business. It seeks profit (both on-field and off-field), and a good club/society of any kind will use good business models to achieve profit (again, on-field profits (ie. premierships) and off-field profits). The entire point of logos... heck, the entire point of having team nicknames like 'the lions' is as a marketing tool... And seriously, anyone who thinks their culture and identity is defined by being a spectator of a sporting team needs to get a life.

- - - - -

I always find these debates quite trifling though - people say 'the _______ we won premierships with'... Far as I was aware, our loyalty and culture was in the TEAM or the CLUB, not in the logo, the song, the flag, the guernsey, or any other such thing. We could start next season with a plain white strip, no logo, no flag, no team nickname and no song - and we should still support them... that is the point of team culture. Admittedly, such a scheme would be hard to market with, but I hope you get my point... Loyalty to the club, not the logo, or any other trivial meaningless marketing tool.

Just my opinion.

 

[spotthedog1]

Oh man! I went to look into why the Fitzroy Lion was brought in... and I laughed and I laughed and I laughed...

The club rebranded in the 50s, changing from the Fitzroy Gorillas to the Fitzroy Lions.

That's it - i don't want the old logo, I don't want the current logo... I WANT A GORILLA!

After all - it's our history...

 

[Roylion]

I've heard that debated. I don't know whether it's true (I've had people tell me both ways, but i haven't read the merger agreement, so don't know). If it's not - argument invalid. If it is - I think it was a silly thing for anyone to put in there, idiotic for Bears mgmt to agree to, /

To agree to?

The Bears management wrote the agreement. Fitzroy had no say in it at all and were forced to adhere to the agreement after the administrator of Fitzroy signed while in control of the club.

If the merger agreement (Clause 7.2c re: using the Fitzroy Lions in perpetuity) doesn't apply anymore, could the Brisbane Bears' (now Brisbane Lions') management please return all of Fitzroy's tangible and intangible assets (including all Fitzroy memorabilia (picked up via Clause 7.1b )?

to:

Fitzroy Football Club
c/o Brunswick St Oval
Fitzroy, Victoria, 3065

and not realistic that Fitzroy mgmt should expect it would be followed long term (of course the logo would have to be updated eventually)... /

The logo could have been updated anyway. Fitzroy didn't have a problem with the Brisbane Lions logo being re-designed. The logo was designed in 1997 and re-designed in 2001. Both the 1997 and 2001 logos included the 'Fitzroy lion' in some way as per the agreement. If the Lions wanted to change the terms of the agreement, then why wasn't their so-called merger partner, the Fitzroy Football Club consulted?

 

[The Brisbane Beast]

Does anyone on this board actually want to admit to liking the Pies logo?

Me personally? No. But it's Collingwood, don't like much about them at all.

But, the fact is, Collingwood fans love it, and have loved it since day zero, and their CEO, Club, board etc, listen to, and respect Collingwood members and supporters, and their great history of winning.

I'm fairly certain a Collingwood supporter would rather cut off one of ther own fingers, than have their identity vastly changed.

And I feel the same way about the Brisbane Lions.

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

When Fitzroy was still its own entity in the VFL, many moons ago, they were free to make their own decisions. When they were merged with the Bears, both merger partners lost their individual branding at senior level. The guernsey/logo chosen were done so out of respect for both parties merged. Clause 7.2 c) of the merger agreement was written to enshrine that new identity, one everyone that got on board could see some of their history in, and be proud to support. Trying to suggest that was a stupid idea is ignoring the tribal nature of footy supporters. I also can't help but think it's deliberately inflammatory.

 

[Roylion]

Oh man! I went to look into why the Fitzroy Lion was brought in... and I laughed and I laughed and I laughed...

So did many from the time it was adopted in 1939. That's why most Fitzroy supporters continued to call them 'the Maroons' or "Roys" right through to 1957, when the Lion was adopted. The Lions emblem was extremely popular with the Fitzroy faithful.

The club rebranded in the 50s, changing from the Fitzroy Gorillas to the Fitzroy Lions.

As did many clubs.

