Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[the croucher]

There are so many which is why I randomly check.

Anyway that is an aside.

Is there any permit history on Gaynor.

Croucher, can you run some searches for me on Casey on the matters raised above.

I'm sure that we can crack it if we can go the genoleogical route.

Sure, I've tried a few approaches to solve the Casey question,
but will re-visit the matter and report later in the week.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks. Good clue. This person was James Bernard Gaynor, died in NZ 20 Nov 1918, aged 44.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...dateTo=1918-12-31|||l-category=Family+Notices

The Vic BDMs site reveals that Gaynor married Lillie Robottom in 1897.

If he is the Carlton player of 1904 then he'd have been about 30 on debut. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Cannot at the moment find a ref to show a given name or initial for the player,
so one wonders where the claim comes from that his name was Jimmy.

Found him

The notice mentions a Mrs Lovell (Melbourne)

A Marriage between a Gaynor and a Lovell occurred 1890 ( cert 7828)
Florence Amelia Married George Arthur Lovell
Florence Amelia Gaynor born to Bernard and Jane Moore 1871 ( cert 209)
James Bernard Gaynor born to Bernard and Jane Moore 1875 ( cert 8441)

EventBirth

Event registration number8441

Registration year1875

Personal information
Family nameGAYNOR

Given namesJames Bernard

SexUnknown

Father's nameBernard

Mother's nameJane (Moore)

Place of birthDAYL

 

[Harry Hook]

This bloke Gaynor is a mystery. I did a search for the name Gaynor \Football in 1904 in Victoria.

There is some reference to a Gaynor plaing at a school level cf


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139118862

Also a J Gaynor being an umpire

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article200494500

and not a lot else.

As for a Gaynor Carlton search for 1904

Nothing related to football.

And as to the game itself, the reporting of the game ( as much to do with the fact that it involved St Kilda is very thin).

What I can tell you are the changes prior to and after Gaynor.

Round 3 1904 Geelong

Carlton includes Rupe Bradley, Percy Pitt, Henry Whight.

Round 4 1904 St Kilda

Bradley, Pitt and Whight not in the team , Gaynor , Bob Boyle and Pat Pelly in

Round 5 Collingwood

Garner and Charlie Ross out, Bradley and Sam Marron ( 1 game career ) in.

I think Rupe Bradley is the key here.

Unfortunately I can't find much about the changes made. Others might be able to do a better job than me.

 

[the croucher]

Did another battery of searches for Dick Casey.
<snip>
Bottom line is he didn't leave Melbourne until a stint in Tasmania in the 1910s.

Casey was in Tas for 1913 season - arrival to coach City in the NTFA
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152890995

note from early in 1914 season that he'd been cleared back to Victoria
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152709615

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Stumbled across another minor error:
"Hec" Davidson who played for Melbourne had the real name Harold Albert Davidson (born in Sale) and died on 24 Jul 1976 - funeral notice can be seen in The Age on 26 Jul 1976 - interestingly a quick scan of papers at the time he played use the nickname "Hag" rather than Hec and permit/news records make his identity clear.

Harold Davidson played for North a couple of years later and is also listed on australianfootball.com/wikipedia as dying on 24 Jul 1976. This is incredibly unlikely to be true... I haven't been able to identify who he actually was though, or what a correct date of death might be - no record in Vic BDM for a 1910 birth makes sense so could well have come from interstate...

 

[GreyCrow]

Stumbled across another minor error:
"Hec" Davidson who played for Melbourne had the real name Harold Albert Davidson (born in Sale) and died on 24 Jul 1976 - funeral notice can be seen in The Age on 26 Jul 1976 - interestingly a quick scan of papers at the time he played use the nickname "Hag" rather than Hec and permit/news records make his identity clear.

Harold Davidson played for North a couple of years later and is also listed on australianfootball.com/wikipedia as dying on 24 Jul 1976. This is incredibly unlikely to be true... I haven't been able to identify who he actually was though, or what a correct date of death might be - no record in Vic BDM for a 1910 birth makes sense so could well have come from interstate...

