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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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rbartlett said:
I notice Jack Main's wiki entry (b: 1876) has him for Sth Melb 1907 , 1 game (at age 31!) - then a game to Sturt 1911 , 6 games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Main
So I was trying to figure out what he did in between or before.
And then I realised we had a Jack Main play for us in the VFA from 1902-1904. If it is that above Jack that would make him 26 years of age - which is possible.
Then there is this permit in 1908 from Sth Melb to Northcote for J Main. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197355733

Then there is a permit from Northcote to Port Melb in 1909 for J Main. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196116871

I'm trying to then eventually connect him to Sturt (as per the wiki). At the moment, it is possible his journey is Richmond 1902-1904, Sth Melb 1907, Northcote 1908, Port Melb 1909, ????? , Sturt 1911.
I didn't want to fill up this Wiki with all that info just yet without throwing it out here for others to comment on.
Click to expand...
This has Maine kicking 3 goals for Richmond in a 1903 game and it says "That Maine (late of the defunct Blenheim) has developed into a first-class forward for Richmond." It must be referring to Jack Main. A lot of the articles I've seen have his last name with an 'e' on the end.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164949038

You also have E. Main on your list, playing in 1902. This (link below) was posted a few pages ago, and it has E. Main (Blenheim) named in a Victorian Junior Association representative team for a game in 1902. It's reasonably likely to be the player on your list, and being from Blenheim he may well be related to Jack Main.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199402014
 
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GreyCrow said:
An interesting conundrum , once again, with another John Main

There is a Permit for a John Main June 1907 from North Fremantle to South Melbourne. Does the John Main play after June?

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198619976

Noticed a story about a 23 yr old John MainE getting injured after a kick in the stomach playing in Fremantle This one is aged 23

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201656978

One and the same?



On J Main (whichever one it is) there is a nice little piece with a mention of 5 Victorians arriving at Sturt, with Conquest being reminded to ''unlearn his Victorian ways'' :D

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5268570
Click to expand...
'The Encyclopedia' says of Jack Main (who played for South Melbourne in 1907) "Ex-North Fremantle."
 
GreyCrow said:
An interesting conundrum , once again, with another John Main

There is a Permit for a John Main June 1907 from North Fremantle to South Melbourne. Does the John Main play after June?

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198619976

Noticed a story about a 23 yr old John MainE getting injured after a kick in the stomach playing in Fremantle This one is aged 23

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201656978

One and the same?



On J Main (whichever one it is) there is a nice little piece with a mention of 5 Victorians arriving at Sturt, with Conquest being reminded to ''unlearn his Victorian ways'' :D

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5268570
Click to expand...
I can't see that it could be the same player who ended up going from North Fremantle to South Melbourne a few years later, as the injury he received was apparently of an extremely bad nature, and he most likely didn't play football again. There is also the issue of the last name being slightly different.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/25096622

"The Accident to a Footballer. The operation performed on John Maine, the member of the North Fremantle Football Club, has proved successful, and he
is now out of danger. As the nature of his injury will prevent him from doing any hard work in the future, the committee of the club to which he belonged has decided to hold an entertainment in the North Fremantle Town Hall."
 

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the croucher said:
Have had a bit of a look for Jimmy Schellnack/Shellnack
australianfootball.com shows no birthdate, nor date of death.
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/jim+schellnack/1941

One of the trees posted on Ancestry gives his date of death as 24 May 1968
(with birth shown as abt 1880, parents named as Charles Frederick Schellnack and Catherine nee McDonald).

The Greater Metropolitan [ Melbourne ] Cemeteries website returns a record for James Schellnack buried I believe at Coburg,
with date of funeral service 27 May 1968 and his age shown as 88.

an article in the local Heathcote paper published on 23 January 1890 refers to some school prizes handed out just before Christmas 1889 - I note that in the Grade 2 list James Schellnack receives an award for good progress, that child would I assume be aged about 7 or 8.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...mits=dateFrom=1890-01-23|||dateTo=1890-01-23#

Shellnack regularly appears in lists of best players for Brunswick from 1900 to 1903, and then plays his first match for South Melbourne v Melbourne on 4 June 1904. The local SM paper The Record issue of 11 June 1904 comments that: “…Shellnack, who received his permit on the previous Wednesday, is from the Brunswick Club…”
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165172882

A 1904 family notice relating to an accidental drowning of two young boys by name of Falconer
[event 30 November, notice published 10 December] gives further evidence of our subject’s links with Brunswick.
“…grandchildren of Mrs Catherine Shellnack, of Wilson Street, Brunswick, nephews of F.R., J.C., D., H., A., and J. Shellnack, also Mrs Delisle, of Brunswick. …”

Electoral rolls from 1903 to 1967 show a James Schellnack/Shellnack living in the Brunswick area.
Click to expand...
One of the extracts I posted re Casey at Brunswick refers to Schellnack playing for Brunswick.

