List Mgmt. List Management Thread

[ams4crows]

At least we only had one really poor year and it was the covid year, you could see after that year we improved little by little and played better footy every year since then, sometimes the results didn't always show it but you could tell we were building a strong foundation.

Just look at West Coast they are gonna spend 4 years anchored to the bottom, I feel for their fans.

Or North who were bottom two with us in 2020, have had way more top end picks than us but have done nothing with them.

Developing team defence should be the number 1 focus for those bottom rebuilding sides, credit to Nicks he did a great job building us back up, is he they guy to takes us all the way that I'm unsure of, but no doubt he helped massively in the change of culture.

 

[cleanhands]

At least we only had one really poor year and it was the covid year, you could see after that year we improved little by little and played better footy every year since then, sometimes the results didn't always show it but you could tell we were building a strong foundation.

Just look at West Coast they are gonna spend 4 years anchored to the bottom, I feel for their fans.

Or North who were bottom two with us in 2020, have had way more top end picks than us but have done nothing with them.

Developing team defence should be the number 1 focus for those bottom rebuilding sides, credit to Nicks he did a great job building us back up, is he they guy to takes us all the way that I'm unsure of, but no doubt he helped massively in the change of culture.

No issues with last year?

 

[Soggy2112]

But you don't dropped right back to bottom 4 after having rebuilt your list to close to playing Finals. Even Nicks said he overdone the change of game plan at the start of last year that even the players were confused and didn't know how to implement it. Hence, we underperformed last year.

We certainly underachieved last year. However, if this group goes on to be successful, we will look back on it as the blip that often happens with rebuilding teams.

Melbourne finished 17th in 2019, Richmond finished 13th in 2016, Hawthorn finished 9th in 2009, Geelong finished 10th in 2006.

I’m not sure why, but it seems a common theme that teams undergoing full rebuilds seem to have a down year before they’re properly ready to go.

 

[GrommoT]

Only last year we finished in the bottom 4. We underachieved

Have a sneaky feeling we might have tanked it a bit .... once we lost TT and someone else I can't recall off hand, our season looked like it was shot.

 

[PeterSalt]

We certainly underachieved last year. However, if this group goes on to be successful, we will look back on it as the blip that often happens with rebuilding teams.

Melbourne finished 17th in 2019, Richmond finished 13th in 2016, Hawthorn finished 9th in 2009, Geelong finished 10th in 2006.

I’m not sure why, but it seems a common theme that teams undergoing full rebuilds seem to have a down year before they’re properly ready to go.

You mount an argument that Melbourne don't win a premiership without that fall down to 17th. They picked up Luke Jackson in that draft

 

[Mostyn]

Making finals this year is standard for a successful rebuild. Typical is about 5 years to finals.

The clubs you're talking about had failed rebuilds and needed to go around again. So it's not so much we rebuilt quickly, it's just it looks like we don't need to do more than one

That's probably fair enough - are there many examples of clubs doing a rebuild and getting it right first time? West Coast are four years in and seem miles off it, Essendon the same (as in miles off it - not only four years in!).

Collingwood, Geelong and Sydney don't seem to rebuild. The Lions took nine years. I guess maybe GWS?

 

[Mostyn]

But you don't dropped right back to bottom 4 after having rebuilt your list to close to playing Finals. Even Nicks said he overdone the change of game plan at the start of last year that even the players were confused and didn't know how to implement it. Hence, we underperformed last year.

Isn't exactly what happened - a backwards step before the final push into ongoing success - exactly what happened with Richmond, Geelong and Melbourne? That's my memory, at least.

 

[Mostyn]

No issues with last year?

Sure, but not enough to say it was a massive black mark against the rebuild. They finished the year almost with 100% percentage - there were good signs, just a few issues with injury, personnel and some strategic errors they had to fix.

 

[Velvet George]

They had a shocking 2019 after making a prelim in 2020.

Yes but how did he go rogue bonkers? Did he change their gameplan to take away their strength?

 

[Scorpus]

That's probably fair enough - are there many examples of clubs doing a rebuild and getting it right first time? West Coast are four years in and seem miles off it, Essendon the same (as in miles off it - not only four years in!).

Collingwood, Geelong and Sydney don't seem to rebuild. The Lions took nine years. I guess maybe GWS?

Adelaide: Last 2020, Finals 2025 (5 Years after entering bottom 4)

West Coast: 15th 2008, Last 2010, Finals 2011 (3 Years), Flag 2018

Fremantle: 16th 2016, Finals 2022 (6 Years)

Port Adelaide: 13th 2008, Finals 2013 (5 Years)

Western Bulldogs: 15th 2012, Finals 2015 (3 Years), Flag 2016

Hawthorn: 15th 2020, Finals 2024 (4 Years)

Hawthorn: 15th 2004, Finals 2007 (3 Years), Flag 2008

The longer ones are the fail teams. Melbourne two rebuilds, Carlton probably 4 rebuilds this decade, Gold Coast on their second build, Brisbane built twice. I class them as multiple rebuilds because the first group of players they took failed. Eg Trengove and Scully at Melbourne, Longer/Docherty/Yeo at Brisbane, Lynch/May at Gold Coast

West Coast (current) and North both on long single rebuilds

 

[Soggy2112]

Yes but how did he go rogue bonkers? Did he change their gameplan to take away their strength?