Just to confirm the trail. The wiki page for ''Hec'' also noted his brother Arthur played as well. Using these 2 names we confirm a birth of a Harold Albert in 1908 to a Richard and Catherine Tangee cert 14646. Searching for Arthur brings up 2 , Cyril Arthur and Arthur William. Cyril in 1907 and Arthur in 1912. Both to the above named parents. So we have established that Hec is Harold Albert who played 20 games for Melbourne between 1930-32. ('Jimmy' Davidson and Hec are not related as this article points out http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article182148847

Harold Davidson listed as playing 4 games for North Melbourne in 1930 is said to have been born 1910. No Vic BDM , no SA BDM

I did find this which needs explaining. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189109909 talking about the Son Hearn Stars and a Morry Davidson coming from North Melbourne, yet no Morry/Maurice is listed as playing for North. A Maurice Erwin is born in 1911. Further searching ( so far) has revealed nothing

 

[35Daicos]

I did find this which needs explaining. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189109909 talking about the Son Hearn Stars and a Morry Davidson coming from North Melbourne, yet no Morry/Maurice is listed as playing for North. A Maurice Erwin is born in 1911. Further searching ( so far) has revealed nothing

There is also a permit for M. Davidson going from North Melbourne to Brunswick in 1931 (in a couple of papers). http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4380790 (25 June 1931)

No idea if it's meant to be the 1930 player. I can't find anything about where Harold Davidson came from when he joined North.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Found another piece of the puzzle - Harold Davidson (NM) was born in Scotland and later served in WWII
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?ServiceId=A&VeteranId=425954

From this it looks like his full name was just Harold Davidson

 

[Supermercado]

('Jimmy' Davidson and Hec are not related as this article points out http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article182148847

Interesting that article says Jimmy Davidson is from "South Yarra Juniors". I have him going from Walhalla to Melbourne Juniors. Maybe he was from South Yarra Juniors, and there's a confusion in that they played in the Melbourne Juniors League (at one point anyway http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75257775), but there is a Melbourne Juniors in 1921 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4699776) with no mention of a South Yarra.

 

[rbartlett]

Hi.
So Ive received document from Stephen Rodgers for missing DOB and DOD. The DOD list is large, and I might post some names in groups of 5 in future posts.
But firstly, officially with the AFL, there are 4 outstanding DOB.
I'll list them below, as listed on the spreadsheet, with the accompanying notes from Stephen written in italics

1. "Dick" Richard James Casey
Born between 25/5/1881 and 8/7/1881. Died aged 16/4/1919. Age 37 (Flu)
Whilst Col has got born between 25-5-1881 and 8-7-1881, I've actually got in my remarks born between 17-4-1881 and 9-19-1881
I did a heap of research on him years ago, and don't know where those notes are now - but seem to recall an adopted name, that could have been part of the puzzle - it may be Carrick, but again, not sure.


2. Bill J. Ahern (no birthdate or death date)
The man who was originally in our records, was born 24-6-1873 but (as was pointed out to us) this one died in NSW as a youngster,so not the right one.
In some reports of the match - Round 1- 1897, his name is spelt as Ahearn.
J. may or may not be the correct second initial. He was definitely at Preston in 1893, we've seen that in newspaper reports. He is not of course to be confused with WilliamThomas Ahern, StK 1897, born 25-6-1874, died 27-1-1920.
Steve Williamson who has been doing a lot of recent research on him think he may have been born in Ireland.

3. "Bill" William Hennington
Born between 5/11/1891 and 29/4/1892. Died 11/7/1964
Such a distinctive name but it never seemed to show up

4. "Jim" James Schellnack
Born between 25/5/1879 and 9/1/1880. Died 24/5/1968
I've often felt he was in the Records somewhere!, but with a very different spelling.

EDIT 1: I transcribed Schellnack's name incorrectly, leaving out the first c.
EDIT 2: Stephen Rodgers requested any updates/changes we come across, to collate them and then I'll submit to him at end of season - as he is pretty swamped at the moment. I'll ensure the correct people are credited with the research (if they so wished to be named).


Rhett.

 

[Harry Hook]

Re Shellnack.

His reported name is Jim Schellnack and he came from Brunswick and started at least in 1900 for them.

Cf Coburg Leader 4 August 1900
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66818901

His name in the CL is invariably spelt "Schellnack".

