Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[the croucher]

More an alert than error noted at the moment: William Louther Armstrong has DOD generally listed as 12 March 1968.

The Melbourne cemeteries website has his DOD as 13 March 1968. I checked The Age but couldn't see any death notice.

Deceased - William Louther Armstrong (GMCT)

www.gmct.com.au

 

[the croucher]

Another University player...this one does need research. Most "official" sites have Ernie Atkins DOD as 14 September 1972,
but as you can see it looks like DOD should be 19 September 1972:

The Age - Google News Archive Search

news.google.com

 

[the croucher]

Frank Dossetor (University) - Wikipedia page has correct DOB (16 Dec 1885) but AF and AFL Tables show 11 Dec 1885, perhaps AFL House needs checking too.

Libraries Tasmania - Image 63

stors.tas.gov.au

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Bill Noonan also played for Collingwood & Oakleigh and is identified as having DOB 28 Feb 1918 in all sources I can see.

This date of birth is incorrect.

Both Vic BDM (ref 3226 / 1917) and his WWII service record show DOB was 28 Feb 1917

Summary: Update date of birth for Bill Noonan (Coll) from 28 Feb 1918 to 28 Feb 1917

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another University player...this one does need research. Most "official" sites have Ernie Atkins DOD as 14 September 1972,
but as you can see it looks like DOD should be 19 September 1972:

The Age - Google News Archive Search

news.google.com

He was cremated at Springvale on 21 September 1972 - usually this is 2-3 days after death so supports a 19 September 1972 date

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

More an alert than error noted at the moment: William Louther Armstrong has DOD generally listed as 12 March 1968.

The Melbourne cemeteries website has his DOD as 13 March 1968. I checked The Age but couldn't see any death notice.

Deceased - William Louther Armstrong (GMCT)

www.gmct.com.au

Find a Grave has a picture of his gravesite which also shows 13 March 1968

 

[the croucher]

<snip>

Bill Noonan also played for Collingwood & Oakleigh and is identified as having DOB 28 Feb 1918 in all sources I can see.

This date of birth is incorrect.

Both Vic BDM (ref 3226 / 1917) and his WWII service record show DOB was 28 Feb 1917

Summary: Update date of birth for Bill Noonan (Coll) from 28 Feb 1918 to 28 Feb 1917

Noonan's Wikipedia page has been updated to show 1917.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jim Oakes played four games for Hawthorn in 1936.

There is very little in VFL match reports or the Football Record that definitively identifies the VFL player but current records have:

Name: James Oakes (as per Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers)
Date of birth 10 June 1914
Date of death 3 June 1988 (aged 73)

These details appear to be incorrect.

Jim Oakes first appears in Trove in 1931 playing for Clayton
In 1934 he was reported as being captain of Springvale and winner of B&F award 3 years running.
Oakes was reported as playing with Hawthorn reserves in 1935 and appearing more frequently in best players in 1936
Plays in seniors all four Saturdays in August 1936, scoring a goal v SM
Oakes returned to playing with Springvale in 1937
1938: “Mr J. Oakes of Bevan avenue, is suffering from a severely strained ankle, received when playing football for Springvale”
1952 Oakes was still playing, with Mulgrave

Electoral roll from 1937 show Oakes family living at Bevan avenue, Clayton


Parents were Frederick Henry Oakes (1890-1981) and Zaidee Stella Craven (1890-1976) and they had three sons:

• Leopold Alfred Oakes (1912 – 1996) m Eliza Mary Kirk in 1942
• Henry Auger (1913-1991) m Marie May Roach in 1933
• John Ashton (1917-1990)

John is too young to be the VFL player and family trees on Ancestry show that Leopold Alfred was known as “Jim”. Exact date of birth unknown but based on 1938 article and Ancestry trees, the player was

Name: Leopold Alfred Oakes
Date of birth: 1912
Place of birth: Bealiba, Victoria
Date of death: 20 Jun 1996 (from Ancestry)
Place of death: Brisbane, Queensland

 

[35Daicos]

Jim Oakes played four games for Hawthorn in 1936.

There is very little in VFL match reports or the Football Record that definitively identifies the VFL player but current records have:

Name: James Oakes (as per Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers)
Date of birth 10 June 1914
Date of death 3 June 1988 (aged 73)

These details appear to be incorrect.

