Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[Harry Hook]

Just a query. I was doing a random check of 1897 players and came across the 1 match player for Collingwood apparently called Dick Hall whose only game was in round 6.

Are we sure his name was Dick Hall. There was a Dick Hall who did play in 1897 but he played for Williams town.

There are probably sources which establish his name as Dick but I could not find them.

 

[rbartlett]

Norman Turnbull according to official records played StKilda 1914, 1918-1920 then Richmond 1921-1923.
This article here mentions he has enlisted in WW1 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1585907.
Which would explain that gap from 1915-1918.
However, he's not listed in the AFL War book released a few years ago.
I'm unable to find his War Service record either.
And to add further confusion, there was an F. Turnbull at StKilda in 1915 AND 1918.
So a) Did Norm Turnbull actually enlist in War, or was it F Turnbull with a typo
b) If he did enlist - where is his War Service Record
c) If he didn't list, what did he do from 1915 - 1918.

This article in early 1917 says he played with as part of a Richmond Districts Junior side http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93809585 , which would mean he is back from the war by then, by why not back at StKilda. (He did grow up in Richmond)

This article in 1918 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93808076 says that Norman Turnbull's "football has improved tremendously in the last two or three seasons" which wouldn't make sense if he was fighting overseas.

 

[GreyCrow]

Norm or Norman Turnbull is difficult to pin down on news stories alone. Some stories, (just as today ) seem to stretch the definitions a bit

From what I can gather from Trove :
Norman Turnbull ex St Kilda ran a pool/snooker hall http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93808893
Norm/an Turnbull 'star of Richmond' turned his hand to horse racing and spent time in Sydney http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178112828
This picture in 1923 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184804503
This picture from 1928 establishes a Norm Turnbull as a horse trainer http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article183956898
Identified as a former Richmond player and Namera trainer ie above link in 1947 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205313999
This story then links the 2 clubs St Kilda and Richmond with horse racing and the snooker hall http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184798189 but it does not mention AIF service

This then lends argument to the above link about '' football improved tremendously'' as it also mentions his snooker hall. Yet he is still playing for St Kilda.

A genealogy site has this under Norman Albert Victor ( with contact details) http://www.library.turnbullclan.com/tca_genealogy/tca_all2-o/g0/p426.htm though I see it has a few mistakes. ( I think it is a one-name-study page)

Norman Albert Turnbull features in this news story http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article217969491 about missing compulsory drills in 1913. His excuse? He was in a convicted criminal ! http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199444863 This is the report of the robbery http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196253244 - interestingly the article states the 4 youths played billiards

Norman Henry Moirer Turnbull is the most likely to have served https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=305817 as his wifes death notice states 2nd AIF http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11981613 Norman was born 1899.

There is no BDM record for an 1894 birth nor a 1977 death for the wiki listed Norm Turnbull.

The F Turnbull story is repeated in an Army Football match reported here http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article88508820

Sorry for the confusion but I wanted to try and find different sources to gather a picture. The best I can feel is Norm Turnbull the horse trainer may well be Norman Albert and his juvenile record kept quiet

 

[the croucher]

Charlie Young (Melb) is recorded in all sources I can find as being born 7 December 1877 and dying on 31 March 1949.

A quick search on Ancestry gives:
NAME: Charles Herbert Lockyer Young
BIRTH: 7 Dec 1877 - Kew, Victoria, Australia

In early 1905 he is recorded as moving to Adelaide (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165440464)

...and on 22 Feb 1914 Charles Herbert Lockyer Young is recorded as dying at Glenelg (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204660440)

On 31 Mar 1949 Charles Herbert Young died at Five Dock in Sydney, NSW - this person was born on 17 Sep 1877 in NSW.