Late edit

Schellnack who played at Brunswick was Jim Schellnack

Coburg Leader 1901

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66820970

He plays from about 1900.

A Schellnack returns to Brunswick in 1908

CL 6 June 1908

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66896094
 
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rbartlett said:
1st answer: The Sth Melb game is June 22nd 1907
2nd answer: There is a J Main permit Port Melb - Sturt April 1911 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196193084 , which would fit into my earlier timeline (as that was a J Main at Pt Melb in 1909).

It would be good at the very least to try to fill in the gaps of his clubs/years
A) perhaps I'm wrong connecting Richmond's Jack Main 1902-1904, to this one. I would need to find a permit from Richmond or somewhere TO Perth (Nth Frem)
B) If I am wrong, then do we gather that his journey may be: North Fremantle 1907 , Sth Melb 1907, Northcote 1908, Port Melb 1909-11, Sturt 1911.
C) If so, does that make his birthday date correct?
Click to expand...
Sorry to mess you up but this is the permit data I have located:

J Main South Melbourne to Pembroke 1908

Argus 2 May 1908

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10672319

Note it also has other Richmond players you should check.

confirmed in the Age

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197355733

L Maine was from Hawthorne Rovers

Record 11 May 1907

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162257625

Here is where some fun happens. AFL Tables have the South Melbourne player who plays in 1907 and 1908 as Lindsay Maine and Wikipedia has him as coming from Hawthorne Rovers.

Lindsay or Les then is supposed to have his last game for South Melbourne on 8 June 1898.

Then there is this report of 15 June 1907 from the Record which lists him as Les Maine


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162257111

Also 6 July 1907


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162598753

Then on 13 July 1908 you have Leslie Main Fitzroy Juniors to Carlton Juniors

Argus
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10183863

PS in Jack Main's only game in 1907, Lindsay Maine, is supposed to have played as well so that seems to rule out that Jack didn't play, if there was any doubt.
 
Harry Hook said:
In his sole game, J Main was referred to as being ex WA and that it was his first game

Record

29 June 1907

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162256437

Also of interest is that H A Harrison, founder of the game, visited the rooms before the game.
Click to expand...
Ghent also gets a mention in that para.

The birthdate/death date supplied by wiki is coincidental with an Alfred John Main born to William and Louisa nee Hodges. The death cert says John Alfred but those names as parents. Neither here nor there on the name change. I have not been able to ascertain any WA Main/e born in that time

This notice for Probate lists an address in Victoria in 1945 27 Johnson St Northcote

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12159681
 
GreyCrow said:
Ghent also gets a mention in that para.

The birthdate/death date supplied by wiki is coincidental with an Alfred John Main born to William and Louisa nee Hodges. The death cert says John Alfred but those names as parents. Neither here nor there on the name change. I have not been able to ascertain any WA Main/e born in that time

This notice for Probate lists an address in Victoria in 1945 27 Johnson St Northcote

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12159681
Click to expand...
I knew I had something additional. I have the history book of the North Fremantle Football Club called "the Mighty Magpies". I knew the author of it.

They have a listing for all players then known for the club between 1901 to 1915. It says the player's name was John Allan (Jack) Maine and he played 12 games in 1904.

This report says he was Maine of North Fremantle

August 1904

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82472392

This team list of NF in 1904 gives his name as Maine


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82474921

as does this in a separate newspaper

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228015155


as does this from another newspaper from the start of the season

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228015155


This report of the West Australian of 9 August 1904 refers to John Maine's accident during a game.


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228015155

This article from the Kalgoorlie Miner of 8 August 1904 even says he, John Maine, was 23 at the time of the accident.


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89174076
This article of the Murchison Times also reports about the full details of John Maine's accident


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article233387347


So if the Port Melbourne Standard in 1909 got his name as Maine and all the newspapers in the West had had his name as Maine, maybe his name was Maine.
 
A John Allen Main was born in Victoria in 1877 to Robert and Elizabeth nee Whiting. Marriage of a John Allan Main in 1928. And well well death of a John Allan Maine in 1945. Son of Robert and Elizabeth nee Whiting

1 year out on the birth but thats acceptable. Now to see how and why he went to WA ( if it is him)
 

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Did another battery of searches for Dick Casey. From 1900 it seems that he was involved in a competitive cricket, football, politics and was closely aligned to the Brunswick area as well as being involved in one or two incidents\scandals along the way. But one thing that was absent was any real biographical reports and even the the reports of his death are relatively sparse with it becoming of some interest only as a result of him living a widow and 4 children.

