Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[1892]

The article of the Referee is correct in at least some details.

A combined junior side did play Carlton in 1891(cf the Australasian of 14 April 1891

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article140171956

which they won easily

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article8634581

and Clifton is reported to have disbanded at lest by 1893 and a new collingwood juniors club created

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59755762

And again a merger of sorts between Britannia and Clifton is inferred in this 1917 article:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article120295974

And here again in 1916:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121174237

Thanks heaps, I'm always interested in learning more about the history of the game and especially Collingwood.

These only talk about Britannia successfully applying to join the VFA as Collingwood in 1891
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8617318
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/193413388

however the book CFC 1892-1948 contains an interview with E. Wilson who was the club's first Secretary. In terms of players "We used a few from the old Britannia, but we got others from Preston, Clifton Hill United (Mr John Wren... was a noted wing player in that team and we asked him to play...)", so perhaps it was more in terms of players?


Piecing it together, from what I can gather:

1891 - Britannia application | Collingwood admitted to VFA
1892 - Britannia disbanded | Colllingwood VFA with players from Britannia, Clifton + others | Clifton juniors
1893 - Collingwood VFA | Clifton disbanded | Collingwood Juniors with players from Clifton + others in VJFA

I know Collingwood Juniors acted as a feeder club for Collingwood, eg your link http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59755762 refers to Halewood, who I assume to be http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/frank-hailwood/

A guess, but Eastham could also be Eastman who was later president of Collingwood District, and for a time our reserves B+F was named after.


1904 March - CJFC presented VJFA runners up caps http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/197234312
1904 April - Collingwood Juniors in North Suburan Football Association (3rd rate clubs north of the Yarra) http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/67428827
1904 - Fitzroy District admitted to MJFA http://www.vafa.com.au/history/history-vafa/
1905 - Collingwood Juniors disbanded http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/73254774
1906 - Fitzroy District name changed to Collingwood Districts and played at Victoria Park


Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I gather the VJFA was the VFA reserves while the MJFA acted as the VFL reserves. Complete guess work, but perhaps the introduction of Fitzroy District lead to Collingwood Juniors stepping down a level and ultimately disbanding, which in turn allowed for Fitzroy District change name and move to Victoria Park?

 

[royals1922]

Don't discount the excerpts from the Referee. Although published in NSW, it had often good football history articles up to the early 20s and is therefore a credit worthy source.

Strangely there is very little I can find about the 1892 disbandment of Clifton Hill.
I will look again but there wasn't much. I was thinking that a local Collingwood newspaper that didn't make it on to trove would answer that.

My hypothesis , and it is purely that, is that Britannia become Collingwood. I'm not sure whether Britannia changed its name or itself disbanded but Collingwood came from them, at least according to the Trove sources.

A little later Clifton Hill disband and their players drift to their local club Britannia.

Only a hypothesis however.

 

[Collingwoodity]

This seems to explain it:

http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/britannia-football-club/

The result of the struggle to form a VFA club that was truly representative of Collingwood was Britannia’s dissolution following a meeting at the Grace Darling Hotel in early 1892. Britannia’s treasurer, committeemen and the majority of Britannia’s declared their allegiances to Fitzroy in favour of backing the uncertain future of the soon to be formed Collingwood Football Club.

There is a plaque at the Grace Darling hotel now on Smith Street, Collingwood that states something along the lines of "here on x day 1892 the Collingwood Football Club was formed"

 

[royals1922]

This seems to explain it:

http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/britannia-football-club/

Issue is that there are some reports, albeit only so far from another newspaper, the Referee, that Clifton Hill juniors also had an involvement in the formation of Collingwood along with Britannia.

I still have to check it against available sources but there a line of reports which suggest they did.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Issue is that there are some reports, albeit only so far from another newspaper, the Referee, that Clifton Hill juniors also had an involvement in the formation of Collingwood along with Britannia.

I still have to check it against available sources but there a line of reports which suggest they did.

No doubt you are correct. I think some of the Britannia players went to Fitzroy and some to Collingwood which would have required Collingwood to obtain players from local clubs i.e. Clifton.

You are correct, but I don't know how Clifton dissolved/merged etc...

 

[royals1922]

An interesting article on the formation of Collingwood from the Daily News of Western Australia of 29 April 1892 which suggests there was some irregularity:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article76458188

Another Article from the Referee from 27 September 1922 again says that Collingwood were
a combination of Clifton and Britannia with the bulk of the new organisation coming from Britannia.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article127923903

Clifton Hill played Darling Gardens in Clifton Hill.