I think the current record has been based on a mis-identification of the death record (understandable given similar dates of birth)

Yes, I agree with that. CHL Young (7 Dec 1877 - 22 Feb 1914) is a different person from CH Young (17 Sep 1877 - 31 Mar 1949)

As GreyCrow pointed out the post after original ref to this matter, CHL married Elsie May Stubbs in 1907,
and she is referred to in his 1914 death notice:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204660440

I have found in online family tree refs that CH married Blanche E E Whitfield at Milson's Point NSW in January 1903,
and she is referred to in his 1949 death notice:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18109474

 

[GreyCrow]

Yes, I agree with that. CHL Young (7 Dec 1877 - 22 Feb 1914) is a different person from CH Young (17 Sep 1877 - 31 Mar 1949)

As GreyCrow pointed out the post after original ref to this matter, CHL married Elsie May Stubbs in 1907,
and she is referred to in his 1914 death notice:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204660440

I have found in online family tree refs that CH married Blanche E E Whitfield at Milson's Point NSW in January 1903,
and she is referred to in his 1949 death notice:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18109474

Found the marriage notice ( To Elsie May Stubbs) in the SA BDM books at the library and he names his father as Charles. This links to his birth in the online Vic BDM of 1878 where his father is Charles and his mother Isabella Watt.

His death notice in the same set of books names no NOK

 

[RedmanWasHere]

In this year's stats book, it listed 4 names as being the oldest living past players (all born in the 1920's with Lou Richards since publication dying at 94 years old.)

That is incorrect because the oldest is a guy called Ken Feltscheer who was born in 1915 (age 102.)

It also has Jack Jones, Russell Renfrey and another guy.

Ken Feltscheer turned 100 years old in 2015.

 

[Harry Hook]

Lads I think I have the answer.

Norm Turnbull is Norman Albert Victor Turnbull.

Evidence:

This article from the 9 September 1959 edition of the Biz of Farfield in NSW refers to a meeting with Norm Turnbull the trainer and refers to his VFL days and established that he then lived in Cabramatta in 1959.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189927474

Undeniable in my view that we are talking about the same man.

Now if you google search the variables " Norm Turnbull Cabramatta" a nice narrow search range you get referred to the Turnbull clan Genealogy website.

Open that website up and and search for the one word "Cabramatta".

Note that is the nexus between the person, the article and the trainer. You get a reference to one person Norman Albert Victor Turnbull who is listed as being born circa 1894 ( no date) in Victoria, marries in 1929 ( relatively late in life for that age). The wikipedia entry for Turnbull lists his date of birth as being in June 1894.

Importantly though it lists his occupation as between 1943 - 1955 horse trainer in Cabramatta, New South Wales.

Can there be 2 horse trainers in NSW in the 1950s with the name Norm Turnbull who trained in Cabramatta ( and who is separately listed as being a VFL footballer.

No date of death is set out but that should be relatively straight forward to find and, in truth is likely to be 1977 in NSW, probably near Cabramatta.

He was referred to by one of his apprentices as a "scally wag" so you can read into that what you will.

 

[GreyCrow]

Lads I think I have the answer.

Norm Turnbull is Norman Albert Victor Turnbull.

Evidence:

This article from the 9 September 1959 edition of the Biz of Farfield in NSW refers to a meeting with Norm Turnbull the trainer and refers to his VFL days and established that he then lived in Cabramatta in 1959.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189927474

Undeniable in my view that we are talking about the same man.

Now if you google search the variables " Norm Turnbull Cabramatta" a nice narrow search range you get referred to the Turnbull clan Genealogy website.

Open that website up and and search for the one word "Cabramatta".

Note that is the nexus between the person, the article and the trainer. You get a reference to one person Norman Albert Victor Turnbull who is listed as being born circa 1894 ( no date) in Victoria, marries in 1929 ( relatively late in life for that age). The wikipedia entry for Turnbull lists his date of birth as being in June 1894.

Importantly though it lists his occupation as between 1943 - 1955 horse trainer in Cabramatta, New South Wales.

Can there be 2 horse trainers in NSW in the 1950s with the name Norm Turnbull who trained in Cabramatta ( and who is separately listed as being a VFL footballer.

