Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

the croucher

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I don't know for sure how much of those details they would keep track of, but they do still include lists of the clubs' President/Chairman and Gen. Manager/CEO from (about) 1980 onwards in the Season Guide, so they probably do wish to know of any changes to the records (even from earlier days). Perhaps somebody else knows more and can chime in?
Suspect it is hit and miss whether anyone at AFL House and club boardroom tables can be bothered, but I'm not going to let that get me down (too much, ha ha), and will continue to promote and share new info found. Trove (up to mid-50s) and other online sources for later papers will probably confirm that previously published lists of names and positions are pretty accurate.

It is the inconsistent way the history lists are handled that really bugs me !

The 2019 Season Guide has for nine of the twelve long-standing VFL clubs admin lists which start in 1980,
but for some inexplicable reason at pages for Geelong, Sydney and W Bulldogs the lists start in 1985.

The Sydney Swans website only shows honour roll since 1971 (none of Skilton's 9 B&F's shown),
and my requests to staff at the club to have that extended back to full VFL era just get ignored.

The list of long-serving club execs on Season Guide page 1208 contains at least two errors,
both of which were reported directly to the editor and history team some years ago yet remain uncorrected.

As has been noted on our spreadsheet for some months too, there are mistakes in names and dates of coaches which still remain uncorrected.

I acknowledge that some of our efforts with the research shared via this thread and similar ones have been recognised
and led to "official" corrections, but it is frustrating to see the high number on the spreadsheet that have been ignored.
 

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35Daicos

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Suspect it is hit and miss whether anyone at AFL House and club boardroom tables can be bothered, but I'm not going to let that get me down (too much, ha ha), and will continue to promote and share new info found. Trove (up to mid-50s) and other online sources for later papers will probably confirm that previously published lists of names and positions are pretty accurate.

It is the inconsistent way the history lists are handled that really bugs me !

The 2019 Season Guide has for nine of the twelve long-standing VFL clubs admin lists which start in 1980,
but for some inexplicable reason at pages for Geelong, Sydney and W Bulldogs the lists start in 1985.


The Sydney Swans website only shows honour roll since 1971 (none of Skilton's 9 B&F's shown),
and my requests to staff at the club to have that extended back to full VFL era just get ignored.

The list of long-serving club execs on Season Guide page 1208 contains at least two errors,
both of which were reported directly to the editor and history team some years ago yet remain uncorrected.

As has been noted on our spreadsheet for some months too, there are mistakes in names and dates of coaches which still remain uncorrected.

I acknowledge that some of our efforts with the research shared via this thread and similar ones have been recognised
and led to "official" corrections, but it is frustrating to see the high number on the spreadsheet that have been ignored.
When I first posted that it said "from 1980", then I noticed the Geelong entry starts from 1985, and amended it to say "from (about) 1980"! I've no idea why it's shown that way with just a few of the clubs - it doesn't make sense!

There are still so many things we need to get changed in the official records, but not enough is happening. It's very frustrating. Apart from making sure the scores in all games are 100% correct, nothing should be more important than getting the right players in team line-ups (and that they're correctly identified in terms of name and DOB). This doesn't seem to be a priority with the AFL folks, and they seem to prefer to/or have to focus on other projects. I think if somebody comes to them and says "I'm quite sure a change is needed in the records from a game in e.g. 1905" they should welcome it as a chance to make an important change, rather than see it as an unwelcome interruption to what they're doing!
 
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the croucher

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Hmm.... was doing some research on Percy Page (Richmond/Melbourne official).
My counting may be slightly off but am I right to say judging from this family tree - Percy Pembrooke Page's great great great great grand uncle was Captain Cook. http://www.winthrop.dk/cooktree/gp1194.html
Yes, Rhett. If that tree proves to be accurate then Capt Cook was indeed a 4x great-uncle of Page !!

What an interesting find.
 
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35Daicos

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Hmm.... was doing some research on Percy Page (Richmond/Melbourne official).
My counting may be slightly off but am I right to say judging from this family tree - Percy Pembrooke Page's great great great great grand uncle was Captain Cook. http://www.winthrop.dk/cooktree/gp1194.html
998 posts - spread over 15 years!
Yes, Rhett. If that tree proves to be accurate then Capt Cook was indeed a 4x great-uncle of Page !!

What an interesting find.
999 posts - spread over 19 years!

Interesting juxtaposition! Can't wait to see who gets to the 1,000 mark first!!
 

rbartlett

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Just want to get off my chest that the AFL , Broadcasters Ch7 and Fox Footy and the press continue to deliberate ignore all previous games played on Anzac Day prior to 1995.
Posts, stories , stats all about 'Most Goals on Anzac Day', 'Most Brownlow Votes', 'The very first Anzac Day match in 1995' is simply wrong.
And DELIBERATELY ignores the game's connection to that day in the past.

