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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
- Thread starter Supermercado
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I'm just transcribing an interview I did with Gerald Tanner (RFC 1941, 1 game). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Tanner
He tells me his brother died in New Guinea aged 22 off scrub thyphus.
I didn't get his brother's name (and his family I cant contact the moment).
Is he on an ancestry tree at all?
Is it possible his brother was "Leslie Thomas Tanner", who died in new Guinea - Dec 1943 (late of North Sydney)? Aged 21.
He tells me his brother died in New Guinea aged 22 off scrub thyphus.
I didn't get his brother's name (and his family I cant contact the moment).
Is he on an ancestry tree at all?
Is it possible his brother was "Leslie Thomas Tanner", who died in new Guinea - Dec 1943 (late of North Sydney)? Aged 21.
I think this will be him:
Lance Corporal Xavier Aloysius Tanner | Australian War Memorial (awm.gov.au)
Leslie Thomas Tanner died of wounds.
Gerald is in a photo here BTW: 05 Sep 1945 - WODONGA FOOTBALL TEAM - Trove (nla.gov.au)
Gerald Thomas Tanner is the full name.
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Ah yes thank you Daics. The Xavier name would carry on with Gerald's son.
Ah, that Xavier Tanner!
This is certainly nothing major, but I'm curious as to why there's a discrepancy, and wondering who is correct! The AFL Season Guide lists St Kilda's Allan Murray as having scored a goal with his first ever kick, which came in his second career game, after he was kickless on debut (which was with Port Adelaide).
AustralianFootball.com agrees with this: Australian Football - Allan Murray
AFL Tables credits him with one kick in his debut game:
The Footy Works program has the same thing:
AustralianFootball.com agrees with this: Australian Football - Allan Murray
AFL Tables credits him with one kick in his debut game:
The Footy Works program has the same thing:
- Moderator
- #2,707
The AFL website of the day credits him with 1 kick as well
Good one! Thanks for that. That may well settle the issue! It's one of a few things I'll raise in the email I send to Michael Lovett (Season Guide editor) shortly. Another is that they've got Don Benson (Richmond) as the 4th oldest living player. He died in 2019, and they even had his name on the obituaries page in last year's book!!
Edit: AFL Tables have the same number of kicks (and disposals) for the Port players as what the AFL website had. Australianfootball.com have Josh Carr and Stuart Dew with one more kick, and one less for Roger James and Allan Murray.
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RedmanWasHere
Rarely in kitchens at parties.
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I have a copy of Inside Football for R20 2002 which reviewed R19 at home.
I’ll report back with my findings when I get home.
I’ll report back with my findings when I get home.
RedmanWasHere
Rarely in kitchens at parties.
- Aug 23, 2010
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- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Exers, Gryffindor, Rich+Ess AFLW, Tassie
Thanks a lot for doing that. So no kicks in that first game according to Inside Football (he wasn't meant to have scored a goal on debut, he goaled with his first kick in his second game). I wonder who has it right?!
RedmanWasHere
Rarely in kitchens at parties.
- Aug 23, 2010
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- 29,534
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- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Exers, Gryffindor, Rich+Ess AFLW, Tassie
- Jul 26, 2014
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Dick Molloy (Ess/NM) has DOB 15 Oct 1918 in all football sources I can see
This matches what is in his WWII service record but does not match his gravestone which has 14 Oct 1918
NSW BDM records confirm that 14 Oct 1918 is the correct date (born in Barellan, NSW)
Summary: Change date of birth for Dick Molloy from 15 Oct 1918 to 14 Oct 1918
This matches what is in his WWII service record but does not match his gravestone which has 14 Oct 1918
NSW BDM records confirm that 14 Oct 1918 is the correct date (born in Barellan, NSW)
Summary: Change date of birth for Dick Molloy from 15 Oct 1918 to 14 Oct 1918
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George Moloney (Claremont/Geelong) - member of Australian Football HoF - has DOD 5 Jan 1983 in all football sources I can see
Cemetery records confirm that actual DOD was 3 Jan 1983
Summary: Change recorded date of death for George Moloney from 5 Jan 1983 to 3 Jan 1983
Cemetery records confirm that actual DOD was 3 Jan 1983
Summary: Change recorded date of death for George Moloney from 5 Jan 1983 to 3 Jan 1983
Hey all.
