Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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35Daicos

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Thanks for that suggestion. I didn't really know what I was looking for there (didn't notice the link provided somehow until just then!!), but a link that came up when I searched for Sands directory gave me this (from: City of Port Phillip Heritage Review --- PPHR V24 - Volume 5 (M-R)_Part2.pdf):
Constructed c.1883
Identifier Former Residence now 'The Mansion'
Formerly Residence
Significance (Mapped as a Significant heritage property.)
The residence, now in Queens Road, was once situated with other mansions in the fashionable Queens Terrace, fronting onto Albert Park. It is an important remnant of the 1880s in Melbourne.
Description
The residence now named 'The Mansion', at 84 Queens Road, St Kilda was erected c.1883 and its original address was Queens Terrace, South Melbourne. The two storey building is devoid of excessive decoration and features arcading along two facades which terminates at a polygonal bay with arch headed windows.
These arches, together with those of the arcading and those of the remainder of the facades, dominate the composition. The roof is parapeted with balustrading and below that a cornice and row of consoles surround the building.
Intactness
The residence is substantially intact although surrounding grounds are used extensively for car parking.
 
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the croucher

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Thanks for that suggestion. I didn't really know what I was looking for there (didn't notice the link provided somehow until just then!!), but a link that came up when I searched for Sands directory gave me this (from: City of Port Phillip Heritage Review --- PPHR V24 - Volume 5 (M-R)_Part2.pdf):
Constructed c.1883
Identifier Former Residence now 'The Mansion'
Formerly Residence
Significance (Mapped as a Significant heritage property.)
The residence, now in Queens Road, was once situated with other mansions in the fashionable Queens Terrace, fronting onto Albert Park. It is an important remnant of the 1880s in Melbourne.
Description
The residence now named 'The Mansion', at 84 Queens Road, St Kilda was erected c.1883 and its original address was Queens Terrace, South Melbourne. The two storey building is devoid of excessive decoration and features arcading along two facades which terminates at a polygonal bay with arch headed windows.
These arches, together with those of the arcading and those of the remainder of the facades, dominate the composition. The roof is parapeted with balustrading and below that a cornice and row of consoles surround the building.
Intactness
The residence is substantially intact although surrounding grounds are used extensively for car parking.

...and a couple of refs from Trove newspapers:
new role for building in the mid-1950s as an army residential club
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71811357

and earlier decades with a noted judge and former Test cricketer (Moule vs Eng 1880) as a long-time resident
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204929255
 

35Daicos

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A message from Stephen Rodgers to this thread:

"Collingwood team, Round 12, 1903
In - William Spears
Out - Robert Rush
(We amended the database today.)"

fyi WhiteHartLane23 *Paul* Oliver Gigacz
Yes, that one is in the spreadsheet (#159), so obviously that can be updated. Very good of Stephen to pass on the news that it's been sorted out. I raised the issue of the Collingwood "inaccuracies" (that are mentioned in the spreadsheet) with the club's history folks recently, and received an email today from Michael Roberts (History & Archives Manager) letting me know that one had been fixed in the AFL's records.
 

35Daicos

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Thanks to the work of 35Daicos and some further work from the Blueseum the AFL records and Blueseum records have been changed for a certain player.

Inception blue, Tom Sweetman has now been changed to Charlie Sweatman.

This will take effect through all official records.

http://www.blueseum.org/Charlie+Sweatman


This was some of the proof that was used to make the case, since then the AFL has found further evidence.

-------------
There is no evidence that Thomas Sweetman played football for Carlton from 1897-99?

I have looked on Trove (only references to Sweetman with no initials) and in pennings material and cannot find anything.

On the other hand there is a fellow called Charles Herbert Sweatman.

Born in 1873 BDM record, https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/5c6dcd9b8400d822d5078eab/record/5c6545a54aba80ac312cbb1a?q=efamily&givenName=Charles Herbert&familyName=SWEATMAN

C.H. Sweetman was cleared from Carlton to Essendon Town in 1900.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9539779

He played there for a few years before being cleared to Boulder City in WA in 1905.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/89204854

Here C.H. Sweatman pictured standing next to J. Pender. Pender and 'Sweetman' played together in the Carlton backline in 1898.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206697143

1897 Sweetman at Carlton from Ascot Vale.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9156589
C. H. Sweatman from Ascot Vale.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1603755
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/160256416
This ^ important post seems to have been missed by AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com - *Paul* Oliver Gigacz
If one of the Wikipedia updaters could make the necessary changes as well that would be ideal.