Hawthorn used to be known as the Mayblooms
Melbourne used to be known as the Fuschias.
Geelong were known as the Pivotonians.

That's it - i don't want the old logo, I don't want the current logo... I WANT A GORILLA!

After all - it's our history...

But not in the merger agreement. There's no reference to 'Gorilla logo' in that.

 

[spotthedog1]

To agree to?
If the merger agreement (Clause 7.2c re: using the Fitzroy Lions in perpetuity) doesn't apply anymore, could the Brisbane Bears' (now Brisbane Lions') management please return all of Fitzroy's tangible and intangible assets (including all Fitzroy memorabilia (picked up via Clause 7.1b )?

The logo could have been updated anyway. Fitzroy didn't have a problem with the Brisbane Lions logo being re-designed. The logo was designed in 1997 and re-designed in 2001. Both the 1997 and 2001 logos included the 'Fitzroy lion' in some way as per the agreement. If the Lions wanted to change the terms of the agreement, then why wasn't their so-called merger partner, the Fitzroy Football Club consulted?

OK - i've now read through the relevant parts of the agreement, and on a simple reading, i don't get the problem. In context of the section, and read as intended, the clause indicates that, from that time onwards, and unable to be changed, the club will be the Lions not the Bears.

Furthermore, if one takes the view that it refers to the specific logo, then the current logo is acceptable, as it's the same lion, just turned around. You've already stated that minor modifications to the logo have been ratified previously.

Me personally? No. But it's Collingwood, don't like much about them at all.

But, the fact is, Collingwood fans love it, and have loved it since day zero, and their CEO, Club, board etc, listen to, and respect Collingwood members and supporters, and their great history of winning.

I'm fairly certain a Collingwood supporter would rather cut off one of ther own fingers, than have their identity vastly changed.

And I feel the same way about the Brisbane Lions.

I sorted out this miscommunication with the person who originally posted. Regardless, if you feel, as you suggest, that changes to a logo affect your identity as a person, I would suggest that perhaps your priorities aren't quite in order...

Some simple options:

1. Keep the original Lions emblem that has 11 VFL/AFL Premierships forever linked to it.
2. Neglect members and supporters opinions/feelings and employ an oversized cartoon Lions logo with nothing linked to it.
3. Be respectful. Allow Brisbane Lions members, supporters, players, management etc to have their say on how they want their club to be represented aesthetically, and let democracy decide.

From my searching:
7 VFL/AFL premierships as the Fitzroy Maroons
1 VFL/AFL premiership as the Fitzroy Gorillas
Then changed their name to Fitzroy Lions
0 premierships as the Fitzroy Lions
Then removed the colour maroon from their logo/guernsey/official team colours (i know - outrage! How could they have removed a colour that has 7 VFL/AFL premierships forever linked to it!)
Then merged with the Bears.
3 AFL premierships as the Brisbane Lions

Just checking - which original emblem has 11 premierships forever linked to it?

If you don't like the current logo, fair enough, it's not great... but i can't see any reason that the sideways-facing lion should be our eternal logo...

Surely this makes perfectly clear - if staunch supporters of the sideways-facing lion don't even know that 8 of our clubs premierships weren't done under the name 'Lions' (let alone with the logo), and still embrace that heritage as part of our proud history, then surely future supporters won't care that for a period of time the lion was sideways-facing, then forward-facing, then changed to something completely different... and they will still be able to take pride in the history of 11 premierships (and counting) associated with our great club...

 

[matwt73]

Surely this makes perfectly clear - if staunch supporters of the sideways-facing lion don't even know that 8 of our clubs premierships weren't done under the name 'Lions' ...

I would suggest one should be loathe to assume what others may or may not have been aware of spotthedog1. As mentioned above, the Gorillas nickname as,well as the Maroons, was unlikely to have been a surprise to many on here and your suggestion that people's objections arise from ignorance is likely to offend.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

I feel it needs to be reiterated that the basis of our argument is not against how the guernsey looks. Instead, it's about the process from which this guernsey was chosen. That's what needs fixing up. Anything else is subjective (although the numbers are pretty clear in telling which opinion most hold).

 

[GingerGreatness]

What great debate we have here.