FYI, I have started a new thread (cause I couldn't see one before), where we can dump all those 'best teams', 'best players' lists etc that newspapers etc published over the centuries. It will make it easier for us if we need to refer to things
The thread is on the History board. https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...best-teams-lists-players-of-a-season.1264713/
FYI, I have started a new thread (cause I couldn't see one before), where we can dump all those 'best teams', 'best players' lists etc that newspapers etc published over the centuries. It will make it easier for us if we need to refer to things
The thread is on the History board. https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...best-teams-lists-players-of-a-season.1264713/
- Jul 26, 2014
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Jock Morison (Collingwood) - has DOB 5 Dec 1915 in all football sources I can see
Both gravestone and Vic BDM (registered as Jno Morrison - Vic 1914/ 35290) confirm that actual DOB was 5 Dec 1914 - its hard to understand how this one was recorded incorrectly.... maybe they just relied on his WWII service record which has 1915 but wrong year of birth is common in service records
Summary: Change recorded date of birth for Jock Morison from 5 Dec 1915 to 5 Dec 1914
Both gravestone and Vic BDM (registered as Jno Morrison - Vic 1914/ 35290) confirm that actual DOB was 5 Dec 1914 - its hard to understand how this one was recorded incorrectly.... maybe they just relied on his WWII service record which has 1915 but wrong year of birth is common in service records
Summary: Change recorded date of birth for Jock Morison from 5 Dec 1915 to 5 Dec 1914
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Arthur Morley is credited as playing 5 games for North Melbourne in 1930-31 and served in Army in WWII.
From published DOB/DOD he can be identified as
Full name: Arthur Frederick Morley
Date of birth: 17 January 1908
Place of birth: North Fremantle, Western Australia
Date of death: 14 December 1977
Place of death: Glen Iris, Victoria
However, Arthur Frederick Morley seems to have lived in Western Australia until about 1960 (he is reported as getting traffic fines in Perth in 1930 and 1932) and I can see no evidence of him being in Victoria before 1960. Also when looking at Trove all references I can see to the footballer are to a W. “Bill” Morley - so it seems likely we have a mis-identified player here.
“Bill Morley” from South Districts is stated as being in the North Melbourne side in Sept 1930 – the one game he is credited with in 1930
Morley started with S.M. District team in 1930 – described as a first year player here
Won Most improved player in 1930 season
Seemingly incorrectly described as being from West Melbourne (given earlier refs) in early 1931 - South Districts still claiming him as one of theirs in May 1931 in this article
Then W. Morley moved to Prahran in 1932 - see VFA Project playing record
Then in 1933 W. Morley moved to West Melbourne in the Sub-District Association
My guess is we are looking for a William Morley, born about 1910 whose family were somewhere around South Melbourne in 1930 - but I haven't found a good candidate yet. Any identification help would be greatly appreciated.... and I know some of you love a good research project (Alternatively some evidence the current record is correct would set me straight)
From published DOB/DOD he can be identified as
Full name: Arthur Frederick Morley
Date of birth: 17 January 1908
Place of birth: North Fremantle, Western Australia
Date of death: 14 December 1977
Place of death: Glen Iris, Victoria
However, Arthur Frederick Morley seems to have lived in Western Australia until about 1960 (he is reported as getting traffic fines in Perth in 1930 and 1932) and I can see no evidence of him being in Victoria before 1960. Also when looking at Trove all references I can see to the footballer are to a W. “Bill” Morley - so it seems likely we have a mis-identified player here.
“Bill Morley” from South Districts is stated as being in the North Melbourne side in Sept 1930 – the one game he is credited with in 1930
Morley started with S.M. District team in 1930 – described as a first year player here
Won Most improved player in 1930 season
Seemingly incorrectly described as being from West Melbourne (given earlier refs) in early 1931 - South Districts still claiming him as one of theirs in May 1931 in this article
Then W. Morley moved to Prahran in 1932 - see VFA Project playing record
Then in 1933 W. Morley moved to West Melbourne in the Sub-District Association
My guess is we are looking for a William Morley, born about 1910 whose family were somewhere around South Melbourne in 1930 - but I haven't found a good candidate yet. Any identification help would be greatly appreciated.... and I know some of you love a good research project (Alternatively some evidence the current record is correct would set me straight)
Yes please.
If a post doesnt have the summary I'll most likely miss it for the spreadsheet
Perhaps it's a mistake (with the name), but they do call him Arthur Morley here, and have him as coming from West Melbourne: 28 Mar 1931 - School Teachers Should Find Permanent Places in Side - Trove (nla.gov.au)Arthur Morley is credited as playing 5 games for North Melbourne in 1930-31 and served in Army in WWII.