No date of death is set out but that should be relatively straight forward to find and, in truth is likely to be 1977 in NSW, probably near Cabramatta.

He was referred to by one of his apprentices as a "scally wag" so you can read into that what you will.

I found similar info as the above post states. My concern with the family website is the info can be misleading.

Though given all the 'stories' and memories and even adding the lack of any mention of war service I also suggest Norman is Norman Albert

 

[the croucher]

Lads I think I have the answer.

Norm Turnbull is Norman Albert Victor Turnbull.

Evidence:

This article from the 9 September 1959 edition of the Biz of Farfield in NSW refers to a meeting with Norm Turnbull the trainer and refers to his VFL days and established that he then lived in Cabramatta in 1959.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189927474

Undeniable in my view that we are talking about the same man.

Now if you google search the variables " Norm Turnbull Cabramatta" a nice narrow search range you get referred to the Turnbull clan Genealogy website.

Open that website up and and search for the one word "Cabramatta".

Note that is the nexus between the person, the article and the trainer. You get a reference to one person Norman Albert Victor Turnbull who is listed as being born circa 1894 ( no date) in Victoria, marries in 1929 ( relatively late in life for that age). The wikipedia entry for Turnbull lists his date of birth as being in June 1894.

Importantly though it lists his occupation as between 1943 - 1955 horse trainer in Cabramatta, New South Wales.

Can there be 2 horse trainers in NSW in the 1950s with the name Norm Turnbull who trained in Cabramatta ( and who is separately listed as being a VFL footballer.

No date of death is set out but that should be relatively straight forward to find and, in truth is likely to be 1977 in NSW, probably near Cabramatta.

He was referred to by one of his apprentices as a "scally wag" so you can read into that what you will.

Thanks for that detail. Enabled me to cross-check electoral rolls etc.

1943 roll for Cabramatta does show him listed (just Norman - no A V) as Longfield Street with occupation horse trainer, and Alvina Frances Turnbull at 128 Longfield "home duties." According to the Victorian BDMs site Norman Albert Victor married Alvina Frances Hellwig in 1929.

1977 roll for sub-district Mosman in seat of Warringah shows both Norman and Alvina living at 73 Muston Street, Mosman. No occupation shown for him, so presume retired.

Using the "date range" aspect of the NSW BDMs site have been able to narrow down Norman's death date to either 19 or 20 July 1977.

 

[the croucher]

Norm or Norman Turnbull is difficult to pin down on news stories alone. Some stories, (just as today ) seem to stretch the definitions a bit

<snip>
Norman Henry Moirer Turnbull is the most likely to have served https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=305817 as his wifes death notice states 2nd AIF http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11981613 Norman was born 1899.
<snip>

No, I think that is a different person.

Rita Turnbull died in June 1941 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8178492

and here is the marriage report for Rita Howard from January 1927 where she marries Norman Turnbull
who is identified as youngest son of D W Turnbull.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164455410

The Vic BDMs site includes a record of birth for a Norman Turnbull registered in 1896 with father shown as David Walter Turnbull.
D W is a brother to James Turnbull who died on 10 August 1911, a notice the next day includes ref to James having a son N A ...

I think we have a case of two Turnbull boys being born in the mid-1890s both named Norman and being first cousins !!

 

[rbartlett]

Hi all .
Thanks Grey/Harry/Croucher for all your input.

So to clarify everyones submissions he's what we think has happened. Is this what everyone agrees with:
1. We believe Norman Turnbull (who played for StKilda and Richmond ) is Norman Albert Victor Turnbull.
2. He also ran a pool hall, and was a successful trainer.
3. He was failed to attend compulsory drill training (this is before WW1 broke out) , as he had a previous conviction.
4. He then plays with StKilda in 1914
5. From 1915 - 1918 ... we don't know what he did. (Apart from that orig article saying he enlisted)
6. From 1918- 1920 he played with StKilda again
7. From 1921- 1923 he played with Richmond
8.... then became a successful trainer .... etc etc

So if he didn't enlist for WW1 (or go overseas), what did he do for 4 years.