This change to the official records has been made by the AFL, with Thomas Sweetman needing to be replaced by Charlie (Charles Herbert) Sweatman. The games currently attributed to Sweetman need to go to Sweatman, so there's a whole new name, DOB and DOD to be sorted out.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Sweetman.html
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Tom+Sweetman/862
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Tom_Sweetman

Blueseum has a DOB of: July 29, 1873, and says "He passed away at the age of 41 while visiting his brother in Echuca." DOD June 11 1915, according to this.

Also *Paul* as pointed out in this post, the 1897 Carlton player who has been known as Alby Patterson should be Alby Paterson.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alby_Patterson.html
 
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Oliver Gigacz

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This ^ important post seems to have been missed by AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com - *Paul* Oliver Gigacz
If one of the Wikipedia updaters could make the necessary changes as well that would be ideal.

This change to the official records has been made by the AFL, with Thomas Sweetman needing to be replaced by Charlie (Charles Herbert) Sweatman. The games currently attributed to Sweetman need to go to Sweatman, so there's a whole new name, DOB and DOD to be sorted out.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Sweetman.html
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Tom+Sweetman/862
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Tom_Sweetman

Blueseum has a DOB of: July 29, 1873, and says "He passed away at the age of 41 while visiting his brother in Echuca." DOD June 11 1915, according to this.

Also *Paul* as pointed out in this post, the 1897 Carlton player who has been known as Alby Patterson should be Alby Paterson.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alby_Patterson.html
Thanks, AF has been updated...

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Charlie Sweatman/862
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/alby+paterson/869
 

rbartlett

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Notes from SR.
Changes also now to Rd 2 1903, and Rd 7 1910.

"Round 2 :
1903


George Angus -
1 goal,
record for season: 18/3

Fred Leach -
1 game,
record for season: 7/0

Billy Spears
no game or goal,
record for season

(bearing in mind, his game in Round 12) :
6/1

Bob Rush
as we said, no game Round 12; and as already noted, no game Round 2 (which we had already),
record for season: 17/0

Photo of the typed team herewith - they were wrong too, as you can see!!
(Even though they were right, in Round 12!)

I've hand-amended that now, putting Fred Leach in the centre, and taking out Spears


1910
Round 7


game to O'Donoghue;
record for season: 9/0

no game to Jones;
record for season: 9/0

----
 

Oliver Gigacz

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Notes from SR.
Changes also now to Rd 2 1903, and Rd 7 1910.

"Round 2 :
1903


George Angus -
1 goal,
record for season: 18/3

Fred Leach -
1 game,
record for season: 7/0

Billy Spears
no game or goal,
record for season

(bearing in mind, his game in Round 12) :
6/1

Bob Rush
as we said, no game Round 12; and as already noted, no game Round 2 (which we had already),
record for season: 17/0

Photo of the typed team herewith - they were wrong too, as you can see!!
(Even though they were right, in Round 12!)

I've hand-amended that now, putting Fred Leach in the centre, and taking out Spears


1910
Round 7


game to O'Donoghue;
record for season: 9/0

no game to Jones;
record for season: 9/0

----
Thanks, AF has been updated...

R2 1903

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/456

R7 1910

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/1043
 

35Daicos

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Notes from SR.
Changes also now to Rd 2 1903, and Rd 7 1910.

"Round 2 :
1903


George Angus -
1 goal,
record for season: 18/3

Fred Leach -
1 game,
record for season: 7/0

Billy Spears
no game or goal,
record for season

(bearing in mind, his game in Round 12) :
6/1

Bob Rush
as we said, no game Round 12; and as already noted, no game Round 2 (which we had already),
record for season: 17/0

Photo of the typed team herewith - they were wrong too, as you can see!!
(Even though they were right, in Round 12!)

I've hand-amended that now, putting Fred Leach in the centre, and taking out Spears


1910
Round 7


game to O'Donoghue;
record for season: 9/0

no game to Jones;
record for season: 9/0

----
Good to see these cases get sorted out as well. They are on the spreadsheet (#200 & 210), and can now be marked as completed (along with #159).

*Paul*
 

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the croucher

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Notes from SR.
Changes also now to Rd 2 1903, and Rd 7 1910.