It's almost like the results of the survey showed that the jumper was divisive amongst members and supporters.

...

......

Oh.

 

[spotthedog1]

I would suggest one should be loathe to assume what others may or may not have been aware of spotthedog1. As mentioned above, the Gorillas nickname as,well as the Maroons, was unlikely to have been a surprise to many on here and your suggestion that people's objections arise from ignorance is likely to offend.

Apologies - you are correct. I should have said "if some staunch supporters"... I am sure that quite a few were aware of, and embrace this as our history. And I assure you, I don't believe, nor did I intend to suggest, that all objections are raised from ignorance... i'm sure some are, however i'm sure some arguments on the other side are also.

I apologise to anyone who may have taken offence to the section in question.

I feel it needs to be reiterated that the basis of our argument is not against how the guernsey looks. Instead, it's about the process from which this guernsey was chosen. That's what needs fixing up. Anything else is subjective (although the numbers are pretty clear in telling which opinion most hold).

I relatively support this. I can understand that the club can't consult members on everything, and indeed, to my knowledge, most clubs who change their strip regularly do so without consulting members (i may be wrong, but to my knowledge), however it does appear from what i've been told that the club was quite deceptive around this, which is clearly a violation of the relationship between club and supporters.

My only issue is with the idea that we can't change the sideways-facing lion... ever...

 

[Brisroy Fitzbane]

edited.

 

[spotthedog1]

I tend to agree. For someone who has stated that they don't even care either way, and that it is a silly thing to care about etc. this poster certainly seems to take a strong stance.

Really? I'm trolling? For the record, I don't care a lot about what the current strip is. I do care about the possibility of the club caving to requests from small numbers who insist that we as a club should never be able to progress our marketing...

To clarify, i have no issue with the survey, or it's aims (the item i don't care about too much either way) - and can understand why many don't like the current strip (a concession i've made all the way through), my issue is only with a select argument that only a few people have been making.

I also love the irony of being called 'inflammatory' by the person with a religiously offensive avatar.

On the point of "...it's the same lion, just turned around." – This is bollocks. It is not the same lion turned around. It is a hybrid FrankenLion. A vandalised icon. Not heraldry. A cartoon.

And you suggest I'm the one with inflammatory remarks...

 

[BuntonRules]

I thought this thread was for Malcolm Holmes et al to read to gauge the reasoning behind our poll, not a rehash of the old arguments

 

[Roylion]

OK - i've now read through the relevant parts of the agreement, and on a simple reading, i don't get the problem. In context of the section, and read as intended, the clause indicates that, from that time onwards, and unable to be changed, the club will be the Lions not the Bears.

I'll repeat the Clause for your benefit.

c) The logo of the merged club will be the Fitzroy lion logo in perpetuity;

Also from the agreement: "Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears which will conduct the combined Club Operations of Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears following the Merger;

The agreement does not say

c) The logo of the merged club will be a lion logo in perpetuity;

This is a seperate clause to 7.2a. which says..

a) The Merged Club will trade as Brisbane Lions Australian Football Club and subject to the passing of the special resolution referred to in clause 6, the Merged Club will be re-named Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Limited:

You can clearly see what defines the "Fitzroy lion logo" from my avatar.

Furthermore, if one takes the view that it refers to the specific logo,

It does. The exact logo as appears in my avatar. That, and only that, is "Fitzroy lion logo." Used for close to 40 years by Fitzroy.

then the current logo is acceptable, as it's the same lion, just turned around.

It's not the same logo.

You've already stated that minor modifications to the logo have been ratified previously.

The logo of the Brisbane Lions displayed the "Fitzroy lion logo" in its entirety.

1997-2000

and:

2001-2009

Note the Fitzroy lion appears in both logos.

Surely this makes perfectly clear - if staunch supporters of the sideways-facing lion don't even know that 8 of our clubs premierships weren't done under the name 'Lions' (let alone with the logo), and still embrace that heritage as part of our proud history, then surely future supporters won't care that for a period of time the lion was sideways-facing, then forward-facing, then changed to something completely different... and they will still be able to take pride in the history of 11 premierships (and counting) associated with our great club...

