Analysis List Management, Recruiting and Development. Where did the problem really reside?

[Glitch]

Who is to blame for the failures of our current list.

I had a look at Geelong, Hawthorn and the Dogs as examples of Melbourne teams who have done well....to mirror against our failures.

The Geelong Sides of the 07+ era were built upon a plethora of picks in 99,fails in 00 then very good 01 and 02.

In 99 they got Joel Corey (good call) before they then took the following players (picks sub 25)
David Spriggs then Ezra Bray then Daniel Foster They then took GUNS Paul Chapman Cameron Ling and Corey Enright.
This was on the back of trades to get picks.

In 00 the SAME recruiters traded away many top picks for Kent Kingsley, Justin Murpy and Mitch White....
They got Josh Hunt at 44 Daniel Lowther and Simpson (ok)
This was a big fail of a draft .... same recruiters.

In 01
Grgic (trade) Bartel, Then Charlie Gardner before Stevie J Ablett (FS) Henry Playfair Matt McCarthy, David Johnson

Hits and misses here...

And this is meant to be the premier recruiting team!

What is clear - they were VERY ACTIVE. They knew that it is a odds game - the more picks you have the more you will get right. They chose the right types of players.

Go and look at the Western Bulldogs side and see how they were assembled. It is very interesting..... they had very few drafts you would think they really got right. BUt they recruited to a well defined structure it seems. They chose enough of the right types.

Hawthorn - similar to Geelong were assembled with a large mixture of successes and failures. But they got the right mix of players and were very active. For example, they traded Croad out for a top pick. They were lucky to get him back for peanuts. They were active - that activity created their luck. Their 05 draft was woeful. Had they got it right....ouch. They could have added Pendelbury over XEllis and Ryder over Beau Dowler.
They then went on to take Birchall, Bailey, Muston T.Tuck
06 they took Thorp before Selwood! Renouf before Shane Edwards and let go FS Josh Kennedy!
But they obviously had a lot of successful years...01 = a mix of hits and misses, 04 = same


But they were active! They were active for many years.


My read on our problem? It is a long list....

We have just NOT taken enough draft picks, especially 2nd rounder's. In part this is because we haven't been prepared to trade OUT any decent players. They excuse may be that we didn't have the players other clubs were interested in?? This is PARTLY FJ.

Held onto players like McBean, Elton etc to long. McBean had a small currency a year ago. We missed that call. This is NOT FJ.

We gave up 2nd rounder's to easily when looking at the Cats/Hawks - their premiership list was built on 2nd rounders primarily. Eg. traded OUT 2 seconds for a 1st to get a player who was playing 2nds and on really rated at Carlton. This is a WHOPPER. This is NOT FJ.

We made to many mistakes with our First Rounders (eg. Conca = just one of those things. Lennon - not the right body type. C.Ellis - jury out but body type is skinny ).
This IS FJ.

We have topped up with seasoned C graders who are deemed not good enough by other clubs. This is NOT FJ.

We thought we were better than we were and tried to add small forwards and outside run and carry to top off our list - for about 5 years in a row! This meant we have not had anywhere near enough draft picks who are Key Position Forwards or Backs or Pure Mids. This is NOT FJ. Body types are requested by the club - it is up to the recruiters to fill that request.

Development - We have far to many CLOSE to good players. Vickery, Griffiths etc. Call them list cloggers if you will. Griffiths however as much as I like him had very low numbers in the U18's. It is proven time and time again that this VERY RARELY changes once they get to the AFL. So what that he is a good athlete. We will need him this year and he is not a complete dud - but I doubt the premier clubs are beating down our doors to get him either. This is more a draft issue than development. This IS FJ.


So to me the problem is a few fold deep. Our recruiting strategy has been incorrect. Our actual drafting not brilliant - but not a total flop. Our list management - the biggest problem.

If you agree - whom are the people who make these decisions apart from Blair, FJ and Dimma?

 

[Dr Tigris]

Who is to blame for the failures of our current list.

I had a look at Geelong, Hawthorn and the Dogs as examples of Melbourne teams who have done well....to mirror against our failures.

