Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

But did Lyons or Allison move in to the 19?

Sorry mate, missed that important bit! This has Lyons playing in the Seconds on the same day: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205126473

 

[stemline]

Ah ha! Good get.

FWIW, the Sporting Globe also had Lyons playing in the main game.

Mayblooms Return To Best Form - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 20 Aug 1938

In a dull and uninteresting game, Hawthorn showed good race to hold control during the game at the Glenferrie oval. The ...

trove.nla.gov.au

I thought the official records must have reason for giving it to Allison, not Lyons. Perhaps the Seconds game is that reason.

 

[35Daicos]

Ah ha! Good get.

FWIW, the Sporting Globe also had Lyons playing in the main game.

Mayblooms Return To Best Form - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 20 Aug 1938

In a dull and uninteresting game, Hawthorn showed good race to hold control during the game at the Glenferrie oval. The ...

trove.nla.gov.au

View attachment 1114708

I thought the official records must have reason for giving it to Allison, not Lyons. Perhaps the Seconds game is that reason.

I'm (still) not sure at all of what is correct, and I'd say it needs further looking into!

 

[35Daicos]

Ah ha! Good get.

FWIW, the Sporting Globe also had Lyons playing in the main game.

Mayblooms Return To Best Form - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 20 Aug 1938

In a dull and uninteresting game, Hawthorn showed good race to hold control during the game at the Glenferrie oval. The ...

trove.nla.gov.au

View attachment 1114708

I thought the official records must have reason for giving it to Allison, not Lyons. Perhaps the Seconds game is that reason.

The Sporting Globe also gives Lyons a goal (and 2 to A. Albiston):


This isn't good, however!:


The same paper also names Lyons as having played in the seconds:


The Football Record from the following week doesn't shed any light on the issue. Perhaps Lyons ended up playing in both the seconds and the seniors after Wellington wasn't able to play? Lyons gets mentioned as having played (seniors) more than Allison does, and it's got to be quite likely that he did play, but convincing the AFL chaps to change it and replace Allison with Lyons doesn't seem too likely!

 

[stemline]

Thanks mate. That Argus report is the first I've seen that says Allison played - however that's enough for me given enough of them say Lyons played in the Seconds, which as far as I can make out was played across town at Lake Oval at the same time as the Seniors played at Glenferrie.

I also think some of the papers back then (the Sporting Globe and the Herald Sun especially) used the same source, as their reports back then are almost identical. Both those papers had to rush to print after the game also.

Perhaps the club clarified with the VFL that it was Allison, hence official records went that way. Unless further evidence presents, I doubt it's worth pursuing. Thanks again for looking into it.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Bill Morrow (Melbourne / Prahran) has recorded date death as 9 October 2002

Cemetery records show that this was the date of cremation and date of death was 4 October 2002

note: this record has has DOB as 5 Oct 1927 rather than 5 Oct 1928 but I can't find anything else to corroborate this - although change of death date would reduce age at death by 1 year...

Summary: Change recorded date of death for Bill Morrow from 9 October 2002 to 4 October 2002

 

[stemline]

Hey WhiteHartLane23 will you do a Ray/Russell Whelan summary?

 

[rbartlett]

Hi.
Stephen Rodgers has reviewed our 2020 changes - majority accepted, some not.
Ill update the spreadsheet this week with the outcomes.

Rodgers advised the next review of the spreadsheet won't be til 2022.
In the meantime, I'll triage the research between "minor" and "major" changes and anything we deem significantly importantly I will make him aware, and all minor changes will be addressed during 2022.

 

[rbartlett]

Okay. Spreadsheet updated. AFL TABLES/WIKIPEDIA/AUST FOOT/BLUESEUM/DEMONWIKI will need to make respective changes

Spreadsheet can be viewed here, as well as back on Post 1 (make sure you go to 2020 changes tab at the bottom)

AFL has accepted all the recommended changes EXCEPT FOR :


entry 69 + 70: Frank Diver Dunne DOB, and the Frank Dunne/Ernie Dunne changes will not be changed. Long story short old R.H Campbell sheet and AFL Clearance book shows F.C Dunne as player.

For any disputes relating to that, best to DM me, rather than we have a discussion directly in this thread.


Please also note important AFL tidbits as listed in column AFL RESPONSE relating to
entry 41: J.L. Lou Jackson
entry 43 : Jim Morton
entry 62: Fred Morgan
entry 63 Jack Wood


ACTION ITEM: Whoever is our Wikipedia corrector, will need to make changes particularly to those above 4 entries, and obviously as well as the other iteams on the list. I have forgotten who our Wikipedia correct is.
*Paul* the croucher WhiteHartLane23 35Daicos stemline Oliver Gigacz RedmanWasHere Supermercado ThePope and anyone else I have forgtten

 

[RedmanWasHere]

I can do tiny edits on Wikipedia but I'm ultimately not good enough for the big guns.