Also another article from the referee of 9 August 1916 says that in 1892 the 2 clubs amalgamated.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121174237

 

[royals1922]

An article about Jack Joyce, the "Father of Collingwood" which gives great detail about the creation of Collingwood - Aporting Globe of 23 August 1922

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184798020

And this article from the Sporting Globe of 12 July 1924 gives the names of the drivers of the Junior clubs

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article185067300

 

[the croucher]

Any update on all those "incorrect player list" questions ?

Doesn't seem to have been any comment for a month or more.

 

[rbartlett]

Any update on all those "incorrect player list" questions ?

Doesn't seem to have been any comment for a month or more.

Well as for the Richmond 1916 season
Stephen Rodgers has confirmed the following new tallies for the below players for that season.

Collopy 1
Thorp 13
Burns 1
Bettles 11
Stewart 9

 

[35Daicos]

Any update on all those "incorrect player list" questions ?

Doesn't seem to have been any comment for a month or more.

There's not a lot of news to report from my end, though it was certainly remiss of me to not at least provide some sort of an update.

The last I heard from the AFL Statistics folks they were working on one batch of updates/corrections and getting close to getting them finalised. It does say in the email "Briefly : ... and we have basically confirmed Rich, Fitz, and Carl 1916. Those changes will 'go into the records' on Tues afternoon."

That email arrived some time ago, I did imagine there would be another email once the changes were official spelling out exactly what changes had been made (game by game), I would then have passed that news on.

Nothing much was said about any of the issues raised on page 9 of this thread, though it was suggested it may be a while before they were looked at.

I've just sent an email to S. Rodgers asking if he can let me know exactly what the situation is.

 

[35Daicos]

AFL Tables has Jason Wild playing 69 games for Collingwood (with 12 games in his debut season) and the Footy Works program agrees with this, yet the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has 70 games and the 1999 Grand Final Football Record has him finishing on that total. The (now defunct) AFL Historical Statistics website also had him playing 70 career games, with 13 in 1995.

There seems to be no doubt that Wild played 69 career games, not 70. Most other sources have him playing 70 games (13 in 1995), with Collingwood Forever website, The Football Record and others having it wrong.

The Historical Statistics website 1995 Collingwood Player List has Scott Burns playing 20 games that year (should be 21), 13 for Wild. The problem looks to have come from Wild being credited with playing the round 6 1995 game against Richmond, Burns in fact played.

Burns can even be seen playing the rd. 6 game here:-

Burns career record is wrong with several sources as well, all because of the error with the 1995 rd. 6 match. The AFL Historical Statistics site, Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers, The AFL Record Season Guide and no doubt others have him on 264 games. It should be 265 games (AFL Tables also has this correct).

Edit: I've also sent an email to the AFL folks regarding this issue, and been advised that Col H. should be able to look into it.

 

[35Daicos]

Any update on all those "incorrect player list" questions ?

Doesn't seem to have been any comment for a month or more.

I've just received an email from Steve Rodgers in response to my request for an update on the status of the "investigation" into these issues and here's the relevant part of it:-

I'm at the AFL now, and for some reason we're super-busy - like mid-season!

Let me just say, all those discrepancies you brought up a month to 6 weeks ago - well, the amendments have all been made! They just need, now, to 'filter through', into the records - the ones you see. That may or may not be, before Xmas - but you'll definitely notice them.


(I just can't put my hands on them now - but you know what I mean; St K, Melb, Uni, Fitz - definitely those. Also bits and pieces Col has added. )

 

[the croucher]

I've just received an email from Steve Rodgers in response to my request for an update on the status of the "investigation" into these issues and here's the relevant part of it:-

I'm at the AFL now, and for some reason we're super-busy - like mid-season!

Let me just say, all those discrepancies you brought up a month to 6 weeks ago - well, the amendments have all been made! They just need, now, to 'filter through', into the records - the ones you see. That may or may not be, before Xmas - but you'll definitely notice them.


(I just can't put my hands on them now - but you know what I mean; St K, Melb, Uni, Fitz - definitely those. Also bits and pieces Col has added. )

Thanks for the various updates throughout the day.

Glad to know that AFL History staff have recognised that some further work is needed on the "player list" issue.

Quite extraordinary too that the Burns/Wild figures from only 20 years ago are/were listed incorrectly.