From published DOB/DOD he can be identified as
Full name: Arthur Frederick Morley
Date of birth: 17 January 1908
Place of birth: North Fremantle, Western Australia
Date of death: 14 December 1977
Place of death: Glen Iris, Victoria
However, Arthur Frederick Morley seems to have lived in Western Australia until about 1960 (he is reported as getting traffic fines in Perth in 1930 and 1932) and I can see no evidence of him being in Victoria before 1960. Also when looking at Trove all references I can see to the footballer are to a W. “Bill” Morley - so it seems likely we have a mis-identified player here.
“Bill Morley” from South Districts is stated as being in the North Melbourne side in Sept 1930 – the one game he is credited with in 1930
Morley started with S.M. District team in 1930 – described as a first year player here
Won Most improved player in 1930 season
Seemingly incorrectly described as being from West Melbourne (given earlier refs) in early 1931 - South Districts still claiming him as one of theirs in May 1931 in this article
Then W. Morley moved to Prahran in 1932 - see VFA Project playing record
Then in 1933 W. Morley moved to West Melbourne in the Sub-District Association
My guess is we are looking for a William Morley, born about 1910 whose family were somewhere around South Melbourne in 1930 - but I haven't found a good candidate yet. Any identification help would be greatly appreciated.... and I know some of you love a good research project (Alternatively some evidence the current record is correct would set me straight)
That does seem to go with this (link you posted):
There's no doubt from what I've seen (and what you posted) that he did play for South Melbourne Districts before playing for North Melbourne.
He was still playing for West Melbourne a few years later:
He was named captain in 1938: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205917719
Still playing for them in 1940, it seems:
I'm still looking but not making any great progress with the actual name! There's a William Arthur Morley living at Melbourne West in 1931. It might be a bit too convenient if that was his name!
I'm not sure whether this is the same chap or not, but he was living in Melbourne when he enlisted. He's probably too old to have been the West Melbourne player who was still playing in 1941.
There's also a couple of William Morley's living at Albert Park in 1931:
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Just to confirm I had my pal with a CD login to check and see what they have down as the final stats for the game and indeed Murray only had 1 handball.
Summary: AFLTables/Footy Works incorrect and needs updating, AF correct.
I'll leave it for WhiteHartLane23 as it was his find.
So… I’ve found what looks like a discrepancy, but I guess it might actually be the result of a previous correction. I’ll just drop it here and let you aficionados have a look.
Round 17 1938, Hawthorn v South Melb, 20/8/38.
Hawthorn are named on the Friday as follows:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205132133/19252014#
However it appears Wellington never made it into the side (maybe no clearance?), and was replaced in the starting 18 by Feltscheer, who was originally 19th man. However I haven’t found any specific mention of this in ensuing papers, apart from the line-up given in the Herald.
One of Neil Allison or Joe Lyons became 19th man.
It would appear that official records (AFL tables etc) say it was Allison. And he kicked a goal.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1938/101619380820.html
But according to The Herald on the day of the game it was Lyons.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243458197/26422805
The Age on the Monday following the game also says it was Lyons, and credits him with a goal:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205126471/19252091
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205126522/19252091
The Argus however doesn’t credit Lyons with a goal. They give an extra one to Alec Albiston.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12475884/591797
So, why do official records say Allison played (and goalled)? There must be some reason – is it the result of a correction made some time ago after evidence was found showing Allison played, not Lyons? I guess my question is has this been raised before, or is it worth raising now?
FWIW Lyons was also named as 19th man the following week in Rnd18 against Essendon. Official records show that as being his single career game.
Round 17 1938, Hawthorn v South Melb, 20/8/38.
Hawthorn are named on the Friday as follows:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205132133/19252014#
However it appears Wellington never made it into the side (maybe no clearance?), and was replaced in the starting 18 by Feltscheer, who was originally 19th man. However I haven’t found any specific mention of this in ensuing papers, apart from the line-up given in the Herald.
One of Neil Allison or Joe Lyons became 19th man.
It would appear that official records (AFL tables etc) say it was Allison. And he kicked a goal.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1938/101619380820.html
But according to The Herald on the day of the game it was Lyons.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243458197/26422805
The Age on the Monday following the game also says it was Lyons, and credits him with a goal:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205126471/19252091
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205126522/19252091
The Argus however doesn’t credit Lyons with a goal. They give an extra one to Alec Albiston.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12475884/591797
So, why do official records say Allison played (and goalled)? There must be some reason – is it the result of a correction made some time ago after evidence was found showing Allison played, not Lyons? I guess my question is has this been raised before, or is it worth raising now?
FWIW Lyons was also named as 19th man the following week in Rnd18 against Essendon. Official records show that as being his single career game.
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