He also appears to have played for Brunswick in 1899

The Sportsman 19 September 1899

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228146615

Though the CL does not refer to him that year.

I cannot find a reference to a Schellnack playing football in Victoria in 1898.

A "R" Schellnack played for Heathcote (the inmportance of this comes later) in 1880.

McIvor Times and Rodney Advertiser 8 June 1911 ( a retrospective report)

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90233992


The Age places him as Shellnak , being a Brunswick recruit

Age 6 June 1904

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201664373


So Schellnack\Shellnack are one and the same.

About the name, Schellnack is far more common than Shellnak and is relatively common in Germany, suggesting a german origin.

Now to Jim Schellnack.

We can assume he started football at Brunswick in 1899 and got better.

The McIvor Times and Rodney advertiser of Heathcote ( remember that location) of 23 January 1890 has one James Schellnack as having received a prize.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90201959

A James Schellnack is referred to as a labourer in this 1911 Age report

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197387919

What links this report is that it refers to Brunswick.

Heathcote is important because one Fredrick Charles Schellnack dies at Heathcote in 1899

Cf the Age 25 June 1890 where one Ferdinand Schellnack, the son, places an in memoriam for FC Schellnack.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196963340


The wife of FC Charles also puts an in memoriam for FC Schellnack in the MT and R A of Heathcote on 26 June 1890.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90206553

Now some humour, with the research, it appears that CCatherine Schellnack in 1911 lived at 106 Wilson Street, Brunswick, and suffered badly from varicose veins.There is a pen picture of her.

The Mcivor Times and Rodney Advertiser of Heathcote of 14 April 1909

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90270214


Indeed if one searches for Schellnack at 106 Wilson Street one sees a few electoral roll references for Catherine

So the family tree of FC Schellnack, at least includes FC married to Catherine with son Ferdinand and deceased daughter Rosa.

Rosa is 14 when she dies in 1888 ( birth date 1874). The poor lass suffers from consumption.

cf the MT and RA 13 April 1888

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90205863

Also FC Schellnack was a native of Prussia and was 58 when he died in 1889(that Geman connection I mentioned earlier).


cf MT and RA 4 July 1889

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90202231

It would appear that he was a painter and decorator as this report from the MT and RA of 4 May 1888 suggests
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90202501

This report dated 27 June 1889 in relation to the death of FC Schellnack confirms his occupation and that he left a number of children.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90201984

Thie report of the Mount Alexander Mail of 4 May 1857 suggests that aFC Schellnack was resident or temporarily staying in Castlemaine.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197088631

But here is a switch up . German ancestry has Frederick Charles as being one Carl Friedrich Schellnack ( which makes sense given he was born in Prussia and probably anglicized his name).

A Ferdinand Schellnack is married to Anne and has a son Henry who dies aged 12 in 1890 (birthdate 1876) .

cf Leader 31 May 1890.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198092798

It also appears that Ferdinand married one Lusannah Settler (don't know) also had another child Catherine born in 1890 when Henry was 12.

Ferdinand ( eldest son of Charles, of Heathcote) was married to L Settler in Parramatta on 8 May 1886

cf MT and RA 18 June 1886

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90147747

Now here's the kicker. See the death notices of 10 December 1904 of the Age (off football season)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189423716

Don't look for Schellnack directly , it's not there. Look for the notice for Falconer which refers to the very sad accidental drowning deaths of 2 young children ( as a historian you sometimes gloss over this stuff but it's tragic all the same) but refers to the m being grandchildren of Catherine Schellnack of Wilson Street Brunswick (Mrs Schellnack) and nephews of FR ( Ferdinand), JC, DH, A and J, Schellnack and Mrs Dehale of Brunswick.

So Carl Friedrich Schellnack had 7 surviving children 2 of whom had the initial J.

One of these "J"s may have been John Schellnack , cf the Age 1 June 1923 ( notice Wilson Street Brunswick again)

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204064134

And Mrs Catherine Schellnack appears to have died on 9 January 1922 as the in memoriam notices of 9 January 1924 state:

The Age
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204082590


which names the children as Alex, Donald, Maggie


And here's a postcript

Fred Schellnack designed footballs.