Jim Oakes first appears in Trove in 1931 playing for Clayton
In 1934 he was reported as being captain of Springvale and winner of B&F award 3 years running.
Oakes was reported as playing with Hawthorn reserves in 1935 and appearing more frequently in best players in 1936
Plays in seniors all four Saturdays in August 1936, scoring a goal v SM
Oakes returned to playing with Springvale in 1937
1938: “Mr J. Oakes of Bevan avenue, is suffering from a severely strained ankle, received when playing football for Springvale”
1952 Oakes was still playing, with Mulgrave

Electoral roll from 1937 show Oakes family living at Bevan avenue, Clayton
View attachment 1150269

Parents were Frederick Henry Oakes (1890-1981) and Zaidee Stella Craven (1890-1976) and they had three sons:

• Leopold Alfred Oakes (1912 – 1996) m Eliza Mary Kirk in 1942
• Henry Auger (1913-1991) m Marie May Roach in 1933
• John Ashton (1917-1990)

John is too young to be the VFL player and family trees on Ancestry show that Leopold Alfred was known as “Jim”. Exact date of birth unknown but based on 1938 article and Ancestry trees, the player was

Name: Leopold Alfred Oakes
Date of birth: 1912
Place of birth: Bealiba, Victoria
Date of death: 20 Jun 1996 (from Ancestry)
Place of death: Brisbane, Queensland

From an Ancestry tree:



J. Oakes: Hawthorn Senior Team 1936 (HM 02) | Boyles Football Photos

Sure looks like the same chap to me!

 

[the croucher]

From an Ancestry tree:
View attachment 1150296
View attachment 1150311

J. Oakes: Hawthorn Senior Team 1936 (HM 02) | Boyles Football Photos
View attachment 1150298
Sure looks like the same chap to me!

Agreed...and also when you compare the Hawks Museum photo of '36 to one of a Jimmy Oakes (with Mulgrave) via Trove in '51


The Dandenong Journal, 4 July 1951: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222353353

 

[35Daicos]

Name: Leopold Alfred Oakes
Date of birth: 1912
Place of birth: Bealiba, Victoria
Date of death: 20 Jun 1996 (from Ancestry)
Place of death: Brisbane, Queensland

From Ryerson:

Looks like 16 June 1996 is much more likely.

 

[stemline]

Any luck finding actual DOB?

 

[the croucher]

Any luck finding actual DOB?

Cannot see a specific date listed on Ancestry trees, or at moment, any grave snapshot...

Using the Vic BDMs system though, certificates in same reg district as Oakes 1912 birth, and numbered just before and just after his, give WW2 nominal roll and Ancestry tree dates for Stanley Frankel 29 May 1912 and James Murphy 21 June 1912, so presume Oakes is DOB late May or early June.

The AFL might like to pay the $20.00 and get Oakes certificate to confirm exact DOB, but ...

 

[rbartlett]

Cannot see a specific date listed on Ancestry trees, or at moment, any grave snapshot...

Using the Vic BDMs system though, certificates in same reg district as Oakes 1912 birth, and numbered just before and just after his, give WW2 nominal roll and Ancestry tree dates for Stanley Frankel 29 May 1912 and James Murphy 21 June 1912, so presume Oakes is DOB late May or early June.

The AFL might like to pay the $20.00 and get Oakes certificate to confirm exact DOB, but ...

The AFL has a contact at BDM where they can obtain the exact DOB.
So the summary of this change is ....?

 

[the croucher]

The AFL has a contact at BDM where they can obtain the exact DOB.
So the summary of this change is ....?

Well good, perhaps they could check that out then and get exact date to complete update as per summary.

Summary: remove James Oakes (1914-1988) and replace with Leopold Alfred "Jim" Oakes (DOB May or June 1912 [in/near Bealiba, Victoria] - DOD 16 June 1996 [in/near Brisbane, Queensland])

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Max Oates has date of birth 19 August 1942 in football records
However his death notices from family show DOB 19 April 1942 - means he was actually 18 when he played, rather than his entire VFL career being as a 17 year old!

Summary: Change date of birth for Max Oates from 19 August 1942 to 19 April 1942

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jack O'Connell played for Williamstown & South Melbourne in the early 1920s

This article and BDM records identify him as John Kerion O'Connell born Winchelsea to John Kerion O'Connell, Sr. and Margaret Anne Hannon
Currently australianfooball.com & wikipedia (and hence probably AFL) have his death as 24 Aug 1975

A John William O'Connell did die on 24 August 1975, but death notices from 1975 show actual date of death of the footballer was 20 May 1975

Summary: Change date of death for Jack O'Connell from 24 August 1975 to 20 May 1975

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jim O’Meara played for East Perth, Railways (Kalgoorlie), South Melbourne and Fitzroy.