- Rant over.-
 

the croucher

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Just want to get off my chest that the AFL , Broadcasters Ch7 and Fox Footy and the press continue to deliberate ignore all previous games played on Anzac Day prior to 1995.
Posts, stories , stats all about 'Most Goals on Anzac Day', 'Most Brownlow Votes', 'The very first Anzac Day match in 1995' is simply wrong.
And DELIBERATELY ignores the game's connection to that day in the past.

- Rant over.-
But entirely justified !
 

ThePope

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Just want to get off my chest that the AFL , Broadcasters Ch7 and Fox Footy and the press continue to deliberate ignore all previous games played on Anzac Day prior to 1995.
Posts, stories , stats all about 'Most Goals on Anzac Day', 'Most Brownlow Votes', 'The very first Anzac Day match in 1995' is simply wrong.
And DELIBERATELY ignores the game's connection to that day in the past.

- Rant over.-
Also ignores the other games also played on Anzac Day since 1995. Freo have played 11 times on Anzac Day, all with their own Len Hall memorial ceremony held before hand.
 

Strauchanside

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Not sure if this is relevant here, but I will ask anyway. On Sir Doug Nicholls' wikipedia page, it mentions he finished third in the 1934 Brownlow Medal. However, in AFL Tables it only lists him as having polled six votes that season. Yet, the total Brownlow votes in his career, despite being 5 in 1933 and 6 in 1934, somehow totals 22? If he had polled 17 votes in 1934, he would have finished equal third with Jack Regan, Keith Shea and Jack Martin, and thus also would equal the 22 votes AFL Tables currently lists him as polling.
 

*Paul*

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The total is wrong, should be 11. I have some better data for some early 30s Medals, which I'd started working on but haven't finished. I'd hadn't realised that that fiddling had mucked up the totals i.e. counted them twice.
 

35Daicos

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Not sure if this is relevant here, but I will ask anyway. On Sir Doug Nicholls' wikipedia page, it mentions he finished third in the 1934 Brownlow Medal. However, in AFL Tables it only lists him as having polled six votes that season. Yet, the total Brownlow votes in his career, despite being 5 in 1933 and 6 in 1934, somehow totals 22? If he had polled 17 votes in 1934, he would have finished equal third with Jack Regan, Keith Shea and Jack Martin, and thus also would equal the 22 votes AFL Tables currently lists him as polling.
Paul has just covered this nicely, but I'll post this anyway (since it was ready to go)!

It seems they have it wrong on his Wikipedia page. He's not mentioned here, and the AFL Season Guide doesn't have him as one of the leading votegetters for 1934 (13 votes or higher). Here you can see the votes from The Argus, showing Nicholls on 6: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10970124 || https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/562380
 

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the croucher

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Cannot find that this has been mentioned previously on BigFooty, so here goes:

Whilst cross-checking club captains in the AFL Season Guide (and finding numerous errors to be detailed in a separate post later)
I believe I have found another mistake to be corrected in VFL player lists.
R Wardill did not play in Rnd 1 1901 for Melbourne
https://australianfootball.com/game/view/308

The Argus 6 May 1901 p11 “Wardill’s absence”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10549284

Geelong Advertiser 6 May 1901 p3 “in the absence of Wardill”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/147721867

this report mentions two names Shaw and Lewis that do not appear in official records as being players in that game,
there is a Billy Shaw and an Austin Lewis who play other matches in 1901 for Melbourne


The Age 6 May 1901 p5
“the only notable absentee being the captain (Wardill) who was attending the funeral of a relative”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190037932

Unfortunately The Herald issue on match day shown on Trove is not the final edition, so team lists haven't yet been found.

Clear that Wardill did not play, but think "unknown" will have to be listed for time being as it is not clear who replaced him.
 

35Daicos

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Cannot find that this has been mentioned previously on BigFooty, so here goes:

Whilst cross-checking club captains in the AFL Season Guide (and finding numerous errors to be detailed in a separate post later)
I believe I have found another mistake to be corrected in VFL player lists.
R Wardill did not play in Rnd 1 1901 for Melbourne
https://australianfootball.com/game/view/308

The Argus 6 May 1901 p11 “Wardill’s absence”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10549284

Geelong Advertiser 6 May 1901 p3 “in the absence of Wardill”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/147721867

this report mentions two names Shaw and Lewis that do not appear in official records as being players in that game,
there is a Billy Shaw and an Austin Lewis who play other matches in 1901 for Melbourne


The Age 6 May 1901 p5
“the only notable absentee being the captain (Wardill) who was attending the funeral of a relative”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190037932

Unfortunately The Herald issue on match day shown on Trove is not the final edition, so team lists haven't yet been found.