A Sporting Globe 25 March 1939


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189144457

In short, I think our man may be the son of Carl Friedrich Schellnack, otherwise known as Frederick Charles Schellnack and Catherine Schellnack who had 2 children with the initial J.

He could easily been a John that called himself Jim or a James Schellnack (or even a Johann given his German background) and started playing VFA footy in 1899 which if he was 18, puts him at at being born anywhere from 1878 - 1882.

Hopefully the geneologists can track down the name.

 

[GreyCrow]

Ferdinand Charles/Frederick d 1889 Schellnack Catherine McDonald b c1837 d1922 (Shellnack)

Fred d1943
Ronald Schellnack 1859 d 1930
John Henry b Schellnack 1861 d Shellnack 1946
Charles Shellnack 1863- 1912
Donald Shellnack 1947 aged 82 b c1865
Henry Shellnack 1944 aged 76 b c1867/68
Mary Elizabeth Schellnack 1869 married Falconer 1889
Alexander b Schellnack 1872 d Shellnack 1928
Rosa Schellnack 1874-1888
Margaret d1959 aged 81 b c1878

The above death notice for the twins doesnt mention Ronald yet in his own death notice the family are back together. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202459566 it also says Ronald is the 2nd eldest , yet I cant ( as yet) find any Vic BDM mentions . I assume going by the twins death notice and this death notice that Fred Rogan is the eldest. ( I assumed Fred was a brother in law) . The death notice places the births in order leaving Jim till last. Which fits the above

We are also missing Margaret from the births. Margaret married a De Lisle in 1900 and dies a De Lisle in 1959 age given as 81. This fits the narrative of the death notice of Ronald of births in ascending order

In short, I think our man may be the son of Carl Friedrich Schellnack, otherwise known as Frederick Charles Schellnack and Catherine Schellnack who had 2 children with the initial J.

He could easily been a John that called himself Jim or a James Schellnack (or even a Johann given his German background) and started playing VFA footy in 1899 which if he was 18, puts him at at being born anywhere from 1878 - 1882.

Hopefully the geneologists can track down the name.

I am happy to also say this. Based on a death cert for a James Schellnack of 1968 aged 88 which states James was born to FC and Catherine in Healesville.

Family nameSCHELLNACK

Given namesJames

SexMale

Father's nameSCHELLNACK Charles

Mother's nameCatherine (Mcdonald)

Place of birthHealesville

Place of deathParkville

Age88

 

[Harry Hook]

Ferdinand Charles/Frederick d 1889 Schellnack Catherine McDonald b c1837 d1922 (Shellnack)

Fred d1943
Ronald Schellnack 1859 d 1930
John Henry b Schellnack 1861 d Shellnack 1946
Charles Shellnack 1863- 1912
Donald Shellnack 1947 aged 82 b c1865
Henry Shellnack 1944 aged 76 b c1867/68
Mary Elizabeth Schellnack 1869 married Falconer 1889
Alexander b Schellnack 1872 d Shellnack 1928
Rosa Schellnack 1874-1888
Margaret d1959 aged 81 b c1878

The above death notice for the twins doesnt mention Ronald yet in his own death notice the family are back together. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202459566 it also says Ronald is the 2nd eldest , yet I cant ( as yet) find any Vic BDM mentions . I assume going by the twins death notice and this death notice that Fred Rogan is the eldest. ( I assumed Fred was a brother in law) . The death notice places the births in order leaving Jim till last. Which fits the above

We are also missing Margaret from the births. Margaret married a De Lisle in 1900 and dies a De Lisle in 1959 age given as 81. This fits the narrative of the death notice of Ronald of births in ascending order






I am happy to also say this. Based on a death cert for a James Schellnack of 1968 aged 88 which states James was born to FC and Catherine in Healesville.

Family nameSCHELLNACK

Given namesJames

SexMale

Father's nameSCHELLNACK Charles

Mother's nameCatherine (Mcdonald)

Place of birthHealesville

Place of deathParkville

Age88

Great work on that. It also correlates with James Schellnack receiving a certificate in 1890 while at State School.