Published sources have a variety of names for him:

• Encyclopedia has him as D. J. “Brum” O’Meara b 16 Sept 1908
• AFL Tables has Jim O’Meara b 16 Sept 1908
• Australianfootball.com has him as John James O’Meara b 16 Sept 1908, d 7 Nov 1985
• WAFL Footy Facts has John James (Brum) O’Meara
• Wikipedia has Jim O’Meara b 16 Sept 1908, d 7 Nov 1985
• Harder Than Football has him as Daniel Joseph “Brum” O’Meara b 16 Sept 1908

On Trove I could not find a single reference to the player as Jim O’Meara – mostly he is referred to as Brum but several times as Joe O’Meara - see 1, 2, 3

He obtained a permit to Sth Melb in the name of Joseph O’Meara

This article gives significant biographical background and names him as Joseph (“Brum”) O’Meara and confirms his birthday as 16 Sep 1908.

War service record names him as Daniel Joseph O’Meara b 16 Sept 1908 in Perth

Find a Grave shows Daniel Joseph O’Meara as passing away in Adelaide on 7 Nov 1985

Ancestry records show he was the son of Patrick O’Meara and Katherine Kenny and he married Elizabeth Mona Baker in Victoria in 1942 (despite the claim in this article – they clearly arrived from W.A. together in 1933 and lived together before this).

WA BDM records, however, show the birth of Daniel J O’Meara was registered in Perth in 1907. It appears that Joe O’Meara was a year older than claimed in either the news article above or his war service record.

Summary: Update AFL Tables, australianfootball.com, wikipedia to show player as Joe O’Meara (I suspect that AFL have the correct identity for this player given DOB/DOD but would be worth confirming) Change date of birth for Joe O’Meara from 16 Sep 1908 to 16 Sep 1907

 

[rbartlett]

Summary: Viewing footage of the 1988 Elimination Final, Jim Stynes wore Number 26 instead of his usual no. 11

 

[Connor7395]

Summary: Viewing footage of the 1988 Elimination Final, Jim Stynes wore Number 26 instead of his usual no. 11

Any particular reason why this happened? Looks like Jay Viney wore number 26 at the time but didn't get selected for the game. Maybe Stynes pulled a Barry Cable and left his normal jumper on the clothesline, so Northey tossed him Viney's jumper.

The Footy Record for the game has Stynes wearing number 11, so this may have been an eleventh hour issue.

Stynes wore number 11 in the semi final the following week.

 

[the croucher]

Another number issue: 1961, Rnd 6, Collingwood in match vs Carlton have couple of “double ups” listed on both AFL Tables and australianfootball.com firstly #6 is shown for both Brewer and Willett; and #36 is shown for both Carruthers and Mahon.

 

[Connor7395]

Another number issue: 1961, Rnd 6, Collingwood in match vs Carlton have couple of “double ups” listed on both AFL Tables and australianfootball.com firstly #6 is shown for both Brewer and Willett; and #36 is shown for both Carruthers and Mahon.

There's lots of double up and even rare triple ups that occur in the records. I've found that this stems mostly from mid-season trades, when players sometimes change their numbers when their usual number has already been taken. You can find these in the AFL Tables player stats by season, then sort by numbers for each team, and go through duplicates.

Example: Round 1, 1980, Footscray vs Fitzroy. Both Matt Johnson and Ian Morrison are recorded wearing number 8. Morrison wore number 8 for most of his career. Johnson likely wore number 41 (AFL Record 1980, Round 10, Commodore Cup teams, pg. 33). No Footscray player is recorded as wearing 41 in the seniors in 1980.

 

[Connor7395]

Another number issue: 1961, Rnd 6, Collingwood in match vs Carlton have couple of “double ups” listed on both AFL Tables and australianfootball.com firstly #6 is shown for both Brewer and Willett; and #36 is shown for both Carruthers and Mahon.

In your case, I went digging and found the Round 7 Record. Willett wore number 8 and Mahon wore number 42 (pg. 12). AFL Tables doesn't record any other player wearing those numbers for the Magpies in 1961. Willett's case make sense because he is recorded as wearing number 8 in his other two seasons as a Magpie, so I'm guessing it's a transcription error.

However, things get interesting because after Willett's two year absence, he is recorded as wearing number 8 in 1964, yet Mahon wore number 8 for the whole season! So yet again, I went digging and found the Round 2 (1964) Record, which lists Willett as number 6 and Mahon as number 8.

And that's where the problem is solved. Willett wore number 6 in 1961 and number 8 in 1964, but AFL Tables records them the wrong way around.

 

[stemline]

Summary: Viewing footage of the 1988 Elimination Final, Jim Stynes wore Number 26 instead of his usual no. 11

Reckon he changed into long sleaves at some point in the first qtr. 42 seconds into this video he can be spotted in 11.

 

[Connor7395]

Reckon he changed into long sleaves at some point in the first qtr. 42 seconds into this video he can be spotted in 11.

So I guess the rule is that since Stynes came out wearing 11 first, nothing should be changed? I remember in 2008 when Harry Taylor had to change twice against the Dees and ended up running out the match wearing the number 85, but the records consider him to have worn number 7.