Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

The Herald review of the 1944 PF says that "the start was about 8 minutes late".
So we should consider changing the start time to 2.38pm
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article246020490

 

[rbartlett]

fyi I've added the croucher to be able to edit the AFL spreadsheet along with myself and WHL.

 

[Supermercado]

Another update to the Melbourne numbers. Paul Payne is generally shown as #19 for all of 1986. He actually played in #43 until Round 17, then switched to #19 (previously occupied by Rodney Wright for two games earlier in the year) and mid-season recruit Len Gandini took #43. God knows why they went to the trouble instead of just sticking with the original numbers. Correction sent to AFL Tables, other outlets please note.

 

[rbartlett]

Update regarding Bert James dod details.
Made contact with his son - who is Max James - the Port Adelaide and South Melbourne player.
He confirmed the death details were all correct except the year - Bert died in 1992, not 1991.

Bert James (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can wiki please be updated by someone. Fyi also to Oliver Gigacz

Edit: son not father.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Update regarding Bert James dod details.
Made contact with his father - who is Max James - the Port Adelaide and South Melbourne player.
He confirmed the death details were all correct except the year - Bert died in 1992, not 1991.

Bert James (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can wiki please be updated by someone. Fyi also to Oliver Gigacz

Don't you mean Bert James was Max' dad and therefore the grandfather of Heath?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Update regarding Bert James dod details.
Made contact with his son - who is Max James - the Port Adelaide and South Melbourne player.
He confirmed the death details were all correct except the year - Bert died in 1992, not 1991.

Bert James (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can wiki please be updated by someone. Fyi also to Oliver Gigacz

Edit: son not father.

Also, does December 4 stay as date of death with corrected year of death?

 

[rbartlett]

Also, does December 4 stay as date of death with corrected year of death?

Yes everything was correct, except the year

 

[rbartlett]

Query: When KB kicked his 7th goal in the 1980 GF, the commentators make reference several times that he had 'equal the record of the most goals in a Grand Final.' Yet Coventry had kicked 9 goals in the 1928 GF. Did the commentators not have that info? I dont believe 1928 GF was a 'right to challenge' match , it was just a standard Grand Final -so it would have counted

 

[35Daicos]

Query: When KB kicked his 7th goal in the 1980 GF, the commentators make reference several times that he had 'equal the record of the most goals in a Grand Final.' Yet Coventry had kicked 9 goals in the 1928 GF. Did the commentators not have that info? I dont believe 1928 GF was a 'right to challenge' match , it was just a standard Grand Final -so it would have counted

When Dermott Brereton kicked 8 goals in the 1985 Grand Final it was also described as a record (from The Age):






Also from The Age (four years later):


I can remember Ablett's 1989 effort being talked about as the Grand Final record, and have no idea why Coventry's 1928 haul was ignored/forgotten!

 

[stemline]

I have vague memories as a kid that these records were clarified as being 'post-war' records.

Like we have the term the 'modern-era', back in the eighties it was 'post war'.

 

[Bassoon]

I think it comers down to the Page System of Finals i.e. 1931

 

[killer]

Maybe, they just looked it up in a book



I recall the commentator (landy??) repeating the this factoid over and over during the game
but not heard it since

No author given on the book.
Who was the VFL equivalent of SA stats guru Ern kolosche at the time?

 

[35Daicos]

Maybe, they just looked it up in a book

View attachment 750639

I recall the commentator (landy??) repeating the this factoid over and over during the game
but not heard it since

No author given on the book.
Who was the VFL equivalent of SA stats guru Ern kolosche at the time?

That book was put out by the VFL:

 

[35Daicos]

This is from the 1993 (AFL) Media Guide (forerunner to today's Season Guide):


It omits Gordon Coventry's 9 (1928) and 7 goal (1930) hauls. The same list of players was shown in AFL '96, the first of the (modern) Season Guide's.

The book now includes those two hauls by Coventry, plus 7 goals from J. Dunstall (1988) and S. Kernahan (1993). The 2003 Season Guide appears to be the first that includes Coventry's 9 goal haul on this list, though it left off his 1930 7 goal performance, and the Dunstall one from 1988.

 

[Gibbsy]

This is from the 1993 (AFL) Media Guide (forerunner to today's Season Guide):
View attachment 750815

It omits Gordon Coventry's 9 (1928) and 7 goal (1930) hauls. The same list of players was shown in AFL '96, the first of the (modern) Season Guide's.