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks for the various updates throughout the day.

Glad to know that AFL History staff have recognised that some further work is needed on the "player list" issue.

Quite extraordinary too that the Burns/Wild figures from only 20 years ago are/were listed incorrectly.

Unfortunately, there's nothing overly useful with what I've been able to pass on. I really was hoping for a game by game rundown on what has been changed in the records so far. I wouldn't expect people to want to read through the last few pages of this thread, then read the bit I've included from the emails, and then try and decipher exactly what the AFL people have come up with.

It's obvious that there are bound to be lots of problems still to be found with team lineups from (especially) the earlier years of the competition. I haven't even been looking in recent times (while waiting to hear if they had caught up on the backlog). It does sound as if they have put in a fair effort to catch up somewhat, I suspect a lot of work will need to be done in the future before we can be reasonably confident that what the official records show is close enough to being correct.

The Burns/Wild issue is indeed a strange one. Because the likes of AFL Tables and Footy Works have their figures correct it seems likely to me that the AFL may have noticed and corrected the errors somewhere along the line, if so it's puzzling that incorrect figures can still be found (even in the latest AFL Record Season Guide).

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Also, Scott Burns and Jason Wild do not look alike whatsoever but maybe they were at the time a bit put off by the Red hair.

 

[the croucher]

AFL Tables has Jason Wild playing 69 games for Collingwood (with 12 games in his debut season) and the Footy Works program agrees with this, yet the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has 70 games and the 1999 Grand Final Football Record has him finishing on that total. The (now defunct) AFL Historical Statistics website also had him playing 70 career games, with 13 in 1995.

There seems to be no doubt that Wild played 69 career games, not 70. Most other sources have him playing 70 games (13 in 1995), with Collingwood Forever website, The Football Record and others having it wrong.

The Historical Statistics website 1995 Collingwood Player List has Scott Burns playing 20 games that year (should be 21), 13 for Wild. The problem looks to have come from Wild being credited with playing the round 6 1995 game against Richmond, Burns in fact played.

Burns can even be seen playing the rd. 6 game here:-

Burns career record is wrong with several sources as well, all because of the error with the 1995 rd. 6 match. The AFL Historical Statistics site, Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers, The AFL Record Season Guide and no doubt others have him on 264 games. It should be 265 games (AFL Tables also has this correct).

Edit: I've also sent an email to the AFL folks regarding this issue, and been advised that Col H. should be able to look into it.

The Collingwood Forever website credits Wild with playing in the Rnd 12 match 1995 vs Footscray, and doesn't list Burns who did play in that match !
http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/matches/1995-western-bulldogs-vs-collingwood-round-12/

 

[35Daicos]

The Collingwood Forever website credits Wild with playing in the Rnd 12 match 1995 vs Footscray, and doesn't list Burns who did play in that match !
http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/matches/1995-western-bulldogs-vs-collingwood-round-12/

Yes, they've actually got 22 players named when there should be 21. Wild stands out somewhat, with no stats alongside his name. Burns is there, he's at the bottom of the list.

They (correctly) don't have Wild as having played the rd. 6 game, but it's almost as if they thought they may as well give him another game to make his career tally match the figure of 70 that they have!
http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/jason-wild/

I recently sent a message to the website regarding this (and the related issues with the players' career game tallies) but no-one has bothered to reply, or to fix the mistakes. It appears there has been very little in the way of updates to the Collingwood Forever website since it was unveiled (early in 2014 I think). I don't think there's anything at all from the 2015 season. An absolutely dismal effort, especially given all the fanfare at the time of it's launch.

 

[the croucher]

Yes, they've actually got 22 players named when there should be 21. Wild stands out somewhat, with no stats alongside his name. Burns is there, he's at the bottom of the list.

They (correctly) don't have Wild as having played the rd. 6 game, but it's almost as if they thought they may as well give him another game to make his career tally match the figure of 70 that they have!
http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/jason-wild/

I recently sent a message to the website regarding this (and the related issues with the players' career game tallies) but no-one has bothered to reply, or to fix the mistakes. It appears there has been very little in the way of updates to the Collingwood Forever website since it was unveiled (early in 2014 I think). I don't think there's anything at all from the 2015 season. An absolutely dismal effort, especially given all the fanfare at the time of it's launch.

Ah, obviously once I saw Wild's name I didn't scroll page down far enough to see Burns...oops !