The Brisbane Lions do not have 11 premierships. They have three premierships. 2001-2002-2003.

 

[Sanchez365]

There appears to be some division amongst Lions supporters over this issue doesn't there. The fact is.. the Fitzroy Lion graced our jumpers since 1957. Then, under the irresponsible iron fist of Bowers and co. It was taken from us, without giving us a say, When questioned about an impending change, it was denied. This was underhanded, and the wrong thing to do.

Sorry to only pick out a small part of your post but when you said that made me think about something. I had a look at Footy Jumpers.com and according to that site Fitzroy never had the lion on the jersey as we had it. With that in mind it can be hard to argue that we HAVE to have the Fitzroy Lion on our guernsey (which is what I thought people were putting forth) and not some unattractive cartoon lion instead. The logo talk is obviously a different matter.

Personally I am not a strong supporter of the new lions jumper as I don't feel like it represents the history of either Fitzroy, Bears or the Brisbane Lions and it also looks like quite an eye sore. I hope that with the trend of clubs moving back to more simple, traditional strips (eg Port and Freo's recent changes) then I hope we rectify our mistake soon.

I would also like to commend Haso on his analysis, and on everyone else that put together the survey and got some results. Talking around in circles gets us no where, but you guys have done the work to potentially create change. Bloody well done!

 

[Brisroy Fitzbane]

Thanks Sanchez. Yes not as we had it, but I thought it was on the chest the whole time. I stand corrected.
Like I said.. I grew up supporting the Brisbane Broncos, not Fitzroy.
The point is... That is the logo of the merged clubs. That is the logo on the front of our premiership jumpers.
We were not consulted. There is division amongst supporters. The club needs to speak up.

 

[Sanchez365]

Thanks Sanchez. Yes not as we had it, but I thought it was on the chest the whole time. I stand corrected.
Like I said.. I grew up supporting the Brisbane Broncos, not Fitzroy.
The point is... That is the logo of the merged clubs. That is the logo on the front of our premiership jumpers.
We were not consulted. There is division amongst supporters. The club needs to speak up.

No I totally know what you mean. I was a Fitzroy supporter before the merger (although I was still a teenager when it happened) and I often look back in my mind and mistakenly see the lion on the front of the red and blue. This is still an issue that needs to be addressed, and the work done by the guys is a great step forward letting the club know how the members are feeling at the moment. I'm eagerly awaiting a response from the club.

 

[Roylion]

From my searching:
7 VFL/AFL premierships as the Fitzroy Maroons

No. Seven VFL/AFL premierships as the Fitzroy Football Club. 'Maroons' was never part of the official name of the Fitzroy Football Club. The maroons was merely a supporter nickname like Mayblooms, Shinboners or whatever.

1 VFL/AFL premiership as the Fitzroy Gorillas

No. One VFL/AFL premiership as the Fitzroy Football Club. 'Gorillas' was never part of the official name of the Fitzroy Football Club.

Then changed their name to Fitzroy Lions
0 premierships as the Fitzroy Lions

No they didn't change their name to the "Fitzroy Lions." They remained as the Fitzroy Football Club. The Club adopted a new mascot.

Then removed the colour maroon from their logo/guernsey/official team colours (i know - outrage! How could they have removed a colour that has 7 VFL/AFL premierships forever linked to it!)

They didn't remove maroon at all. They lightened the existing maroon for colour television. The official Fitzroy song stlll referred to 'maroon and blue'.

Then merged with the Bears.

That's a matter of debate.

3 AFL premierships as the Brisbane Lions.

Which is a different club to the Fitzroy Football Club.

Just checking - which original emblem has 11 premierships forever linked to it?

Well let's see...so far we have a colour, a Gorilla and the Fitzroy Lion.

If you don't like the current logo, fair enough, it's not great... but i can't see any reason that the sideways-facing lion should be our eternal logo...

Well here's one. The Deed of Arrangement written by the Brisbane Bears which stipulates that the logo of the merged club (i.e. the Brisbane Bears) would be the Fitzroy lion in perpetuity.