The Geelong Sides of the 07+ era were built upon a plethora of picks in 99,fails in 00 then very good 01 and 02.

In 99 they got Joel Corey (good call) before they then took the following players (picks sub 25)
David Spriggs then Ezra Bray then Daniel Foster They then took GUNS Paul Chapman Cameron Ling and Corey Enright.
This was on the back of trades to get picks.

In 00 the SAME recruiters traded away many top picks for Kent Kingsley, Justin Murpy and Mitch White....
They got Josh Hunt at 44 Daniel Lowther and Simpson (ok)
This was a big fail of a draft .... same recruiters.

In 01
Grgic (trade) Bartel, Then Charlie Gardner before Stevie J Ablett (FS) Henry Playfair Matt McCarthy, David Johnson

Hits and misses here...

And this is meant to be the premier recruiting team!

What is clear - they were VERY ACTIVE. They knew that it is a odds game - the more picks you have the more you will get right. They chose the right types of players.

Go and look at the Western Bulldogs side and see how they were assembled. It is very interesting..... they had very few drafts you would think they really got right. BUt they recruited to a well defined structure it seems. They chose enough of the right types.

Hawthorn - similar to Geelong were assembled with a large mixture of successes and failures. But they got the right mix of players and were very active. For example, they traded Croad out for a top pick. They were lucky to get him back for peanuts. They were active - that activity created their luck. Their 05 draft was woeful. Had they got it right....ouch. They could have added Pendelbury over XEllis and Ryder over Beau Dowler.
They then went on to take Birchall, Bailey, Muston T.Tuck
06 they took Thorp before Selwood! Renouf before Shane Edwards and let go FS Josh Kennedy!
But they obviously had a lot of successful years...01 = a mix of hits and misses, 04 = same


But they were active! They were active for many years.


My read on our problem? It is a long list....

We have just NOT taken enough draft picks, especially 2nd rounder's. In part this is because we haven't been prepared to trade OUT any decent players. They excuse may be that we didn't have the players other clubs were interested in?? This is PARTLY FJ.

Held onto players like McBean, Elton etc to long. McBean had a small currency a year ago. We missed that call. This is NOT FJ.

We gave up 2nd rounder's to easily when looking at the Cats/Hawks - their premiership list was built on 2nd rounders primarily. Eg. traded OUT 2 seconds for a 1st to get a player who was playing 2nds and on really rated at Carlton. This is a WHOPPER. This is NOT FJ.

We made to many mistakes with our First Rounders (eg. Conca = just one of those things. Lennon - not the right body type. C.Ellis - jury out but body type is skinny ).
This IS FJ.

We have topped up with seasoned C graders who are deemed not good enough by other clubs. This is NOT FJ.

We thought we were better than we were and tried to add small forwards and outside run and carry to top off our list - for about 5 years in a row! This meant we have not had anywhere near enough draft picks who are Key Position Forwards or Backs or Pure Mids. This is NOT FJ. Body types are requested by the club - it is up to the recruiters to fill that request.

Development - We have far to many CLOSE to good players. Vickery, Griffiths etc. Call them list cloggers if you will. Griffiths however as much as I like him had very low numbers in the U18's. It is proven time and time again that this VERY RARELY changes once they get to the AFL. So what that he is a good athlete. We will need him this year and he is not a complete dud - but I doubt the premier clubs are beating down our doors to get him either. This is more a draft issue than development. This IS FJ.


So to me the problem is a few fold deep. Our recruiting strategy has been incorrect. Our actual drafting not brilliant - but not a total flop. Our list management - the biggest problem.

If you agree - whom are the people who make these decisions apart from Blair, FJ and Dimma?

Great post. I like your analysis

What I would add is a focus on development. We have had a few players develop exceptionally well. But a lot show plenty of talent but go nowhere - TV, Griff, Conca, BEllis etc.
That the club sacked the development team shows where I suspect they think a big issue was. We picked a lot of talent, and that talent has too often not 'made it'.
Some of that is picking players with the wrong attitude, some bad luck (Conca, Ellis injuries), some poor development and some the coach not playing a style that allowed the players to gain confidence and improve. I reckon it is a good mix between the four elements there.