 

[Oliver G]

Okay. Spreadsheet updated. AFL TABLES/WIKIPEDIA/AUST FOOT/BLUESEUM/DEMONWIKI will need to make respective changes

Spreadsheet can be viewed here, as well as back on Post 1 (make sure you go to 2020 changes tab at the bottom)

AFL has accepted all the recommended changes EXCEPT FOR :

entry 25: Rd 1931 Stkilda players changes. That will not be changed, as StK registry book disagrees
entry 69 + 70: Frank Diver Dunne DOB, and the Frank Dunne/Ernie Dunne changes will not be changed. Long story short old R.H Campbell sheet and AFL Clearance book shows F.C Dunne as player.

For any disputes relating to that, best to DM me, rather than we have a discussion directly in this thread.


Please also note important AFL tidbits as listed in column AFL RESPONSE relating to
entry 41: J.L. Lou Jackson
entry 43 : Jim Morton
entry 62: Fred Morgan
entry 63 Jack Wood


ACTION ITEM: Whoever is our Wikipedia corrector, will need to make changes particularly to those above 4 entries, and obviously as well as the other iteams on the list. I have forgotten who our Wikipedia correct is.
*Paul* the croucher WhiteHartLane23 35Daicos stemline Oliver Gigacz RedmanWasHere Supermercado ThePope and anyone else I have forgtten

Thanks Rhett for sorting it all out, I've just updated AF with all the necessary changes. I've sent you a DM with enquiries regarding 2 items.

Oliver

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Hey WhiteHartLane23 will you do a Ray/Russell Whelan summary?

Ray Whelan is credited with one game for Hawthorn in 1945 - however he was playing for Sturt on that day so cannot be the player

Correct identification of the player is
Name: Russell Whelan, son of Thomas Whelan and Mary Maud Dory Blackshaw
Date of birth: 2 December 1914 (note: one of his WWII records has 1 December 1914)
Place of birth: Balwyn, Victoria
Date of death: 21 August 1981 (aged 67)
Place of death: Newcastle, New South Wales (was living in Forster)

Summary: Replace Ray Whelan with Russell Whelan in official records

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Brian Mulvihill (West Torrens, Woodville, North Melbourne) has DOB 17 November 1947 in official records

He was born Brian David Mulvihill in the U.K. and his family emigrated in 1956.
Emigration record shows his date of birth was actually 1946:

and English Civil Registration Birth Index (on Ancestry) also shows 1946 - extract from Q4 1946


Summary: Change DOB for Brian Mulvihill from 17 November 1947 to 17 November 1946
note: Oliver Gigacz - australianfootball.com is missing date of death as well ( 8 July 2013 )

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jack Muller played for Geelong in 1945-46 and is identified as having DOB 27 December 1920 and DOD 15 October 2002.

Both of these dates are incorrect.
Muller was the younger brother of Angus (Geelong/Fitzroy) and Nick (Geelong) - as per this article - Col H's spreadsheet of VFL/AFL families also reflects this
Their parents were Theodore Frederick Muller and Neilia Dickson.

BDM shows birth registered in 1920 - but low reg. number indicates early in the year

World War II enlistment record shows DOB as 27 December 1919


He later moved to Brisbane and died there in 1977 - currently recorded date of death is completely incorrect
Queensland BDM record shows


Find a Grave record confirms both date of birth and date of death

Summary: Update Jack Muller's record to reflect DOB DOB 27 December 1919 and DOD 26 December 1977

 

[ThePope]

Col H's spreadsheet of VFL/AFL families also reflects this

Can this be shared? Are Gary and Dale Holmes on that spreadsheet?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Danny Murnane (St Kilda/Moorabbin) has DOB 25 March 1926 at AFL Tables and australianfootball.com
ThePope updated wikipedia based on AFL Season Guide to 23 March 1926

Cemetery record has 23 March 1925 as DOB and this is corroborated by this article in 1933 where an 8 year old Danny wrote in to The Weekly Times and multiple family trees on Ancestry.

His full name was Daniel William Ewart Murnane

Summary: Update DOB for Danny Murnane to 23 March 1925

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Can this be shared? Are Gary and Dale Holmes on that spreadsheet?

Have sent it to you via message.... but the answer is no - they are not on the list

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Vic Nankervis (Geelong, Footscray, St Kilda, South Melbourne) has DOD 5 Oct 1986 in wiki, australianfootball.com, Harder Than Football etc
However both Vic BDM and his grave show death as 5 Oct 1985

Summary: Update DOD for Vic Nankervis to 5 October 1985

 

[the croucher]

More trouble with the early VFL records, I fear. Online listings for the Carlton players in the inaugural VFL season of 1897 have a Jack Frost identified with DOB 29 Dec 1870 and DOD 8 Jul 1935. Ancestry family trees indicate these are the life span dates for a Robert William Frost, son of Charles and Sarah (nee Fisk).
His birth was registered in the “Egli” [not sure what that stands for] district of Victoria (#13/1871)

There are three older siblings born in Vic, but his five younger siblings are born in NSW, a number of births and later deaths of family members occurring in or near Parkes, NSW.