I don’t remember in depth but I’m sure there were similar conversations occurring amongst Melbourne supporters.

Nicks no doubt got it wrong. However, at the same time, we are now one of the best defensive sides in the comp, and have a really well rounded game. So I can see what he was trying to do, and I think it would be harsh to say that some of that defensive game has not been developed as a result of what he did last year.

I am still not sold on Nicks, but I really don’t think he gets enough credit for how good our defence has been this year.

As I said, only time will tell, but we are in a very good spot now, and we might look back on 2024 as some teething problems that ultimately took us forward.

 

[rabidcrow]

I don’t think he is at it stands right now. Would need a crisp finish where his opponent isn’t the key springboard of oppo attacking runs out of 50. He still commands the lions share of entries and the return on that investment hasn’t been enough to warrant an extension.

Top 30 goals
Top 15 Goal assists
Top 20 contested marks

And if he is getting the Lion share of entries then how efficient are Fog (eq 11th for goals) and Thilthorpe (7th goals, eq 7th GA, 3rd CM)

As a 3rd tall Tex has performed better than the majority of 2nd main forwards in the league - and he hasn’t appeared to hamper the development of Our two younger forwards

But I guess we could resign Burgess instead as our 3rd option? And not suggesting we have to play 3 talls in the AFL team - we could go a Cook type, but if Riley or Darcy went down for 4 weeks Tex would be the best back up a team could have

 

[Velvet George]

I don’t remember in depth but I’m sure there were similar conversations occurring amongst Melbourne supporters.

Nicks no doubt got it wrong. However, at the same time, we are now one of the best defensive sides in the comp, and have a really well rounded game. So I can see what he was trying to do, and I think it would be harsh to say that some of that defensive game has not been developed as a result of what he did last year.

I am still not sold on Nicks, but I really don’t think he gets enough credit for how good our defence has been this year.

As I said, only time will tell, but we are in a very good spot now, and we might look back on 2024 as some teething problems that ultimately took us forward.

Yes going rogue bonkers saw the club bring in Davis and send Nicks to school, plus we got Draper.

As for our defensive improvement that was going to happen with the talent we have there now, improvement up the field and attacking more. His total defensive mindset at the start of 2024 is completely different to what we are doing now and still achieving a strong defence.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Did we? Rebuilds aren't linear, and rarely are they just simple progressive improvement year on year.

Yeah, we underachieved last season as Nicks cooked our game plan over the preseason.

It's a key reason Davis was brought in for the strategy side of things.

 

[Doctor B]

Yes going rogue bonkers saw the club bring in Davis and send Nicks to school, plus we got Draper.

As for our defensive improvement that was going to happen with the talent we have there now, improvement up the field and attacking more. His total defensive mindset at the start of 2024 is completely different to what we are doing now and still achieving a strong defence.

Plus Peatling, Cumming, ANB & Balme

 

[cleanhands]

Sure, but not enough to say it was a massive black mark against the rebuild. They finished the year almost with 100% percentage - there were good signs, just a few issues with injury, personnel and some strategic errors they had to fix.

Not against our rebuilding, more our coaches

 

[Soggy2112]

Yes going rogue bonkers saw the club bring in Davis and send Nicks to school, plus we got Draper.

As for our defensive improvement that was going to happen with the talent we have there now, improvement up the field and attacking more. His total defensive mindset at the start of 2024 is completely different to what we are doing now and still achieving a strong defence.

It’s not just all about personnel. Our defensive set up is really strong, both the way we pressure up the ground and the way we set up in defensive 50.

If it was purely personnel, there is no way we would have been able to keep a hot Naughton and Darcy to 2 goals after our number one key defender went down.

 

[Velvet George]

It’s not just all about personnel. Our defensive set up is really strong, both the way we pressure up the ground and the way we set up in defensive 50.

If it was purely personnel, there is no way we would have been able to keep a hot Naughton and Darcy to 2 goals after our number one key defender went down.

So what does going slow and not taking the game on like Nicks had us doing at the start of 2024, have to do with our defensive abilities this year?

 

[Crow till I die]

So what does going slow and not taking the game on like Nicks had us doing at the start of 2024, have to do with our defensive abilities this year?

Maybe davis and possibly Balme have been able to shift Nick's thinking on how to progress?

 

[Crow till I die]

At least we only had one really poor year and it was the covid year, you could see after that year we improved little by little and played better footy every year since then, sometimes the results didn't always show it but you could tell we were building a strong foundation.

Just look at West Coast they are gonna spend 4 years anchored to the bottom, I feel for their fans.

Or North who were bottom two with us in 2020, have had way more top end picks than us but have done nothing with them.