Overall, I reckon we haven't had a good vision of what we want to be as a club. We got too caught up in being clever (basing our game on what is statistically successful) without thinking about how we can differentiate ourselves to create a winning game plan and squad. So somewhere along the way a lot of players got lost without a clear vision of what they were to do, that suited their abilities. And we ended up with few inside grunt players or outside run and carry players. that meant we found it hard to get the ball if sides targeted us, and when we had it it was hard to take the game on. then the game plan became increasingly static. What was our vision of how we would win the premiership??

What I think we see is the result of lots of issues, but fundamentally a limited vision based on group think of a bunch of 'mates'. they could have been geniuses, but look like they missed the boat big time. And history shows the game plan / team couldn't stand up in finals pressure.

 

[docko911]

It's all about midfield 2nd round picks or late firsts especially in top drafts.

We have draft way to many KPP's in recent history and sweet FA mids.

04 Pattison McGuane - shit draft
05 Cleve Hughes
06 Riewoldt
07 Rance
08 Vickery Post
09 Griffiths Asbtury
10 Batchelor (plays like one), Derickx
11 Elton
12 McBean
13 traded 2nd for Hampson
14 McKenzie (late pick)
15 Broad

Traded for Maric as well.

I've missed plenty but we seem to draft at least 1 every year in the top 50.

 

[Glitch]

Of the last 6 drafts : Broad, McKenzie, Hampson, McBean, Elton, Batchelor, Broad and Derickx. Only 1 - maybe 2 of those should be on our list in my opinion.

In fact rucks are not Keys - so take off Derickx and Hampson. McBean was a crumber - not a key forward. batch and broad are at best 3rd Talls.

We have not taken enough keys. Not near enough.

If none develop - you must go back to the well and try again.

We have the same issue with Mids as you point out.

 

[NZ_Tiger]

I hold some mild hope for our future in the way our VFL finished off the year. It's all well and good saying we are playing Tiger footy and not too focused on winning but more on the method, for me I want us to teach our players to win and compete without question as the number one priority. Some of the stuff we did in the VFL in the second half of the season is what I think we are developing for next year.

 

[theflea]

It has to be a little of everything.

 

[Glitch]

I hold some mild hope for our future in the way our VFL finished off the year. It's all well and good saying we are playing Tiger footy and not too focused on winning but more on the method, for me I want us to teach our players to win and compete without question as the number one priority. Some of the stuff we did in the VFL in the second half of the season is what I think we are developing for next year.

Fair point.

The post seems doom and blame gloom.
It does not reflect the positives of our list.

As you point out the VFL is showing us a positive direction.

The midfield could be very different next year. Add Prestia and Vlastuin (my wish) and Cotchin will have the space to create again like 2012.

*IF* Yarran can resurrect his career and add back McIntosh. We still need a solid defender - but the run and carry will be back.

I would release Dusty (I doubt many would spend the time to understand why) to the forward line (has to do with 1. His presence up forward 2. His defence is not as good as Vlastuin or Prestia.).

That should transform both our Mid attack and hopefully correct our ability to be scored upon so easily in transition.

The emergence of 2nd year and 3rd year players.

Deledio back to full fitness hopefully.

Addition by subtraction with big Vick. His offence replaced by Dusty. We lose his lacklustre defence as well.

Our big trouble again ? Lack of depth.

Game plans will be different with the new coaches. Our ability to execute them though??

An injury to any key player and we lack any depth.

Top 8 is def achievable .... but a lot has to go right. A few injuries and we can be bottom 4.

 

[RememberRoyce]

We need to get to the original source...












John Pitura.

 

[Goldust]

Fair point.

The post seems doom and blame gloom.
It does not reflect the positives of our list.

As you point out the VFL is showing us a positive direction.

The midfield could be very different next year. Add Prestia and Vlastuin (my wish) and Cotchin will have the space to create again like 2012.

*IF* Yarran can resurrect his career and add back McIntosh. We still need a solid defender - but the run and carry will be back.

I would release Dusty (I doubt many would spend the time to understand why) to the forward line (has to do with 1. His presence up forward 2. His defence is not as good as Vlastuin or Prestia.).