Clear that Wardill did not play, but think "unknown" will have to be listed for time being as it is not clear who replaced him.
From Google News Archive (The Herald 4 May 1901):

1558969575570.png

Unfortunately this leaves out the Forward line!! That still makes it tricky! The match report mentions Leith, who is not named in the team above, so he must have been one of the three forwards. That leaves two names to find, and one of them is bound to be the player who replaced Wardill!! Ryan is meant to be in the side, but not one of the 15 named in The Herald side, or in the match report. The 15 players named in The Herald lineup along with Leith are all named in the official team. I can't spot another name in the match report that isn't supposed to be there.

Note the starting time as well (not 3.00 PM).

Melbourne's round two game was on the following Thursday, and with a bit of luck a paper or two might name the ins and outs.
 
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35Daicos

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This has probably been looked into at some stage, but I'll plonk it here anyway!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11815216 (10 May 1944)
1559146668168.png

Any idea on this Percy Ellingsen claim Rhett?
rbartlett

Okay, his birth was registered in 1895 (18-07-1895 is meant to be the DOB) so it seems he was mistaken/telling fibs, as he had to have been at least 16 when he debuted in 1912!:
1559148099094.png
 
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ThePope

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There is a birth record for 1895 which matches the 18 July 1895 DOB we have, which puts his debut in June 1912 at almost 17, not just over 15.
1895; 17759; Ellingsen Percy; Conrad; Bourke Ann Charlotte; Ballarat

There is a marriage record for
1914; 7547; Ellingsen Percy; Ryan Anastasia; Geelong

His obituary, however, in 1947, says he was 54, so that's an 1893 birth (and almost 19 when he made his debut). Buried in Geelong.
EllingsenPercy 12 May 1947 EAS-PRES-09-807-313 Geelong Eastern Cemetery


Was in the armed forces, arrested for being AWOL, ... but not much in the national records, except a WW2 record saying date of birth 1895.

So, nothing to back up his story.
 

35Daicos

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There is a birth record for 1895 which matches the 18 July 1895 DOB we have, which puts his debut in June 1912 at almost 17, not just over 15.
1895; 17759; Ellingsen Percy; Conrad; Bourke Ann Charlotte; Ballarat

There is a marriage record for
1914; 7547; Ellingsen Percy; Ryan Anastasia; Geelong

His obituary, however, in 1947, says he was 54, so that's an 1893 birth (and almost 19 when he made his debut).

Was in the armed forces, arrested for being AWOL, ... but not much in the national records, except a WW2 record saying date of birth 1895.

So, nothing to back up his story.
Yep, thanks for that. I had already updated my post after checking Vic BDM and it's clear there is nothing at all to back up the story. Wonder why he said that?!
 

rbartlett

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I've never heard that claim before until it was posted by 35Daicos.
As per your subsequent post - it seems as though he has dates/and age slightly askew and wasn't anywhere near 15yrs of age at the time
 

rbartlett

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For those who don't know, my digitisation of the Richmond Guardian 1913-1916 is complete, and now online at Trove. (took 7 mths from day of payment to being online).

Of course its going to reveal extra information of the club's history etc etc.
Straight away I came across this article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254633056 talking about the Cole family who had a father and four sons at war.
It says that 'Tom Cole, was born in Richmond, and a prominent football club supporter' and his brother Joe played "with the team for years".

Now I don't have a Cole playing League football or VFA football for the club. We do have Jack Coles, who played 3 games in 1909.
I'm not suggesting that Jack Coles and Joe Cole are the same person (the RFC Annual Report says 'Coles' played in 1909) - but I just want to put this here incase anyone stumbles across Tom Cole RFC connection, or Jack Cole RFC connection (I do notice a J. Cole is playing cricket for the Richmond Footballers in 1913-1914 era). The solution may be that they were connected to a junior side in the Richmond area, not the Senior team.

Cheers.
 

35Daicos

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For those who don't know, my digitisation of the Richmond Guardian 1913-1916 is complete, and now online at Trove. (took 7 mths from day of payment to being online).

Of course its going to reveal extra information of the club's history etc etc.
Straight away I came across this article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254633056 talking about the Cole family who had a father and four sons at war.
It says that 'Tom Cole, was born in Richmond, and a prominent football club supporter' and his brother Joe played "with the team for years".

Now I don't have a Cole playing League football or VFA football for the club. We do have Jack Coles, who played 3 games in 1909.
I'm not suggesting that Jack Coles and Joe Cole are the same person (the RFC Annual Report says 'Coles' played in 1909) - but I just want to put this here incase anyone stumbles across Tom Cole RFC connection, or Jack Cole RFC connection (I do notice a J. Cole is playing cricket for the Richmond Footballers in 1913-1914 era). The solution may be that they were connected to a junior side in the Richmond area, not the Senior team.