<snip>

1910
Round 7


game to O'Donoghue;
record for season: 9/0

no game to Jones;
record for season: 9/0

----
Mmm...interesting that O'Donoghue is credited with games in Round 6 and Round 8 and is named in team lists in The Herald for those matches, but the team list for Collingwood in Round 7 as published in The Herald includes a player named Smith, and O'Donoghue is not named at all.

What evidence has been found that now allows O'D to be credited with being in the Rnd 7 side ?
Or is it a "logical assumption" based on him being in each game before and after that one,
and that Smith - apparently - is not a name known to be connected with Collingwood during that season ?
 

35Daicos

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Mmm...interesting that O'Donoghue is credited with games in Round 6 and Round 8 and is named in team lists in The Herald for those matches, but the team list for Collingwood in Round 7 as published in The Herald includes a player named Smith, and O'Donoghue is not named at all.

What evidence has been found that now allows O'D to be credited with being in the Rnd 7 side ?
Or is it a "logical assumption" based on him being in each game before and after that one,
and that Smith - apparently - is not a name known to be connected with Collingwood during that season ?
Smith seems to have been an alias for O'Donoghue. No idea why it was used, but the papers presumably knew who the player was. The fact that Smith (who should have been making his debut) was named in the best by The Age, yet his performance wasn't deemed worthy of further comment, had to be rather odd!

There wasn't meant to be a Smith at Collingwood at the time. It was quite obvious that Jones did not play and needed to be replaced in the side. O'Donoghue was there the week before and the week after, yet he wasn't named as an 'out' for rd. 7 or an 'in' for rd. 8. The club's Annual Report listed both O'Donoghue and Jones as having played nine games for the season (not 8 and 10 as the AFL records had it). This was enough to convince the 'authorities' that the mysterious Mr Smith wasn’t in fact Jones playing under an assumed name.

This is what I posted a few months back:- This is very puzzling! While the official records have Horrie Jones playing for Collingwood in the 1910 Rd. 7 game against Richmond, he perhaps did not play, and Smith (an unknown player) may have taken his place. There must be some chance that Jones (or more likely another player) was using Smith as an alias, but I'm just not sure what to make of this!

The Herald says "Collingwood were wlthout the services of Glbb, Sadler, and Jones, who are on the injured list. Rowell, Jackson, and Harper (Port Melbourne) filled the vacancies." They name Smith in the line-up. A week later The Herald has Jones coming back into the side (vs. University) to fill one of four vacancies (no mention of Smith).

The Age names Smith as one of the best players. Given that he should have been making his debut, it's rather odd they don't mention that. The Argus (day before the game) names Jones as one of the many Collingwood players with an injury, but doesn't seem to rule him out entirely. The following Friday it says "Jones, Daykin, M'Dougall, and Heatley are training again, but they are not yet in team, though some of them may have to be pressed into the service to-morrow." The Australasian has Jones returning to the side a week later as well.

There seems to be enough evidence that Jones did not play in Rd. 7, but if Smith took his place why is nothing much said about him?! I just might be missing something simple here, so if anyone wants to dig further into this one, please go ahead!!
 

rbartlett

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Stumbled across something peculiar, but can't quite put my finger on it all yet.

Rd 1 1919- Richmond played Essendon https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1919/051419190503.html
The Argus says "W Smith, a new man and relation of the old Richmond player D Smith, played a very clever forward game, getting three goals"

Now according to AFLTables, the only Smith we had this day was Jimmy Smith, who had already played 13 games the previous two season. AND, who I'm not aware was related to any previous player D. Smith

The Herald however says "J Smith was also active as a forward , and shot down three goals, while he other attempts were so close the ball hit the post"

The Weekly Times says "For Richmond against Essendon, one of the new men , W Smith collected three goals"

The Australasian lists the new men as Threlfell, Fewster, G Weatherill, so no Smith, but at the end of the article it says "Smith ( a relation of the old Essendon footballer and Richmond cricketer)"

So my question is - is James "Jimmy" Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Smith_(Australian_rules_footballer), actually W. Smith (perhaps James is not his real first name) and is he related to Ess football and Richmond cricket D. Smith - who I assume is Dave Smith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Smith_(sportsman)
Now I know Dave Smith's father was George Smith who captain Richmond, and Dave's brother Jack Smith played for RFC 1905, but I've never really connected Jimmy Smith to this family.