That should transform both our Mid attack and hopefully correct our ability to be scored upon so easily in transition.

The emergence of 2nd year and 3rd year players.

Deledio back to full fitness hopefully.

Addition by subtraction with big Vick. His offence replaced by Dusty. We lose his lacklustre defence as well.

Our big trouble again ? Lack of depth.

Game plans will be different with the new coaches. Our ability to execute them though??

An injury to any key player and we lack any depth.

Top 8 is def achievable .... but a lot has to go right. A few injuries and we can be bottom 4.

WITH respect, this is what the club hoped for this year essentially, a season of improvement on the back of EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING going right. Deledio back to full fitness, emergence of second and third year players, Yarran reseurrecting his career and instead of adding back McIntosh we were adding back Conca. Things ALWAYS go wrong. Players will always go backwards as ill some go forwards. But the Tigers seemed to bank on every player getting better.
Truth is the problem is all of the above - recruting, list management, development and coaching. When you see a guy like Elton whoi is liing up for game number three in round 21 of his his fifth year there's problems with development, but why are we waiting five years to find this out?

 

[TheProwler]

Helen D'Amico......

 

[tdyen]

Fair point.

The post seems doom and blame gloom.
It does not reflect the positives of our list.

As you point out the VFL is showing us a positive direction.

The midfield could be very different next year. Add Prestia and Vlastuin (my wish) and Cotchin will have the space to create again like 2012.

*IF* Yarran can resurrect his career and add back McIntosh. We still need a solid defender - but the run and carry will be back.

I would release Dusty (I doubt many would spend the time to understand why) to the forward line (has to do with 1. His presence up forward 2. His defence is not as good as Vlastuin or Prestia.).

That should transform both our Mid attack and hopefully correct our ability to be scored upon so easily in transition.

The emergence of 2nd year and 3rd year players.

Deledio back to full fitness hopefully.

Addition by subtraction with big Vick. His offence replaced by Dusty. We lose his lacklustre defence as well.

Our big trouble again ? Lack of depth.

Game plans will be different with the new coaches. Our ability to execute them though??

An injury to any key player and we lack any depth.

Top 8 is def achievable .... but a lot has to go right. A few injuries and we can be bottom 4.

I doubt Lids will play a full season again. We have to win without him.
I reckon it's been recruiting that's been the problem, as the original poster said not enough picks taken in the draft each year and the picks we did take were ordinary. I just don't think they have an eye for talent. Most kids show it by their teenage years.

 

[tonemeister]

Helen D'Amico......

She was pretty grim wasn't she, as we have been ever since. Maybe she's related to Dan Richardson.

 

[CoggaRules]

In terms of the last decade or so it's pretty simple to understand that we had the wrong people hiring the wrong people in the wrong positions. Right now if we got the 2004 draft right or let's just settle for saying if we actually had the required smarts we would have been enjoying a decade like the dawks have. Imagine if instead of ****ing up most drafts we took Pav before Fiora and added Lids and Buddy and topped that up with Heppel. Seems to be a recurring theme at tigerland. ie our recruiters were shit trucks and the trend continues. Let's see if we can get it right now. Because IMO you should be out on your ear after one draft if you **** up. Because a head recruiter had his own vision on what to look for to add to the facets that are part of the recruiters hand book so when you have selected a Conca and a Heppel was there, call him in and sack them on the spot. This is how you get change

 

[Hans McGregor]

I think it's a bit of both. The recruiters cop all the blame though. People forget the fact that our development is actually horrendous. Surprised they weren't the first to go in the shake up.

 

[Goldust]

I doubt Lids will play a full season again. We have to win without him.

I think once you come to this logical and inevitable conclusion, it's why you trade him and try and set yourslef up the future.
Our history is littered with players we held on to who were injured and went that way, I'd urge us to be brave.