Developing team defence should be the number 1 focus for those bottom rebuilding sides, credit to Nicks he did a great job building us back up, is he they guy to takes us all the way that I'm unsure of, but no doubt he helped massively in the change of culture.

They should be looking at Sharpe and Cumming in this years draft. Sharpe has leader written all over him and looks a 200+ game player at AFL level with his ability thats not elite projecting but very good at most things. Cumming is real x factor. Tjey just need to knuckle in and keep hitting the top end of the draft

 

[Velvet George]

Maybe davis and possibly Balme have been able to shift Nick's thinking on how to progress?

Staggers me that we’ve got a coach with a record of making poor decisions, ****ing up our 2024, club has to hire someone to oversee him, who still makes stupid decisions this year, now be lauded for our position on the ladder.

How about the fact we’ve brought in someone with a football brain who players have praised, the fact we are stacked with talent, brought in players, good draw and ridiculously low injuries.

 

[Crow till I die]

Staggers me that we’ve got a coach with a record of making poor decisions, ****ing up our 2024, club has to hire someone to oversee him, who still makes stupid decisions this year, now be lauded for our position on the ladder.

How about the fact we’ve brought in someone with a football brain who players have praised, the fact we are stacked with talent, brought in players, good draw and ridiculously low injuries.

Ha, you will get no arguments from me. Imagine we had longmire as head coach

 

[Soggy2112]

So what does going slow and not taking the game on like Nicks had us doing at the start of 2024, have to do with our defensive abilities this year?

You’re massively over simplifying things.

Do you think perhaps we were going slower because the team was focussing on setting up defensively?

That’s something I was critical of last year, and as I’ve said in many threads, there is still a lot of areas we’re I have significant doubts about Nicks, however we are now very strong BOTH offensively and defensively and that’s not purely a personnel thing.

When you look at last year, Nicks clearly identified that we needed to be stronger defensively to progress. Which when you consider how 2023 went was absolutely correct, as we lost a lot of games because we could not stop teams from piling goals on quickly.

He clearly overcorrected in 2024 and we went far too slow and moved the ball poorly. But it’s unfair to say that spending a whole season focussed on developing our defence as a team, would not have contributed to us now being a really strong defensive side.

People need to stop this narrative of everything good = Balme, Davis, Burgess etc and everything bad = Nicks. He’s the head coach, he signs off on everything, good or bad, it doesn’t matter if it’s his idea or not, it’s up to him. If you’re going to (correctly) criticise the bad, you have to acknowledge the good.

 

[Mutineer]

You’re massively over simplifying things.

Do you think perhaps we were going slower because the team was focussing on setting up defensively?

That’s something I was critical of last year, and as I’ve said in many threads, there is still a lot of areas we’re I have significant doubts about Nicks, however we are now very strong BOTH offensively and defensively and that’s not purely a personnel thing.

When you look at last year, Nicks clearly identified that we needed to be stronger defensively to progress. Which when you consider how 2023 went was absolutely correct, as we lost a lot of games because we could not stop teams from piling goals on quickly.

He clearly overcorrected in 2024 and we went far too slow and moved the ball poorly. But it’s unfair to say that spending a whole season focussed on developing our defence as a team, would not have contributed to us now being a really strong defensive side.

People need to stop this narrative of everything good = Balme, Davis, Burgess etc and everything bad = Nicks. He’s the head coach, he signs off on everything, good or bad, it doesn’t matter if it’s his idea or not, it’s up to him. If you’re going to (correctly) criticise the bad, you have to acknowledge the good.

That's what happens when people have a set agenda, why do you bother even trying to change them, it's an exercise in futility.

Maybe one day thy'll stop looking in the rear view mirror and focus on the road ahead.

 

[Velvet George]

You’re massively over simplifying things.

Do you think perhaps we were going slower because the team was focussing on setting up defensively?

That’s something I was critical of last year, and as I’ve said in many threads, there is still a lot of areas we’re I have significant doubts about Nicks, however we are now very strong BOTH offensively and defensively and that’s not purely a personnel thing.

When you look at last year, Nicks clearly identified that we needed to be stronger defensively to progress. Which when you consider how 2023 went was absolutely correct, as we lost a lot of games because we could not stop teams from piling goals on quickly.

He clearly overcorrected in 2024 and we went far too slow and moved the ball poorly. But it’s unfair to say that spending a whole season focussed on developing our defence as a team, would not have contributed to us now being a really strong defensive side.

People need to stop this narrative of everything good = Balme, Davis, Burgess etc and everything bad = Nicks. He’s the head coach, he signs off on everything, good or bad, it doesn’t matter if it’s his idea or not, it’s up to him. If you’re going to (correctly) criticise the bad, you have to acknowledge the good.

Reckon it’s you’re the one over simplifying things, “defence is good this year, what Nicks did last year must have helped”

He had us go slow last year as he was scared of turning the ball over and being hurt on the rebound. He played chicken shit football.

We are moving the ball on quicker this year, scoring more, defence has improved, wow, who would have thought.

Worrell has credited Davis for giving us levers where we only had one wood.
Curtin said it was Davis who talked to him about playing wing.