There are no reports of him having a brother or sister or even his place of birth.

After his death you get a few retrospectives but again little that can give one a clue as to who he was besides one "Dick Casey". It is almost as if it was planned.

But he is likely to have had family who were resident in Melbourne at that time and it may be easier to locate his dob through his family, ie through a family address crossreferenced with his electoral role.

Bottom line is he didn't leave Melbourne until a stint in Tasmania in the 1910s.
 
rbartlett said:
I notice Jack Main's wiki entry (b: 1876) has him for Sth Melb 1907 , 1 game (at age 31!) - then a game to Sturt 1911 , 6 games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Main
So I was trying to figure out what he did in between or before.
And then I realised we had a Jack Main play for us in the VFA from 1902-1904. If it is that above Jack that would make him 26 years of age - which is possible.
Then there is this permit in 1908 from Sth Melb to Northcote for J Main. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197355733

Then there is a permit from Northcote to Port Melb in 1909 for J Main. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196116871

I'm trying to then eventually connect him to Sturt (as per the wiki). At the moment, it is possible his journey is Richmond 1902-1904, Sth Melb 1907, Northcote 1908, Port Melb 1909, ????? , Sturt 1911.
I didn't want to fill up this Wiki with all that info just yet without throwing it out here for others to comment on.
Click to expand...

I've accessed the Richmond Annual Reports and Richmond Minute Book and they list our players as Jack Maine, and E Maine.
The Herald lists them as Maine (there is the occasional dropping of the letter e at the end)
So the Richmond 'Maines' aren't connected to the Sth Melb Jack Main.
I'll update my site to say they were from Blenheim FC. Thanks for those who assisted.

I'm not too sure where that leaves you guys with what Jack Main did between Sth Melb 1907 , and Sturt 1911.
 
Folks we've scanned and uploaded RichmondFC Annual Reports from 1887 -1953 for people to access. (PDFs). We are planning to put the remaining (1954-2012) in the coming months.
They can be located on the MCC Library website.
Here is the link - the first result is what you click on
http://mcc.softlinkhosting.com.au/liberty3/opac/search.do?queryTerm=richmond football club annual report and balance sheet&mode=BASIC&operator=bestMatch&dataFile=true&title=Title ... enter here&publicationYear=Year From&yearTo=Year To&mainSubject=Subject ... enter here&publisher=Publisher ... enter here&series=Series ... enter here&limit=All&resourceCollection=All&undefined=undefined&modeRadio=KEYWORD&activeMenuItem=false#

If that doesn't work just search for Richmond Football Club annual report and balance sheet on the MCC Library page and the first result is what you click on.
 
rbartlett said:
For those asking about Richmond VFA players - here is our most up-to-date list we have.
Of course I'm trying to get first names for all players ( a mighty task), so if anyone ever comes across one they can identify then go for it!
It's a lot of fun solving these puzzles.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players
Click to expand...
This says "McCance (from Footscray)" playing for Richmond in 1902:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199387229

However, this suggests a McCance from Footscray would be playing for North Melbourne that year:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/103263539
 
rbartlett said:
I've accessed the Richmond Annual Reports and Richmond Minute Book and they list our players as Jack Maine, and E Maine.
The Herald lists them as Maine (there is the occasional dropping of the letter e at the end)
So the Richmond 'Maines' aren't connected to the Sth Melb Jack Main.
I'll update my site to say they were from Blenheim FC. Thanks for those who assisted.

I'm not too sure where that leaves you guys with what Jack Main did between Sth Melb 1907 , and Sturt 1911.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if this is helpful or otherwise.

1902 20 - June

E. Main Blenheim

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199402014

confirmed

The Sportsman
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227536811

1902 Richmond

Maine

The Age 21 July 1902
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9089161


1903 Richmond

Maine

The Sportsman 30 June 1903

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227537011


So a Maine was playing at Richmond from 1902 to 1903 but whether it was E or W was not stated.
 

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Harry Hook said:
I'm not sure if this is helpful or otherwise.
So a Maine was playing at Richmond from 1902 to 1903 but whether it was E or W was not stated.
Click to expand...