 

[Goldust]

In terms of the last decade or so it's pretty simple to understand that we had the wrong people hiring the wrong people in the wrong positions. Right now if we got the 2004 draft right or let's just settle for saying if we actually had the required smarts we would have been enjoying a decade like the dawks have. Imagine if instead of ******* up most drafts we took Pav before Fiora and added Lids and Buddy and topped that up with Heppel. Seems to be a recurring theme at tigerland. ie our recruiters were shit trucks and the trend continues. Let's see if we can get it right now. Because IMO you should be out on your ear after one draft if you **** up. Because a head recruiter had his own vision on what to look for to add to the facets that are part of the recruiters hand book so when you have selected a Conca and a Heppel was there, call him in and sack them on the spot. This is how you get change

You ignore the obvious - and what I tell everybody. We get that call right ... Pav over Fiora .... neither Deledio or Franklin gets anywhere near Richmond. We'd likely be drafting somewhere around 7 or 8, so maybe Jordan Lewis.
Awful draft after Deledio, Griffin, Franklin, Roughy and Lewis. Picks 8-22 Meesen, Jordan Russell, Chris Egan, Adam Thomson, Meyer, Bate, Monfries, Dunn, Pattison, McQualter, Wood, Willits, Polo, Murphy, Jessee Wells and Rusling. Not so funny how Adam Thomson and McQualter eventually found their way to us. You'd only take Monfries out of thta lot.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Lids will play 5 more seasons.

All you pretenders saying he is done, cut our losses are just fear mongerers.

Based on what Intel is he injured beyond repair?

He had a bad year.. Sure.

But he is also one of the most durable players in the league & takes care of himself 100%.

 

[Glitch]

You ignore the obvious - and what I tell everybody. We get that call right ... Pav over Fiora .... neither Deledio or Franklin gets anywhere near Richmond. We'd likely be drafting somewhere around 7 or 8, so maybe Jordan Lewis.
Awful draft after Deledio, Griffin, Franklin, Roughy and Lewis. Picks 8-22 Meesen, Jordan Russell, Chris Egan, Adam Thomson, Meyer, Bate, Monfries, Dunn, Pattison, McQualter, Wood, Willits, Polo, Murphy, Jessee Wells and Rusling. Not so funny how Adam Thomson and McQualter eventually found their way to us. You'd only take Monfries out of thta lot.

Are you saying it was just Luck?

I think it is a lot more luck - albeit you create your own def applies - than anything else. The teams with the best recruiting track records have so many fails.... have a look at footywire for each years draft

 

[CoggaRules]

You ignore the obvious - and what I tell everybody. We get that call right ... Pav over Fiora .... neither Deledio or Franklin gets anywhere near Richmond. We'd likely be drafting somewhere around 7 or 8, so maybe Jordan Lewis.
Awful draft after Deledio, Griffin, Franklin, Roughy and Lewis. Picks 8-22 Meesen, Jordan Russell, Chris Egan, Adam Thomson, Meyer, Bate, Monfries, Dunn, Pattison, McQualter, Wood, Willits, Polo, Murphy, Jessee Wells and Rusling. Not so funny how Adam Thomson and McQualter eventually found their way to us. You'd only take Monfries out of thta lot.

Sorry I omitted the obvious and if we were real smart like on the job smart, knowing how to milk the system as it was, with Pav in meant nothing until we wanted it to mean something. We have forever had some dumb ****s in positions that needed to have super sharp operators. You can play Pav at CHF forever and still finish last or near enough to it..

 

[CoggaRules]

Are you saying it was just Luck?

I think it is a lot more luck - albeit you create your own def applies - than anything else. The teams with the best recruiting track records have so many fails.... have a look at footywire for each years draft

You see this is where everyone gets it arse about when discussing this subject, yes they have so many fails, but they have the "best recruiting records" too...we havent and we have so many fails. I dont regard a success being a player was drafted and he played 150 games because as we well know at tigerland there have been truckloads of hacks get to that number because of the good ol excuse, no one better to take their place. I regard players who make an impact on the scoreboard on game day and on the ladder position and affect the opposition in how they plan for us.
I have been told many times over the last 2 decades by close mates, who worked with or had a mate who was say an analyst for other clubs and it was the same thing each time. We plan to allow x y and z etc all the room and space they need because if the tigers have the ball we want them to have it, knowing there is an 80% chance it will be in our possesion with the next play and we focus on say 3 players and make sure they are starved of delivery.
Thats how you had the likes of Chris Hyde racking up "elite" numbers that kept the tiger heads gooing gaga and thinking they were watching some kind of super star when in essence he was a plodder that all and sundry were high fiving when he got the ball.