As for website feedback button - your experience is exactly same as mine, not worth a cracker.
So I don't bother anymore. Have much better success by contacting Michael Roberts direct.

 

[35Daicos]

Any update on all those "incorrect player list" questions ?

Doesn't seem to have been any comment for a month or more.

I've just received a brief message from Col Hutchinson in regards to my two emails where he says "I will provide you with an appropriate response when time permits in the next few days."

With a bit of luck there will be a detailed summary of exactly what changes have been made. It would also be nice to find out just what Steve Rodgers was referring to when he said "Also bits and pieces Col has added."

 

[rbartlett]

If it's any help in the meantime
I believe these are the changes that were raised here and endorsed by Stephen Rodgers via email to me

The changes all relate to Richmond 1916

Old: Will Collopy - 1 game - Rd 5 only
New: Will Collopy - 1 game - Rd 8 only (he did not play Rd 5, that spot is taken by Vic Thorp, see below). Will's career tally remains at 1 game.

Old: Thorp - did not play Rd 5
New: Thorp - did play Rd 5 (Therefore he played all 13 games that season. Therefore his career tally is now 263)

Old: Bill Burns - played Rd 2 and Rd 8
New: Bill Burns - played Rd 2 only. (Did not play Rd 8, that spot is now taken by Collopy) Therefore Bill Burns career tally is now 53.

Old: Ray Stewart played Rd 6
New: Arthur Bettles played Rd 6, Ray Stewart did not. (Therefore Bettles career tally now 74) (Stewart's career tally now 30)

 

[35Daicos]

Old: Thorp - did not play Rd 5
New: Thorp - did play Rd 5 (Therefore he played all 13 games that season. Therefore his career tally is now 263)

I'd love to know just what may have caused the changes to be made in the first place (I think only a few years back) with Thorp losing the rd. 5 game, Collopy getting his spot, but then Burns being given Collopy's position in the rd. 8 side!

Good to see it seems to have been sorted out now, and Thorp has gone back to 263 games.

 

[rbartlett]

I'd love to know just what may have caused the changes to be made in the first place (I think only a few years back) with Thorp losing the rd. 5 game, Collopy getting his spot, but then Burns being given Collopy's position in the rd. 8 side!

Good to see it seems to have been sorted out now, and Thorp has gone back to 263 games.

This is an extract from the email from Stephen Rodgers:
"there are so many weird - virtually inexplicable - things; including the fact that the 'original' sheets look, in the main, more accurate than the currently 'amended' ones. (eg. who can explain why Collopy was 'moved' from Rnd 8 to Rnd 5!)"

 

[royals1922]

I was just doing some random checking.

Arthur Melsey from Geelong from 1903 was interesting because some of the early games from of that year he played( he didn't play after that year ) don't name him in reports.

Also Horrie Quinton from Geelong on 1900 is said to have played 1 game. Is there any report that lists him as playing or having been dropped.

 

[35Daicos]

I was just doing some random checking.

Also Horrie Quinton from Geelong on 1900 is said to have played 1 game. Is there any report that lists him as playing or having been dropped.

Regarding Quinton, he's not mentioned in the rd. 8 match report, or as an out for the rd. 9 game in either The Age, The Argus or The Australasian. The Geelong Advertiser does name him as an inclusion for the rd. 8 game vs. Carlton, Geelong had 7 players 'away' that week:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/150865577

It's mentioned ^ that Quinton (along with 2 others) played with the (Geelong) College team. Quinton, Strickland, Collocott and Gatehouse seem to have played for the college the day before the VFL game!:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/150865474

The Herald named Quinton as being in the team (18 named) the day before the rd. 8 game:-
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=19000622&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Bonus bits:- Strickland had a brother (David) who played just one game for St Kilda (in 1900), but won the Stawell Gift that year, and (seemingly) passed on the speed gene to daughter Shirley (Strickland) who became one of the country's finest ever athletes. The unfortunate Quinton died in 1912, aged just 34.

 

[the croucher]

I was just doing some random checking.

Arthur Melsey from Geelong from 1903 was interesting because some of the early games from of that year he played( he didn't play after that year ) don't name him in reports.

Also Horrie Quinton from Geelong on 1900 is said to have played 1 game. Is there any report that lists him as playing or having been dropped.

Yes, he is listed in The Herald team list as part of match report published in final edition of that Saturday's paper:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=LeU7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1012,22648787