The book now includes those two hauls by Coventry, plus 7 goals from J. Dunstall (1988) and S. Kernahan (1993). The 2003 Season Guide appears to be the first that includes Coventry's 9 goal haul on this list, though it left off his 1930 7 goal performance, and the Dunstall one from 1988.

It’s weird how the title refers to there only seemingly being “Grand Finals” from 1931 onwards, but refers to a postponement from 1923

 

[35Daicos]

It’s weird how the title refers to there only seemingly being “Grand Finals” from 1931 onwards, but refers to a postponement from 1923

Yes, for sure. I also found it a bit odd that the article in The Age (1985) did mention Coventry's effort (from 1930) among the 7 goal hauls. Why include that but not the 1928 performance?! Very puzzling indeed!

 

[killer]

Sporting Globe article on coventry and 1928 gf
next to impossible to read

Gordon Coventry Tells How - One Man Won a Premiership - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 2 Jul 1938

Everybody realises that the first essential of clubs aspiring to premiership honors is team work. To claim that one individual wen a ...

trove.nla.gov.au

By GORDON COVENTRY as told to J. M. Rohan

Everybody realises that the first essential of clubs aspiring to premiership honors is team work. To claim for that one individual won a premiership will be hard for reconcile with the team work argument, but champion goalkicker Gordon Coventry makes this claim on behalf of his old comrade, Percy Rowe. Collingwood had run into a bad patch and had all the luck in the world to win through to the 1928 final. They had to meet Richmond, who were firm favourites. Collingwood had to think hard. A plan was adopted with Rowe playing the part of heavy villain. "He won the pennant for Collingwood lone handed," says Coventry. No one knows the value of work better than I do. The wonderful team work of Collingwood for all the years I was with the club gave me the opportunities that that resulted in my getting my goals Yet despite that admission, I give the credit to one individual for winning a match-and an important one at that. It was the premiership of 1928. The efforts of Collingwood that day would have been wasted only for the Herculean task Rowe preformed. No player in that side will differ from me when I say that Rowe gave the finest match winning effort ever seen He made victory possible for Collingwood by staging one of the grandest exhibitions of shepherding.

No Counter

It was a surprise that the Tigers had no counter for It came about this way. Collingwood slumped badly at the end of the 1928 home and away matches. Players seemed to have gone stale. And I was the worst of the bunch. I was failing to play my part, and it was more good luck than good play that kept the Magpies in the running. I had 'flu coming on me when Collingwood played Melbourne in the second semi-final. I scarcely got a touch all day. The game was one of those scrambling ones that was not helped by the weather condition. Perhaps the result was the most satisfactory under the circumstances, as everyone seemed happy when the score board showed points level at the final bell It was a near thing, and I thought Warne-Smith's men should have won the day. Drawn games are rare in semi-finals. The replay attracted a large crowd, but again a disappointing game was provided. I was as weak as a kitten and should not have been playing. I missed chance after chance, while I was just swept off my feet in the crushes. The final bell was music to me that day. and I could not take any credit for Collingwood winning by four points. Again they were lucky. Our two fluky games against Melbourne gave us the right to challenge If beaten by Richmond in the final. The challenge was not necessary. Collingwood held a council of war and decided that they could outplay the Tigers.

It was only a matter of my being able to kick goals to bring victory, said the wise men of the club. After training on the Thursday before the final I reported myself as feeling much better. It would not have surprised me had I been dropped, but all chance I of being an onlooker disappeared when Percy Rowe had his say.

"No One Will Touch Him All Day"

"Allow me to play in a forward pocket alongside Nuts and I’ll guarantee no one lays a finger on him all day." said no Rowe with enough aggressiveness to carry conviction. Rowe was a man of few words, and one of the strongest players I have known.

It was agreed that all should bang the ball on to me no matter how I was hemmed in I was wondering how it would work out It certainly looked all right on paper

Disposing of Carlton, Richmond were firm favourites for the final the light rain that fell for the final. The light rain that fell did not keep 50,000 from seeing the match. Which was a football thriller. As we were going out on to the ground Rowe trotted with me and said Nuts of you don’t break the record for goals kicked In a final I won't speak to you again." I guess the Richmond backline will have a say." was my rejoinder "When I’m finished with the Richmond backs «hey will be wondering what fell on them, was the last I heard from Rowe before the ball was bounced.