 

[richoplzbreed]

doesn't help when your coach pumps games into his lovechilds like chaplin, morris, pushup queen, newman when they're not worthy and failing to reard blokes klling it in the reserves. it took 12 near bog's before he gave miles senior promotion, dea was on fire last year so he doesn't give him a single game and we delist him for free. now we're forced to play vlastuin as a small defender instead of an inside mid its too ******ed. we could've had jeff garlett for peanuts instead we are forced to pay overs for rioli, we offer mitch robinson 1 year base salary all he wanted was 2 years. instead we get townsend and moore. robinson wins a b&f and comes second. taylor hunt gets games after crucifying us againt the pies. we cant develop players and when we let players go they have no currency. blokes like Arnott, dea, ohanlon, mcbean, butler never got a genuine crack at senior football.

 

[Glitch]

doesn't help when your coach pumps games into his lovechilds like chaplin, morris, pushup queen, newman when they're not worthy and failing to reard blokes klling it in the reserves. it took 12 near bog's before he gave miles senior promotion, dea was on fire last year so he doesn't give him a single game and we delist him for free. now we're forced to play vlastuin as a small defender instead of an inside mid its too ******ed. we could've had jeff garlett for peanuts instead we are forced to pay overs for rioli, we offer mitch robinson 1 year base salary all he wanted was 2 years. instead we get townsend and moore. robinson wins a b&f and comes second. taylor hunt gets games after crucifying us againt the pies. we cant develop players and when we let players go they have no currency. blokes like Arnott, dea, ohanlon, mcbean, butler never got a genuine crack at senior football.

The trouble with trying to be right - we cling to every shred of evidence as a proof. This stops us being analytical and really getting to the deeper source of the problems.

Unless we keep an open mind so we can really learn what has been going wrong - ie keep analysing until the picture is very clear - we are probably going to make the same mistakes!

Miles - it was clear that DH's attitude was : you must be earning games by knocking down the door. That was fine when we were winning. He changed - as he should have - when we were not winning. No issue from me there.

Dea is an ok footballer. I rated him and I agree he deserved more opportunities. He's not much more than a C grader though...

McBean - he has not got AfL intensity. Doesn't deserve a game.

Arnott etc - they had their chance !!!!!! They were not good enough.

Chaplain - was good in numerous areas - and until this year, was an integral part of one of the best backlines in the league (stats back that up!)

Newman - he was a good player !!

King - was deserved of the opportunities he got !

Sorry - but I am just left thinking you hate the coach and so can't see the wood for the trees.

 

[tigs2010]

Of the last 6 drafts : Broad, McKenzie, Hampson, McBean, Elton, Batchelor, Broad and Derickx. Only 1 - maybe 2 of those should be on our list in my opinion.

In fact rucks are not Keys - so take off Derickx and Hampson. McBean was a crumber - not a key forward. batch and broad are at best 3rd Talls.

We have not taken enough keys. Not near enough.

If none develop - you must go back to the well and try again.

We have the same issue with Mids as you point out.

We would have taken more than enough if any of them were any good.

 

[Mr Magic]

Who is to blame for the failures of our current list.

I had a look at Geelong, Hawthorn and the Dogs as examples of Melbourne teams who have done well....to mirror against our failures.

The Geelong Sides of the 07+ era were built upon a plethora of picks in 99,fails in 00 then very good 01 and 02.

In 99 they got Joel Corey (good call) before they then took the following players (picks sub 25)
David Spriggs then Ezra Bray then Daniel Foster They then took GUNS Paul Chapman Cameron Ling and Corey Enright.
This was on the back of trades to get picks.

In 00 the SAME recruiters traded away many top picks for Kent Kingsley, Justin Murpy and Mitch White....
They got Josh Hunt at 44 Daniel Lowther and Simpson (ok)
This was a big fail of a draft .... same recruiters.