 

[35Daicos]

Four-club player Norm Le Brun is in the (AFL) records as having been born 22 April 1908 yet his army records say 24 April 1910.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6064516
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/N/Norm_Le_Brun.html
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/norm+le+brun/5070

I don't have access to genealogy records, so if anyone who does wants to look into this, please do.

 

[GreyCrow]

Four-club player Norm Le Brun is in the (AFL) records as having been born 22 April 1908 yet his army records say 24 April 1910.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6064516
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/N/Norm_Le_Brun.html
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/norm+le+brun/5070

I don't have access to genealogy records, so if anyone who does wants to look into this, please do.

My first thought was , what was the Top End age for recruitment. I knew watching The Sullivans would come in handy

Edit: Bad maths doesnt matter

Vic BDM says 1908.

Family Search also indicates 1908 baptised at Richmond

 

[35Daicos]

My first thought was , what was the Top End age for recruitment. I knew watching The Sullivans would come in handy

Yep, I did think about that, but he put "31/6 yrs" and I thought that would not be too close to the edge. This is not my area of expertise, I have not much of a clue about such things, I just noticed the discrepancy with the DOB and thought it worth mentioning!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Four-club player Norm Le Brun is in the (AFL) records as having been born 22 April 1908 yet his army records say 24 April 1910.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6064516
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/N/Norm_Le_Brun.html
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/norm+le+brun/5070

I don't have access to genealogy records, so if anyone who does wants to look into this, please do.

A few trees has him pegged for 1908 yet there's no dates for his birth in any of them.

 

[GreyCrow]

Yep, I did think about that, but he put "31/6 yrs" and I thought that would not be too close to the edge. This is not my area of expertise, I have not much of a clue about such things, I just noticed the discrepancy with the DOB and thought it worth mentioning!

From here

The age limits set for enlistment in the Second Australian Imperial Force (AIF) in 1939 were 20 to 35 for recruits, higher for officers and some NCOs. The maximum was raised to 40 in 1940, and the minimum lowered to 19 in 1941, and 18 in 1943; written parental consent was required for anyone under the age of 21. Even when the limit was lowered to 18, men of that age were not permitted to go to New Guinea or the Northern Territory.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Adding to the above, Trove gives me nothing too.

 

[the croucher]

Four-club player Norm Le Brun is in the (AFL) records as having been born 22 April 1908 yet his army records say 24 April 1910.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6064516
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/N/Norm_Le_Brun.html
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/norm+le+brun/5070

I don't have access to genealogy records, so if anyone who does wants to look into this, please do.

The Vic BDMs site shows Frank and Maria as names of parents - 1908 birth registration #14345
[as a curio - the indexing of the entry has name as Lebrun rather than Le Brun ! ]

The digital copy of the army records you link to show a Maria [James] as mother,
and other letters refer to estate of the late Francis...etc etc.

The only Le Brun/Lebrun child listed on the Vic BDMs as being registered in 1910 and 1911 is female,
and to a different couple at that !

I'm pretty convinced that 1908 is the correct date.

 

[GreyCrow]

Looking at the Soldier Enlistment notice he puts a Marie James down as next of kin

The 1908 birth of Norman Stanley Lebrun ( note no space) is to a Frank and Marie (Albress) underneath we see a death of Rachel Frances Lebrun daughter of Francis and Marie James

If it was me I would go with the 1908 date and be puzzled but not anxious of the 1910 date

Edit: Albress not Argress

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Marie (Argress)

Some of Ancestry's trees have Albress rather than Argress.

 

[GreyCrow]

Some of Ancestry's trees have Albress rather than Argress.

They do also on Vic BDM

Dont ask

 

[35Daicos]

My first thought was , what was the Top End age for recruitment. I knew watching The Sullivans would come in handy

Edit: Bad maths doesnt matter

Vic BDM says 1908.

Family Search also indicates 1908 baptised at Richmond

Thanks for that. I've just seen your "late edit" from a few posts ago! It does look like the 1908 DOB is correct, I can't really figure out why he would have put an incorrect one in when he joined the army!

 

[Harry Hook]

I wouldn't be hung up about dates of birth on enlistment forms a great deal. People often under or over stated them for any number of reasons. BDM records should be preferred in my view.

Enlistment records are better for place of birth and other corroborative data.