From then on till the end of the first quarter I wondered how it was that I had taken several marks without receiving a knock or a bump. It all appeared so strange to me. Of course, I couldn’t see what was happening behind me. but was soon enlightened. Bill Libbis told me that Rowe was making some awful faces behind my back and that the tigers didn’t like it. It was the same in the second, third and final quarter. I kicked nine goals to break the league record to that time and never finished a game so fresh

At the half time break interval, I saw that Rowe was black and blue I realised that he was doing the work of a trojan leading out and going up for marks. And he was opposed to some husky young fellows. Jack Bisset, George Rudolph and Donald Don were a few of the player, he blocked and bumped every time they tried to get near me. Rowe ignored the ball all through, devoting his time and energy to make my task a sinecure

He did the work of two men. He disorganized the Richmond back line all day. By stepping in front of a man or bumping him my movements were unhampered. And my with one sore shoulder, Rowe had to manoeuvre for position before tackling the Tigers .

The more frayed the tempers of the backmen became the more Rowe grinned. He received some jolts and jars but picked himself up and fought on though nothing had happened. I told, him to let a few of the bumps come my way as I was fresh as a daisy but all her said was Its my "It's mv intention that you get out of this game without a bruise. So carry on and don’t argue"

Rowe’s performance was revelation No one thought it possible for one man to shoulder such a burden but Rowe thought lightly of it, he said that the Richmond players had two elusive things to look after the ball and Coventry All George had to do was keep an eye on the man nearest to me when the ball was in my vicinity

Can be brought to a level

Rowe often laughed over the incident, and said that he didn’t care how brilliant a footballer was he could he could be brought down to a level if watched carefully by an opponent . It will be remembered that Les Jones completely nullified the efforts of Haydn Bunton in two games in which Fitzroy played Melbourne. When Bunton was being subjected to so much attention from Jones the Fitzroy skipper should have detailed a man to do nothing else but block Jones and bump him off his game. Then the brilliant Bunion could have been free to scintillate.

But to get back to our 1928 premiership, it was one of the four Collingwood won in a row and it made us even with Fitzroy each having won seven premierships the final scores were 13.18 to 9.9. They could have been reversed only for Percy Rowe and that’s why many old timers at Collingwood point to the 1928 pennant and refer to it as Rowe's flag.

To tell readers of another sensational game between Collingwood and Richmond I have to go back to the previous year 1927 when the Tigers were runners-up to Collingwood. It was in the grand final under the worst weather conditions imaginable. It could easily have been mistaken for a game under Soccer rules. It is not likely that a grand final will be played with the end showing such low scores. Collingwood scored 2.13. while the Tigers puddled through to finish with but 1.7.

Fancy an aggregate of 38 points for two good teams in a game played since the alteration of the out-of-bounds rule which has tended to help sides to get three figure scores!

In kicking all of Collingwood’s goals in that historic game the whole two of them I derived a great deal of pleasure.

Most Sensational Goal

One of them was the most sensational of ail the 1299 goals I kicked while playing for Collingwood. I was running with the ball away from the goal trying to get a turn in before kicking my feet slid forward from under me.

As I was just about measuring my length in the mud I kicked the ball over my shoulder. It went through the posts, to the joy of my teammates and disgust of the Tigers. It was my most sensational fuke.

Players went out that afternoon wearing two guernseys. It was not many minutes before we were all drenched to the skin a biting cold wind has all nearly frozen even the followers failed to work up circulation. Poor little Jack Murray’s spotless white uniform looked like a bit of dirty washing before the game had been in progress minute. It was hard to distinguish him from the short people on each side as he splashed through the mud and water. At half time out uniforms were taken off and wrung out.

Boots were soaked until they were so soft that they could have been wrung out like socks and the only thing that saved us from shivering to death during the interval was an issue od whiskey and milk

Coated in oil
Players coated themselves in oil hoping to keep out the wet and cold. The wet and greasy conditions made for congested play and as could be expected congestion led to a few fists flying it was easily the worst conditions I have seen the code played under.

As I have said before, it is not likely that we will ever see a league game finish with such low scores. In fact you could bet with certainty that no teams played under present day rules could score so few goals if kicked blindfolded. Men who played in that game must shudder when they recall the quarter scored which were

Richmond 0.1…0.4…0.7…1.7 13pts

Collingwood 0.1…2.6…2.9…2.13 25 pts

Row’s lone hand effort that won Collingwood the 1928 premiership and the grand final against the same team which ended with record low scores will remain in my thoughts forever

They were epic games that no participant could ever forget

 

[rbartlett]

FYI
Richmond Guardian 1910-1912, and 1919-1920 issues are now digitised and online at Trove.
It might reveal some very interesting research.