In 01
Grgic (trade) Bartel, Then Charlie Gardner before Stevie J Ablett (FS) Henry Playfair Matt McCarthy, David Johnson

Hits and misses here...

And this is meant to be the premier recruiting team!

What is clear - they were VERY ACTIVE. They knew that it is a odds game - the more picks you have the more you will get right. They chose the right types of players.

Go and look at the Western Bulldogs side and see how they were assembled. It is very interesting..... they had very few drafts you would think they really got right. BUt they recruited to a well defined structure it seems. They chose enough of the right types.

Hawthorn - similar to Geelong were assembled with a large mixture of successes and failures. But they got the right mix of players and were very active. For example, they traded Croad out for a top pick. They were lucky to get him back for peanuts. They were active - that activity created their luck. Their 05 draft was woeful. Had they got it right....ouch. They could have added Pendelbury over XEllis and Ryder over Beau Dowler.
They then went on to take Birchall, Bailey, Muston T.Tuck
06 they took Thorp before Selwood! Renouf before Shane Edwards and let go FS Josh Kennedy!
But they obviously had a lot of successful years...01 = a mix of hits and misses, 04 = same


But they were active! They were active for many years.


My read on our problem? It is a long list....

We have just NOT taken enough draft picks, especially 2nd rounder's. In part this is because we haven't been prepared to trade OUT any decent players. They excuse may be that we didn't have the players other clubs were interested in?? This is PARTLY FJ.

Held onto players like McBean, Elton etc to long. McBean had a small currency a year ago. We missed that call. This is NOT FJ.

We gave up 2nd rounder's to easily when looking at the Cats/Hawks - their premiership list was built on 2nd rounders primarily. Eg. traded OUT 2 seconds for a 1st to get a player who was playing 2nds and on really rated at Carlton. This is a WHOPPER. This is NOT FJ.

We made to many mistakes with our First Rounders (eg. Conca = just one of those things. Lennon - not the right body type. C.Ellis - jury out but body type is skinny ).
This IS FJ.

We have topped up with seasoned C graders who are deemed not good enough by other clubs. This is NOT FJ.

We thought we were better than we were and tried to add small forwards and outside run and carry to top off our list - for about 5 years in a row! This meant we have not had anywhere near enough draft picks who are Key Position Forwards or Backs or Pure Mids. This is NOT FJ. Body types are requested by the club - it is up to the recruiters to fill that request.

Development - We have far to many CLOSE to good players. Vickery, Griffiths etc. Call them list cloggers if you will. Griffiths however as much as I like him had very low numbers in the U18's. It is proven time and time again that this VERY RARELY changes once they get to the AFL. So what that he is a good athlete. We will need him this year and he is not a complete dud - but I doubt the premier clubs are beating down our doors to get him either. This is more a draft issue than development. This IS FJ.


So to me the problem is a few fold deep. Our recruiting strategy has been incorrect. Our actual drafting not brilliant - but not a total flop. Our list management - the biggest problem.

If you agree - whom are the people who make these decisions apart from Blair, FJ and Dimma?

We are where we are because we have done the opposite of Hawthorn, the Bulldogs and GWS!!!

We have lied to fans and taken short cuts.

We have made our own failures by giving away our future which now has become the present!!!!

The fact is our on field failures are because of our off field failures in particular our list management which has propelled us into mediocrity and failure!!!

We have never been near contention because of Danny Frawley, DH, BH methodology which is based on insanity with no track record of success!!! Like Browny said, far too many recycled players, not evenough top draftees like Hodge,Bartel, Bontempelli, Roughead, Pendlebury and Prestia is another one that represents recycled madness!!!

 

[Mr Magic]

Of the last 6 drafts : Broad, McKenzie, Hampson, McBean, Elton, Batchelor, Broad and Derickx. Only 1 - maybe 2 of those should be on our list in my opinion.

In fact rucks are not Keys - so take off Derickx and Hampson. McBean was a crumber - not a key forward. batch and broad are at best 3rd Talls.

We have not taken enough keys. Not near enough.

If none develop - you must go back to the well and try again.

We have the same issue with Mids as you point out.

Where did you come from???

You actually post with a lot of acute awareness IMO!!!