Surely this makes perfectly clear - if staunch supporters of the sideways-facing lion don't even know that 8 of our clubs premierships weren't done under the name 'Lions' (let alone with the logo), and still embrace that heritage as part of our proud history, then surely future supporters won't care that for a period of time the lion was sideways-facing, then forward-facing, then changed to something completely different... and they will still be able to take pride in the history of 11 premierships (and counting) associated with our great club...

Three premierships.

The 1898, 1899, 1904, 1905, 1913, 1916, 1922 and 1944 premierships were won by the Fitzroy Football Club, who for the last 40 years of their VFL-AFL existence (1957 to 1996) and at the time of the "merger" were nicknamed the Lions. This nickname was symbolised by the "Fitzroy Lion logo" and adopted by the Brisbane Bears as their own moniker from 1997-2009, in order to try and attract a sizeable Melbourne support base from the existing Fitzroy supporter base. Moreover the Bears had it written into the agreement that they wrote that the Fitzroy lion logo would be used as the logo of the club in perpetuity.

 

[Chasing the Dream]

I believe I argued that very possibility to Michael Bowers. Too long ago now to remember what the reply was, but I'm certain it was either arrogance or silence.

I was going to vote arrogance, but then I thought about it.

I now vote silence. He just did not understand what you were talking about. And that is no indictment on your argument, just the fact that Mr Bowers had no idea.

"If I am vewy, vewy quite, maybe he will go away"

 

[Hollow Knight]

The analysis of the survey results is excellent and I can't really add more than that. It speaks for itself. It is clear that the club needs to consult members about the design of our playing strip at the earliest possible opportunity.

Phenomenal effort by those involved. The club is lucky to have supporters who care deeply enough to put in so much hard work. It is a resource that the previous administration was simply too arrogant to tap into. A real shame.

 

[Vipertooth]

The following is an email I sent to the club around June 2011, I still standby it:

P.S I never got a reply


Dear Mr Johnson

As a long time supporter of the Brisbane Lions Football Club (since 1998), I have had concerns over the current playing jumper of the past two seasons. The "paddle pop" jumper, as it’s been dubbed, is in my opinion a legacy of bad decisions made by the previous admin of the club.

Thus far I have felt rather refreshed by the attempts of the new admin (including yourself) to get this club back on track. From what I have witnessed, all members and supporters alike are now being listened to rather than ignored. In addition the genuine attempts to try to reengage with the ex Fitzroy supporters in Melbourne has been a fantastic touch. The changes made within the football department, show a willingness to move in the right direction and not let the club stagnate. But one thing is still missing, from what I have read on forums and heard from members and supporters of our mighty club, the return of the Fitzroy Lion to the playing jumper is a must!

As I understand it, the AFL requirement of wearing the same jumper for two years running will be over at the end of this year (2011). Now is the perfect opportunity for me (a potential 2012 paying member) to stand up and let you, as chairman, know my thoughts. The 2009 or earlier jumpers with the Fitzroy Lion emblem placed in the middle represents everything good about this club, especially the powerhouse we were during the 2000-2004 reign. It stands as a symbol of our clubs success, it also symbolises club loyalty with players taking pay cuts during their prime to keep this proud team together. Lastly it provides unity for all Lion’s fans, supporters and members, something we can rally behind and be proud of.

The Paddle Pop Lion has been associated with bad press and the on field failures of the past two seasons. On a personal note, I feel no strong link nor emotion toward the Paddle pop Lion, it feels like something is missing. I have refused to purchase any merchandise with the Paddle pop branding, which has been sad, as in previous years (2009 - 2000) I have been very fond of purchasing the newest Lions merchandise (I have a fairly big collection to date!).

It is unfortunate that I have never been a paid Brisbane Lions Football Club member, its been mainly due to financial (University student) and locational restraints (living in Tasmania). But in 2012 I am financially able, but at this present time still hesitant. I would really like to see some form of debate regarding the return of the old jumper, and potentially a vote put to all members and even supporters, remembering that supporters are potential future members.

Thank you for your time in reading this email and I cannot wait to hear your response!