Or is W. Smith an entirely new player who actually played that day instead of James "Jimmy" Smith
 

35Daicos

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Stumbled across something peculiar, but can't quite put my finger on it all yet.

Rd 1 1919- Richmond played Essendon https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1919/051419190503.html
The Argus says "W Smith, a new man and relation of the old Richmond player D Smith, played a very clever forward game, getting three goals"

Now according to AFLTables, the only Smith we had this day was Jimmy Smith, who had already played 13 games the previous two season. AND, who I'm not aware was related to any previous player D. Smith

The Herald however says "J Smith was also active as a forward , and shot down three goals, while he other attempts were so close the ball hit the post"

The Weekly Times says "For Richmond against Essendon, one of the new men , W Smith collected three goals"

The Australasian lists the new men as Threlfell, Fewster, G Weatherill, so no Smith, but at the end of the article it says "Smith ( a relation of the old Essendon footballer and Richmond cricketer)"

So my question is - is James "Jimmy" Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Smith_(Australian_rules_footballer), actually W. Smith (perhaps James is not his real first name) and is he related to Ess football and Richmond cricket D. Smith - who I assume is Dave Smith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Smith_(sportsman)
Now I know Dave Smith's father was George Smith who captain Richmond, and Dave's brother Jack Smith played for RFC 1905, but I've never really connected Jimmy Smith to this family.

Or is W. Smith an entirely new player who actually played that day instead of James "Jimmy" Smith
His proper name appears to be Cyril James Smith. That is what AustralianFootball.com has - it also has Known as Jimmy Smith. The Encyclopedia has him as Cyril James 'Jimmy' Smith, and it adds "Smith was related to Essendon's Dave Smith".

The records have: Date of birth 25 January 1899 - Date of death 11 January 1974 for a DOB & DOD. This is what Vic BDM has that seems to go with that, but the discrepancy with the father's name is rather strange!:
1555599482954.png

This article from 1918 says "Jimmy Smith, a brother of "Pop" Smith, the Richmond cricketer'". This suggests the Richmond cricketer (known as "Pop") was L. Smith. I'd say it's just possible someone got mixed up over the family connection as there were the two Smith's playing for Richmond cricket club at about the same time, and both were star players. Yet, Jimmy may well have been related to both "Pop" and Dave, and Dave may have been a cousin perhaps?

This would be the birth reg. for Dave Smith (so obviously not a brother to Jimmy Smith):
1555604155555.png

1555610133190.png

And this ^ is the reg. for his brother Jack, who played for Richmond (VFA).

I have no idea where the papers in 1919 got the W. Smith from - surely it's just an error?! Why they thought he was new when he should have been in his third season is hard to figure out! Since he was credited with scoring three goals it's hardly likely he wouldn't have stayed in the side, so I suspect they just got the name wrong for that game!
 
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rbartlett

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Thanks 35Daicos for your research on that.
Looking at 1919 RFC AR - it lists 35 players for the season, = AFL Tables. J. Smith is the only Smith.
I think you are right, W. Smith is J. Smith. Not sure why they would say he is a new player.

As for "Pop Smith", I think I've may have found more evidence.
In 1914, this says that for the Melbourne FC: "Pop Smith" from Richmond District, may be given a run against StKilda".

AFLTables corresponding match for Rd 4 1914 shows a Les Smith debuting for Melbourne. (Which corresponds to the "L Smith" from your earlier post)
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1914/111519140516.html

Les Smith was born 16 March 1892 - 8 April 1968 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Smith_(footballer,_born_1892) (that's if those birth/death details are right)
Did he perhaps play for Richmond Cricket a few years later? And still playing for Court Robin Hood in the mid 1930s and 1932

So if we check BDM details and see if Les Smith's details correspond to Cyril James Smith details - that would be the connection.
But , I'm not sure whats going on with BDM these days. I get to a login/register page each time I go to search for BDM. They must have changed their access?

Edit:
A death notice for Leslie Alexander Smith appeared in The Age 9 April 1968, page 18. Says he was married to Agnes, son Kenyon, father in law etc... no mention of a brother Cyril James (who was still alive at that stage).
So either the Les Smith for Melbourne isnt later the same Richmond cricketer, and Im down the wrong rabbit hole.
Or, he is the cricketer and simply not related to Cyril Smith
Or, he is the cricketer and is related to Cyril Smith and Les' birth/death details are wrong.
 