Rhett

 

[the croucher]

Hi all .
Thanks Grey/Harry/Croucher for all your input.

So to clarify everyones submissions he's what we think has happened. Is this what everyone agrees with:
1. We believe Norman Turnbull (who played for StKilda and Richmond ) is Norman Albert Victor Turnbull.
2. He also ran a pool hall, and was a successful trainer.
3. He was failed to attend compulsory drill training (this is before WW1 broke out) , as he had a previous conviction.
4. He then plays with StKilda in 1914
5. From 1915 - 1918 ... we don't know what he did. (Apart from that orig article saying he enlisted)
6. From 1918- 1920 he played with StKilda again
7. From 1920- 1923 he played with Richmond
8.... then became a successful trainer .... etc etc

So if he didn't enlist for WW1 (or go overseas), what did he do for 4 years.

Rhett

Yes, Rhett. I'd agree with practically all that - did just have a duh moment though - St Kilda didn't play at all in 1916 or 1917, so whilst not full explanation for what was going on in his life at the time, does fill in a little more of the story perhaps.
And he doesn't start with Richmond until 1921. The permit committee refused him permission to move in 1920,
see second paragraph here
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1694186

Here is a snippet I just now found in a match programme:
The VFL Record for 21 July 1928 (Vic v WA state match) includes following on page 24

It was a great week for the Richmond people. They had beaten Carlton, and Norman Turnbull had won the Grand National Steeplechase with Namera in the Tigers' colours—Yellow and Black. Turnbull used to play for Richmond, and was one of the team which won the grand final from Carlton in 1921. He was on the half- forward line and scored one of the goals.

Cheers
Ross

 

[rbartlett]

Yes, Rhett. I'd agree with practically all that - did just have a duh moment though - St Kilda didn't play at all in 1916 or 1917, so whilst not full explanation for what was going on in his life at the time, does fill in a little more of the story perhaps.
Cheers
Ross

Thanks Ross
Of course! StKilda didn't play those 2 years. So its possible that Turnbull was playing with some other League/local team/ junior team during that time. That could explain the majority of the gap if he didn't enlist in War.
Cheers

 

[the croucher]

Just a query. I was doing a random check of 1897 players and came across the 1 match player for Collingwood apparently called Dick Hall whose only game was in round 6.

Are we sure his name was Dick Hall. There was a Dick Hall who did play in 1897 but he played for Williams town.

There are probably sources which establish his name as Dick but I could not find them.

Well done Harry. Indeed we have another puzzle worth pursuing.
The match a player named Hall appears in for Collingwood was played on Saturday 29 May 1897
against South Melbourne:
http://australianfootball.com/game/view/36

Cannot be Dick Hall of Williamstown because he plays for that club on same date vs Footscray and is mentioned in the match report printed by the Williamstown Chronicle
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/68586948

Will check some other resources and see if more clues turn up !

[5 mins later]...well, wasn't expecting to find further so quickly...

Henry Douglas Hall (known as Dick, and also 'Ironsides') died in July 1938 - obit in local W'town paper
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70689075

 

[GreyCrow]

No, I think that is a different person.

Rita Turnbull died in June 1941 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8178492

and here is the marriage report for Rita Howard from January 1927 where she marries Norman Turnbull
who is identified as youngest son of D W Turnbull.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164455410

The Vic BDMs site includes a record of birth for a Norman Turnbull registered in 1896 with father shown as David Walter Turnbull.
D W is a brother to James Turnbull who died on 10 August 1911, a notice the next day includes ref to James having a son N A ...

I think we have a case of two Turnbull boys being born in the mid-1890s both named Norman and being first cousins !!

Agreed. I listed Norman Henry Moirer Turnbull to show I felt he was the originator of the War Service story.