Many thanks.
I'm going to credit them as
Jack Maine (1902-04) 21 games, and the other E Maine (1902 - 2games, 9th Aug. And 16th Aug, on which both Maine's were playing).
That spelling is how they appear in RFC AR, and some of the press. I'm assuming they are brothers but haven't seen it printed anyway yet. I may find more when I find their birth cert.
 
rbartlett said:
Dave Alexander Elder was a noted Cricket umpire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Elder_(umpire).
He also was boundary ump for 2 games in 1897 VFL. http://aflua.com.au/statistics/goal-umpire-statistics/ as confirmed by AFLUA historian.
So my question is... is he the same Dave Elder who played for Richmond VFA in 1885-1887. (There was also an Alf "Punch" Elder who was one of the more notable players in VFA Richmond and I think they were brothers.)
Click to expand...
This is on page 561 of Mark Pennings' book Origins of Australian Football- Victoria's Early History - Volume 2, and covers the origin of (some of) Richmond's recruits for the 1885 season:-
Richmond 1885:-
New: Batters (SY), J. Coles (Jun.), J. Conlon (Crem.), F. Crohan (GJ/Geel/Melb.), T. Graham (SM), N. Harper (Rich. Un.), A. Hill (Melb.), G. Howarth (Jun.), S. Kelso (Stanley/Rich. Stand.), J. Mullally (PH/Rich. Jun.), W. Rushton (Rich. Stand.), A. Searle (Stanley/SC), J. Shand (Jun.), J. Shore (Jun.), R. Smart (Jun.), G. Smith (Carl/EM/ Rich. Jun.), Soutar (Jun.), C. Stephens (Rich. Jun.), J. Stewart (SS/Nth. Rich./Crem.), C. Syle (SoC/ Carl./Stanley), J. Taylor (SM), W. Wells (SM/Rich. Stand.), F. Wookey (Rich. Un/EM)

A .pdf version of the book can be freely downloaded here:- https://eprints.qut.edu.au/74662/
 
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Had another run at Dick Casey focussing on when he started at Brunswick. According to my searches today a Casey was amongst the best players for Brunswick in 1899 but was not there in 1898.

Moreover, a Casey for Carlton ( William O Casey) from Brunswick played in 1899 so that eliminates the possibility he returned.

Also interesting is the fact that in 1898, Brunswick struggled for numbers but that in 1899, when Casey arrived, their improvement was noted as a club.

Also I ran a search on whether William O Casey was connected to Dick Casey, ie as a brother but there were no references to that either.

Lastly I happened upon a story about one Robertson of Brunswick in 1899 who was so keen to play he walked 5 miles and took a train to play. This indicates that Brunswick were casting a wide net.

So if Casey did start in 1899, he would have been 15 to 16 if his dob was 1883 and his youth is never remarked upon either.

What this establishes in my mind is we have to cast our net wider. We have focussed on Casey the South Melbourne player but he was already experienced by then. His Brunswick history may be the key to establishing his background.

Then I did a specific search of 2 Brunswick newspapers during World War 1 for references to Casey in football. The references I found were to William O Casey and I couldn't find any to D Casey or R Casey or brother footballers.
 
On Dick Casey, I've approached his case from a different angle.

Firstly look at the death notice dated 17 April 1919 again:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155208883

It says he was 37 at his date of death. All Wikipedia records state he was born in circa 1883 when mathematically there is much chance or more that he was born in 1882.

Why is that important? It puts his start date at Brunswick at age 17 not 16 which in my view is far more logical.

Now also look at the address nominated in the death notice of 126 Moray Street South Melbourne. That in my view adds an addition tool for us.

I don't have full ancestry access but when I searched the name Casey with the address 126 Moray Street South Melbourne there came up a number of references including birth details of one Leslie Walter Casey (1883 to 1949) and his death certificate.

Again why is this significant. From recollection, in one of my previous posts, I pointed out that a W Casey (not the Carlton player, I'm assuming) played with R Casey in the Brunswick team in years 1901 onwards. If there is family link, the death certificate of LW would give additional detail as to parentage as well as may disprove the 1883 date.

Moreover the Death Notice lists his children as, presumably in descending age order as Mary, Alice, James, Agnes, Katie, Eileen, and Josie(I think). If one does the ancestry search using the address 126 Moray Street as the filter with the name Casey, some of these names of the children appear. I've also posted details of one of his children's deaths in 1945 earlier that correlates with this.

Interestingly Richard James Casey is listed in the free searches I do, in his electoral roll searches as living at an address in the City and not South Melbourne. This also may be consistent with his family returning to the family home when he (Dick) got influenza.

What is crucial though is the address nominated by Casey's wife of Moray Street. It appears to have been the family home.

What then makes the debate a little more interesting is the funeral notice of our man in the Age of 17 April 1919

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155208968

which lists his name as James Richard Casey while giving the same address and football playing background ( and not Richard James Casey).
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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