Rhett

 

[rbartlett]

So this surfaced in the recently digitised 1910 Richmond Guardian. regarding a Joe Hall.
Now, I've checked my archive, and we didn't have a Joe Hall in 1885 (our first year). And checking my VFA lists I have a Joseph "Joe" Hall who played in 1889, but for only 2 games. He seems to be the one who fits this paragraph the most - but its a bit peculiar Richmond remembering a 2 game player from 20 years earlier.
Looking on BDM - there's a Jos Hall died Avoca, aged 45. (meaning he was born around 1864/65, which would make him 20/21 for his debut in 1889, so that fit). But still cant understand why a 2 game would get a reference.

 

[35Daicos]

So this surfaced in the recently digitised 1910 Richmond Guardian. regarding a Joe Hall.
Now, I've checked my archive, and we didn't have a Joe Hall in 1885 (our first year). And checking my VFA lists I have a Joseph "Joe" Hall who played in 1889, but for only 2 games. He seems to be the one who fits this paragraph the most - but its a bit peculiar Richmond remembering a 2 game player from 20 years earlier.
Looking on BDM - there's a Jos Hall died Avoca, aged 45. (meaning he was born around 1864/65, which would make him 20/21 for his debut in 1889, so that fit). But still cant understand why a 2 game would get a reference.
View attachment 756857

Pennings (Vol. 3) has J. Hall (Rich. Jun.) as a new player for Richmond in 1889 (and playing 2 games). Perhaps the newspaper simply got their Richmond teams mixed up?!

This should be him:

 

[GreyCrow]

So this surfaced in the recently digitised 1910 Richmond Guardian. regarding a Joe Hall.
Now, I've checked my archive, and we didn't have a Joe Hall in 1885 (our first year). And checking my VFA lists I have a Joseph "Joe" Hall who played in 1889, but for only 2 games. He seems to be the one who fits this paragraph the most - but its a bit peculiar Richmond remembering a 2 game player from 20 years earlier.
Looking on BDM - there's a Jos Hall died Avoca, aged 45. (meaning he was born around 1864/65, which would make him 20/21 for his debut in 1889, so that fit). But still cant understand why a 2 game would get a reference.
View attachment 756857

There are 2 thoughts

1. He continued to play an active/spectator role at the club - though from Avoca I cant say
2. The writer knew him personally both from his time at Richmond and after.

 

[35Daicos]

He died on 9th August (1910) according to this: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191351003



https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191351127 (10 August):

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks for that info. Fascinating that even his death notice lists RFC playing member for someone of just 2 games?!
Hopefully when the 1888 Richmond Guardian is digitised it can shed some light on how well known he was at the time.
Cheers all, I've added his birth/death details to my VFA page https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

 

[35Daicos]

Both AustralianFootball.com and AFL Tables have a DOB of 27 June 1921 for Carlton one-game player Harold McDonald, but this doesn't appear to be correct. His DOB may have been updated in recent times, as The Encyclopedia, Blueseum and Wikipedia page all have 27 June 1922.

*Paul* | Oliver Gigacz

Harold Keith McDonald 27 June 1922 - 12 June 1999 in BillionGraves GPS Headstones | BillionGraves

Record for Harold Keith McDonald 27 June 1922 - 12 June 1999 in Nagambie Cemetery, Nagambie, Shire of Strathbogie, Victoria, Australia from BillionGraves GPS Headstones. | BillionGraves

da.billiongraves.com

The Wikipedia page for this chap does have another problem, as it suggests the Carlton player went on to become a star for Port Adelaide over many years:

They are two different people for sure, as there are discrepancies with the age, height and background/origin: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48105773

AustralianFootball.com has it right with two different pages: https://australianfootball.com/players/player/harold+mcdonald/7085 | https://australianfootball.com/players/player/harold+mcdonald/325

 

[GreyCrow]

The person who played for PA Harold McDonald '' a recruit from Birkenhead'' ( a suburb close to Port Adelaide )

LEAGUE FOOTBALL LEADERS CLASH AT NORWOOD - News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) - 7 Jul 1949

Norwood and North, top teams in the league football competition, are expected to attract a big crowd to Norwood Oval on Saturday when they clash for the second time this season. ...

nla.gov.au

Given this information from 1954 he is Harold Albert/Alfred born 1925 (Albert on DVA roll - Alfred on SA BDM)

He had to be coaxed into game - PROFILE - News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) - 31 Jul 1954

IF it hadn't been for the coaxing of a mate who lived across the By ...

nla.gov.au

Photo in link

SA BDM also have a section for newspaper deaths obits. Harold Alfred is listed as passing in 2001