Cheers.
Richmond had a J. Coles playing for them in 1891-93 according to Pennings Vol. 4. I see Tigerland Archive has Jim Coles playing from 1888-93. Despite the doubt about the name, probably still a good chance that he's the brother referred to, especially as he played for quite a few years.

The Tom Cole mentioned in that article had a 25yo son in 1916 (born c. 1891) so he might have been born around 1860-70, and reasonable to think the brother Joe would have been born around then too. The Jack Coles who played in Richmond's VFL days was born in 1886, so obviously not much chance that he would be the brother of Tom.

This should be the birth reg. for the brothers:
1559218504156.png


1559218543243.png


This is puzzling, because the 1888-93 player always seems to be known as Coles, so could the papers have had the name wrong all the time? I can't see who else that article could have been referring to other than that player!
 
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Gibbsy

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For those who don't know, my digitisation of the Richmond Guardian 1913-1916 is complete, and now online at Trove. (took 7 mths from day of payment to being online).

Of course its going to reveal extra information of the club's history etc etc.
Straight away I came across this article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254633056 talking about the Cole family who had a father and four sons at war.
It says that 'Tom Cole, was born in Richmond, and a prominent football club supporter' and his brother Joe played "with the team for years".

Now I don't have a Cole playing League football or VFA football for the club. We do have Jack Coles, who played 3 games in 1909.
I'm not suggesting that Jack Coles and Joe Cole are the same person (the RFC Annual Report says 'Coles' played in 1909) - but I just want to put this here incase anyone stumbles across Tom Cole RFC connection, or Jack Cole RFC connection (I do notice a J. Cole is playing cricket for the Richmond Footballers in 1913-1914 era). The solution may be that they were connected to a junior side in the Richmond area, not the Senior team.

Cheers.
A very generous donation Rhett, thanks for your hard work and I hope you find plenty of benefit from it.
 

rbartlett

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This is puzzling, because the 1888-93 player always seems to be known as Coles, so could the papers have had the name wrong all the time? I can't see who else that article could have been referring to other than that player!
It has crossed my mind if Cole and Coles is the same person, but the press does always call him Coles in the VFA years.
I can't find the connection they are the same person. So I'll put it down in my 'unsolved book'
 

rbartlett

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Need some guidance on this. With digitisation of Rich Guardian I've found that T. O'Brien our VP in 1913 was
Thomas (Tom) C. O'Brien. - proprietor of the Swan Hotel, in Richmond.

The 1921 RFC AR says 'Tom O'Brien, who also died earlier in the year under very sad circumstances was with us for only a short period, but made himself very popular during his term of office and was a good worker in the Club's welfare, and his tragic death at such an early age is very sincerely regretted".

I'm thinking they are both the same person, as I cant see any other Tom O'Brien for Richmond at that stage - but I can't for the life of me find his death notice, or anything on Trove about this death.
 

35Daicos

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Need some guidance on this. With digitisation of Rich Guardian I've found that T. O'Brien our VP in 1913 was
Thomas (Tom) C. O'Brien. - proprietor of the Swan Hotel, in Richmond.

The 1921 RFC AR says 'Tom O'Brien, who also died earlier in the year under very sad circumstances was with us for only a short period, but made himself very popular during his term of office and was a good worker in the Club's welfare, and his tragic death at such an early age is very sincerely regretted".

I'm thinking they are both the same person, as I cant see any other Tom O'Brien for Richmond at that stage - but I can't for the life of me find his death notice, or anything on Trove about this death.
1559387852917.png

1559387904561.png

Perhaps it could be one of these men? Thomas Coleman O'Brien would be a match for the name, but might have been a bit young (at c. 28 in 1913) to be running a pub. He died November 28 1921, so that doesn't seem to fit either. He accidentally drowned, so that may well be the tragic death (at an early age) referred to: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4616265

There's a death notice for a Thomas in June 1921 (aged 59 - so probably the one who died at Prahran), but it looks like he worked for the railways.
 
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rbartlett

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Perhaps it could be one of these men? Thomas Coleman O'Brien would be a match for the name, but might have been a bit young (at c. 28 in 1913) to be running a pub. He died November 28 1921, so that doesn't seem to fit either. He accidentally drowned, so that may well be the tragic death (at an early age) referred to: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4616265

There's a death notice for a Thomas in June 1921 (aged 59 - so probably the one who died at Prahran), but it looks like he worked for the railways.
My BDM search was obv playing up as I couldnt see any of those deaths - so apologies for that.
This in-depth obit of the drowned Thomas Coleman O'Brien makes no reference of Richmond or Swan Hotel. So still not sure if it is him.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60205231

UPDATE: This from 1914 says he is now up in Sydney http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254623852, perhaps training with Herb McCoy (boxer), or having some connection with him
Not sure if he stayed there, but perhaps he died in NSW somewhere
 
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