Just on F Turnbull. A Fred Turnbull played for Brighton in 1914. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154816931

Have found a Turnbull playing for St Kilda in 1915. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154820174 It is Fred Turnbull http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154815365

N. Turnbull noted as playing against Richmond June 1918 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154789853

 

[Harry Hook]

Agreed. I listed Norman Henry Moirer Turnbull to show I felt he was the originator of the War Service story.

Just on F Turnbull. A Fred Turnbull played for Brighton in 1914. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154816931

Have found a Turnbull playing for St Kilda in 1915. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154820174 It is Fred Turnbull http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154815365

N. Turnbull noted as playing against Richmond June 1918 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154789853

You were on the money with your post a few back.

I searched the World War 1 Nominal roll on find my past for Norman Turnbull.

There were 2, Norman Frederic Turnbull and Norman Henry Turnbull. There were 146 Turnbulls listed as serving in that roll. He could have served under a false name. This is a possibility if indeed he did have a criminal record. But this is conjecture but may explain why he does not appear in the press.

Alternatively he did not serve and was possibly working in a pool hall and rose to be a manager.

I get the feeling from all reports he skated on both sides of the law early on so he may not have wanted to be reported but he later emerged into a more legitimate occupation, if it can be said being a horse trainer at that time was entirely legitimate.

 

[Harry Hook]

Well done Harry. Indeed we have another puzzle worth pursuing.
The match a player named Hall appears in for Collingwood was played on Saturday 29 May 1897
against South Melbourne:
http://australianfootball.com/game/view/36

Cannot be Dick Hall of Williamstown because he plays for that club on same date vs Footscray and is mentioned in the match report printed by the Williamstown Chronicle
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/68586948

Will check some other resources and see if more clues turn up !

[5 mins later]...well, wasn't expecting to find further so quickly...

Henry Douglas Hall (known as Dick, and also 'Ironsides') died in July 1938 - obit in local W'town paper
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70689075

Indeed this seems to support the identity of Dick Hall of Williamstown but does not seem to answer who was the Hall of Collingwood.

If I may be frank, I take a lot of the old records with a grain of salt because to the extent they were badly recorded and inaccurate, they were based commonly on fading memories of men who remembered their old teammates by their known names so they remembered Bert when Bert could have been Albert or Herbert and that may have been their first, second or indeed commonly used names.

 

[35Daicos]

While Dick Hall was a one-game player for Collingwood in the VFL, it should be pointed out that he is credited with having played 32 games for the team (19 goals) in the Association days.

https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/dick-hall/

CFC Debut Round 6, 1895
VFA Matches Played at Collingwood 32
Recruited From Collingwood Juniors

Interestingly, the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers doesn't include this player.

 

[barrackers]

Just a query. I was doing a random check of 1897 players and came across the 1 match player for Collingwood apparently called Dick Hall whose only game was in round 6.

Are we sure his name was Dick Hall. There was a Dick Hall who did play in 1897 but he played for Williams town.

There are probably sources which establish his name as Dick but I could not find them.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162376256
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/54489003
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/207896459
Adelaide Observer, SA Register & Evening Journal 29 May 1897 - Collingwood's upcoming trip to Adelaide, departing Melbourne 7 June names R Hall. Perhaps it should be taken with a grain of salt though as Flynn is also named (assumedly https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/jim-flynn/) but the Leader on the same day http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196841649 lists Flynn as a former CFC player playing for Geelong.


http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108482471
Record 5 June 1897 - gives Collingwood's team for the previous Saturday (29 May), Hall is named on the wing.


http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/35081203
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/54501532
The Advertiser, SA Register 9 June 1897 - Hall not named in the 24 players who arrived in Adelaide



EDIT:
Played in our first flag too
https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/vfa-vfl-premiers/

 

[35Daicos]

In this year's stats book, it listed 4 names as being the oldest living past players (all born in the 1920's with Lou Richards since publication dying at 94 years old.)

That is incorrect because the oldest is a guy called Ken Feltscheer who was born in 1915 (age 102.)

It also has Jack Jones, Russell Renfrey and another guy.