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35Daicos

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Thanks 35Daicos for your research on that.
Looking at 1919 RFC AR - it lists 35 players for the season, = AFL Tables. J. Smith is the only Smith.
I think you are right, W. Smith is J. Smith. Not sure why they would say he is a new player.

As for "Pop Smith", I think I've may have found more evidence.
In 1914, this says that for the Melbourne FC: "Pop Smith" from Richmond District, may be given a run against StKilda".

AFLTables corresponding match for Rd 4 1914 shows a Les Smith debuting for Melbourne. (Which corresponds to the "L Smith" from your earlier post)
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1914/111519140516.html

Les Smith was born 16 March 1892 - 8 April 1968 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Smith_(footballer,_born_1892) (that's if those birth/death details are right)
Did he perhaps play for Richmond Cricket a few years later? And still playing for Court Robin Hood in the mid 1930s and 1932

So if we check BDM details and see if Les Smith's details correspond to Cyril James Smith details - that would be the connection.
But , I'm not sure whats going on with BDM these days. I get to a login/register page each time I go to search for BDM. They must have changed their access?

Edit:
A death notice for Leslie Alexander Smith appeared in The Age 9 April 1968, page 18. Says he was married to Agnes, son Kenyon, father in law etc... no mention of a brother Cyril James (who was still alive at that stage).
So either the Les Smith for Melbourne isnt later the same Richmond cricketer, and Im down the wrong rabbit hole.
Or, he is the cricketer and simply not related to Cyril Smith
Or, he is the cricketer and is related to Cyril Smith and Les' birth/death details are wrong.
With Vic BDM in recent weeks I've had issues as well, but I can always get it to work. When I click on Search our records now for the first time it almost never brings anything up. I then repeat the process (from the start by clicking on the url) and up comes the search page and it works fine.

This should be the Melbourne player's details:
1555638809845.png

1555638792995.png

Different family, it seems!
 
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rbartlett

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Okay, back to the drawing board then to find who L "Pop Smith is for Richmond cricket.
I'll go check out the history of the Richmond Cricket Club book by Frank Tyson

I'll also do the reverse. If I can find Cyril James Smith death notice circa January 11 1974 , that may list any surviving brothers (and maybe a L Smith)
 
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35Daicos

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Okay, back to the drawing board then to find who L "Pop Smith is for Richmond cricket.
I'll go check out the history of the Richmond Cricket Club book by Frank Tyson
This chap just might be the L. Smith who played for Richmond CC. No doubt he's a brother to Jimmy:
1555639763477.png
 

rbartlett

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And that would explain the "L. Smith" The old-called-by-your-middle-name trick.
I couldn't see Cyril's death notice in Ryerson for Jan 1974. But he did die that year as per RFC AR.
So that mean's Jimmy Smith isnt a direct relation to Dave Smith at all.
 
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35Daicos

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And that would explain the "L. Smith" The old-called-by-your-middle-name trick.
I couldn't see Cyril's death notice in Ryerson for Jan 1974. But he did die that year as per RFC AR.
So that mean's Jimmy Smith isnt a direct relation to Dave Smith at all.
L. Smith was a new player (joining from V.J.C.A.) at Richmond CC in October 1909: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241944222

This has L. Smith and J. Smith in Richmond cricket teams in 1918. I think Dave Smith had gone by that time.
 

the croucher

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Well done, Rhett & Daics !
There's been a wealth of good research in your recent posts about the various Smith's.

Now we all look back on it, writing from a purely sport history aspect,
'tis a pity that Australia hadn't preserved individual Census records of century past, like the UK & USA have.

Tracing individual soccer and cricket players of pre-WW2 era is all the easier due to the UK 1939 National Register
having exact birthdates and full names listed.
 

rbartlett

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rbartlett

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35Daicos do you know if the League keeps tracks of Club Officials list.
So if there's a change to Pres/Sec/Treasurer entries - do they want to know about that? Or is that more in-house at clubs WhiteHartLane23
 
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35Daicos

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35Daicos do you know if the League keeps tracks of Club Officials list.
So if there's a change to Pres/Sec/Treasurer entries - do they want to know about that? Or is that more in-house at clubs
I don't know for sure how much of those details they would keep track of, but they do still include lists of the clubs' President/Chairman and Gen. Manager/CEO from (about) 1980 onwards in the Season Guide, so they probably do wish to know of any changes to the records (even from earlier days). Perhaps somebody else knows more and can chime in?
 
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