RW marries Ida Florence Ward on 15 March 1899, in the Parkes reg district, and a large family arrives over the years, all being born in that town. RW Frost died in Parkes district on 8 July 1935.

All that I’ve seen so far suggests that at a very young age RW Frost moved to country NSW with his family and spent most if not all of his remaining life in or near the Parkes district.

Therefore, in my opinion, the Frost who plays for Carlton in 1897 is an entirely different (and as yet unidentified) person. Would be interested in thoughts of others about this matter.

 

[GreyCrow]

More trouble with the early VFL records, I fear. Online listings for the Carlton players in the inaugural VFL season of 1897 have a Jack Frost identified with DOB 29 Dec 1870 and DOD 8 Jul 1935. Ancestry family trees indicate these are the life span dates for a Robert William Frost, son of Charles and Sarah (nee Fisk).
His birth was registered in the “Egli” [not sure what that stands for] district of Victoria (#13/1871)

There are three older siblings born in Vic, but his five younger siblings are born in NSW, a number of births and later deaths of family members occurring in or near Parkes, NSW.

RW marries Ida Florence Ward on 15 March 1899, in the Parkes reg district, and a large family arrives over the years, all being born in that town. RW Frost died in Parkes district on 8 July 1935.

All that I’ve seen so far suggests that at a very young age RW Frost moved to country NSW with his family and spent most if not all of his remaining life in or near the Parkes district.

Therefore, in my opinion, the Frost who plays for Carlton in 1897 is an entirely different (and as yet unidentified) person. Would be interested in thoughts of others about this matter.

Egli is East of Amherst

Central Goldfields

 

[GreyCrow]

More trouble with the early VFL records, I fear. Online listings for the Carlton players in the inaugural VFL season of 1897 have a Jack Frost identified with DOB 29 Dec 1870 and DOD 8 Jul 1935. Ancestry family trees indicate these are the life span dates for a Robert William Frost, son of Charles and Sarah (nee Fisk).
His birth was registered in the “Egli” [not sure what that stands for] district of Victoria (#13/1871)

There are three older siblings born in Vic, but his five younger siblings are born in NSW, a number of births and later deaths of family members occurring in or near Parkes, NSW.

RW marries Ida Florence Ward on 15 March 1899, in the Parkes reg district, and a large family arrives over the years, all being born in that town. RW Frost died in Parkes district on 8 July 1935.

All that I’ve seen so far suggests that at a very young age RW Frost moved to country NSW with his family and spent most if not all of his remaining life in or near the Parkes district.

Therefore, in my opinion, the Frost who plays for Carlton in 1897 is an entirely different (and as yet unidentified) person. Would be interested in thoughts of others about this matter.

John Thomas Frost 1872-1943 born Malvern

Plays cricket for Malvern in early 1897

 

[GreyCrow]

This gets us closer to Frost


North Williamstown have done some
mighty deeds in the past, and they intend
to have another bold bid for the premiership,
Maynard, the best rover they ever had ;
Ryan, a good back, and Frost will be the
Fix this textmissing men. The latter goes to Carlton - (Frost)

FOOTBALL. - THE COMING SEASON. A LOOK AHEAD. JUNIOR JOTTINGS. CHANGES AND CHANGES. THE PERSONNEL OF THE TEAMS. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 25 Apr 1894

With the juniors all bustle and confusion. Never in the history of the game has so much interest been taken in the doings of the younger clubs. In every quarter ...

nla.gov.au

This article mentions Dick Frost - and strongly implies it is the same man

SPORTING NEWS. - FOOTBALL. - Williamstown Chronicle (Vic. : 1856 - 1954) - 26 May 1894

Dark blue Victors. An unexpected defeat by Carlton. A splendid day for the national game. Williamstown's bad luck again appears. ...

nla.gov.au

Yet there is no Richard or Dick in the BDM from 1867-1877

 

[35Daicos]

^ This is what Blueseum has to say about him: Blueseum - History of the Carlton Football Club | Jack Frost

===========================================================================

Pennings' book has the player as R. Frost.

 

[rbartlett]

Matthew Wall, kicked a goal with his first kick, in Rd 1 1980.
He doesn't seem to be on the AFL's list.
The Age clearly notes it (and Wall himself wrote about it a letter to the club Museum many years ago which I have unearthed)

 

[the croucher]

Matthew Wall, kicked a goal with his first kick, in Rd 1 1980.
He doesn't seem to be on the AFL's list.
The Age clearly notes it (and Wall himself wrote about it a letter to the club Museum many years ago which I have unearthed)
View attachment 1131122

Good find, Rhett ! I imagine a check of Herald and Sporting Globe match reports via m/film at SLV would confirm.