Ken Feltscheer turned 100 years old in 2015.

I think you've misread that, Redman!! Those names are from the list of OLDEST LIVING PREMIERSHIP PLAYERS (page 722)! Page 721 has:-

OLDEST LIVING LEAGUE PLAYERS
Player Date of Birth Club/s
Max Wilson 9/7/1914 Carlton
Ken Feltscheer 9/6/1915 Melbourne/Hawthorn
Keith Rae 30/7/1917 Carlton/Richmond
Bob Sayers 26/10/1917 Fitzroy

 

[RedmanWasHere]

I think you've misread that, Redman!! Those names are from the list of OLDEST LIVING PREMIERSHIP PLAYERS (page 722)! Page 721 has:-

OLDEST LIVING LEAGUE PLAYERS
Player Date of Birth Club/s
Max Wilson 9/7/1914 Carlton
Ken Feltscheer 9/6/1915 Melbourne/Hawthorn
Keith Rae 30/7/1917 Carlton/Richmond
Bob Sayers 26/10/1917 Fitzroy

I overlooked that part.

Cheers.

 

[GreyCrow]

Page 5

I. Mick Mornane played his first (and last) game for Fitzroy that day, perhaps someone mixed him up with Caldwell:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1907/030619070518.html
Mornane is not mentioned in match reports in The Age, The Argus or The Australasian, while Caldwell is in two of the three.

Page 12

Mr Thomas Patrick Nolan, one of the best known and most popular members of the legal profession in Melbourne, died last night in Epworth private hospital, Richmond.

Last week Mr Nolan was operated on for internal trouble, and on Thursday he was reported out of danger. On Sunday morning, however, a second operation became necessary, and Mr Nolan died of heart failure. He was associated with the firm of Mr M. Mornane. solicitor, of Queen Street.

.

Surprised nobody linked these 2 pieces. Not sure what they mean exactly but if young Mick Mornane was the son of one of the Citys leading Legal Minds maybe he didn't want to be mentioned too much.

Once again not sure if it has any meaning and may require some more chasing up in daylight

 

[35Daicos]

Just a query. I was doing a random check of 1897 players and came across the 1 match player for Collingwood apparently called Dick Hall whose only game was in round 6.

Are we sure his name was Dick Hall. There was a Dick Hall who did play in 1897 but he played for Williams town.

There are probably sources which establish his name as Dick but I could not find them.

He's Richard Hall in the book The Mightiest Magpies- The Story Of Every Collingwood Premiership Season 1896 - 2010. He played 19 games (12 goals) for the 1896 (VFA) premiership team. It seems a bit odd that he only managed the one game in 1897.

It's also rather odd that the book has his "Collingwood Years" as 1895-96, with no mention of 1897, though I imagine it's just a mistake.

 

[Harry Hook]

More on Hall and something to deepen the mystery.

Dick Hall apparently had a well known brother who also played football.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article68584025

Williamstown Chronicle 4 May 1895.

And Dick Hall was playing for Williamstown in 1894, if not before.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article68574581

Williamstown Chronicle 30 June 1894.

A Hall was playing for Williamstown in 1892

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article68571523

Williamstown Chronicle 9 July 1892.

And when Collingwood played Williamstown in 1894, Hall played for Williamstown.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article68574495


WC 9 June 1894.

 

[Harry Hook]

He's Richard Hall in the book The Mightiest Magpies- The Story Of Every Collingwood Premiership Season 1896 - 2010. He played 19 games (12 goals) for the 1896 (VFA) premiership team. It seems a bit odd that he only managed the one game in 1897.

It's also rather odd that the book has his "Collingwood Years" as 1895-96, with no mention of 1897, though I imagine it's just a mistake.

Authors may then have just given his formal name as Richard presuming Dick wasn't his original name. Also one doesn't know how well they researched the early premiership players. Did they just rely on existing internetrecords, no offence to the authors meant, it's just that I like verification of these things, if at all possible.