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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Harry Hook said:
Here is a turn up for the books.

I looked up the WAFL Footy facts site ( started in 2017) and their records for 1904 say that Richardson's name was Henry Archibald (Archie ) Richardson.

So HA Richardson was playing in the Richmond team in 1904 as well as playing for Perth in the same year....... apparently.

It would seem that this H A Richardson confusion is now ensnarling 2 sets of state records.
Click to expand...

Well this is interesting.
WAFL Footy Fact site says Henry Archibald Richardson played 1 game only... Rd 1 1904... and that was on 14 May 1904
http://waflfootyfacts.net/season/games/stats.php?GameID=514
http://waflfootyfacts.net/player/stats.php?PlayerID=5390

However, our Richmond record have Henry Archie "Pony" Richardson playing for Richmond vs Essendon Town on 14 May 1904 at Essendon.
(To complete this stat we have him playing 15 games for Richmond in 1904 on 7/5, 14/5, 28/5, 4/6, 11/6, 18/6, 25/6, 2/7, 9/7, 16/7, 23/7, 30/7, 20/8, 27/8, 10/9 (and the 30/4 and 24/9 practice match). So the weeks he didn't play for Richmond were 21/5, 6/8, 13/8, 3/9, 1/10 (forfeit) )
 
rbartlett said:
Well this is interesting.
WAFL Footy Face site says Henry Archibald Richardson played 1 game only... Rd 1 1904... and that was on 14 May 1904
http://waflfootyfacts.net/season/games/stats.php?GameID=514
http://waflfootyfacts.net/player/stats.php?PlayerID=5390

However, our Richmond record have Henry Archie "Pony" Richardson playing for Richmond vs Essendon Town on 14 May 1904 at Essendon.
(To complete this stat we have him playing 15 games for Richmond in 1904 on 7/5, 14/5, 28/5, 4/6, 11/6, 18/6, 25/6, 2/7, 9/7, 16/7, 23/7, 30/7, 20/8, 27/8, 10/9 (and the 30/4 and 24/9 practice match). So the weeks he didn't play for Richmond were 21/5, 6/8, 13/8, 3/9, 1/10 (forfeit) )
Click to expand...
I'm calling it now. Something is dodgy with the records (not Richmond records) of HA Richardson.

Interestingly I found the fullest family tree of Henry Rockett Richardson on a site called Townley. He was married in 1878 in Collingwood ( a city connection) and had 10 children ( as was not uncommon then) including 6 sons which interestingly include one Charles Rockett Richardson who was apparently born in 1882 and died in Maylands Western Australia in 1957.

Further Charles married his wife in Kalgoorlie in 1905 ( the year after A Richardson went to Perth) so he was likely living there, one would presume in 1905.

All coincidence of course.
 
rbartlett said:
Well this is interesting.
WAFL Footy Fact site says Henry Archibald Richardson played 1 game only... Rd 1 1904... and that was on 14 May 1904
http://waflfootyfacts.net/season/games/stats.php?GameID=514
http://waflfootyfacts.net/player/stats.php?PlayerID=5390

However, our Richmond record have Henry Archie "Pony" Richardson playing for Richmond vs Essendon Town on 14 May 1904 at Essendon.
(To complete this stat we have him playing 15 games for Richmond in 1904 on 7/5, 14/5, 28/5, 4/6, 11/6, 18/6, 25/6, 2/7, 9/7, 16/7, 23/7, 30/7, 20/8, 27/8, 10/9 (and the 30/4 and 24/9 practice match). So the weeks he didn't play for Richmond were 21/5, 6/8, 13/8, 3/9, 1/10 (forfeit) )
Click to expand...
That site does point out that "Individual player data may be incomplete", it obviously is in this case.
killer posted this a few days back "there's a Richardson in the Perthfc book listed as 6 games in 1904". Newspaper reports suggest he started well with Perth, yet he only played 6 games, apparently. What happened to him, who knows, perhaps he headed to the goldfields.

We do know for sure it's not the same fellow who played for Richmond!! I guess we are really assuming that the A Richardson who went from St Kilda to Perth in 1904 is the same chap who played for St Kilda in 1901 (ex-Leopold player). There is a gap for 1902-1903 which hasn't been accounted for.

This is a lot of fun, it is one hell of a mystery, but the way that people work together on trying to solve it is great to see! I just hope between us an answer can be found!
 
35Daicos said:
That site does point out that "Individual player data may be incomplete", it obviously is in this case.
killer posted this a few days back "there's a Richardson in the Perthfc book listed as 6 games in 1904". Newspaper reports suggest he started well with Perth, yet he only played 6 games, apparently. What happened to him, who knows, perhaps he headed to the goldfields.

We do know for sure it's not the same fellow who played for Richmond!! I guess we are really assuming that the A Richardson who went from St Kilda to Perth in 1904 is the same chap who played for St Kilda in 1901 (ex-Leopold player). There is a gap for 1902-1903 which hasn't been accounted for.

This is a lot of fun, it is one hell of a mystery, but the way that people work together on trying to solve it is great to see! I just hope between us an answer can be found!
Click to expand...
And if you're right then we have two A Richardsons who played for St Kilda. One who who played until 1901 and then another who joined St Kilda after that to be cleared to WA.

What is crucial for me is that there was a Victorian clearance ( the Age report) so the Saints would have raised a concern if they had one.

I'm beginning to think that A Richardson (1901) may have moved to WA the year or two before the 1904 clearance but if he wanted to play in 1904, he then needed a clearance. Unfortunately I can't see any report early 1902 or 1903 that he may have left Victoria.

The clearances in Victoria and WA in 1904 only suggest that it was necessary that he be cleared at that time not that he was in Victoria or WA prior to that time.
 

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Just a note. I'm pretty sure that Perth was based at the WACA and there was a fire which burnt a lot of their early records including the 1904 records.
 
Harry Hook said:
And if you're right then we have two A Richardsons who played for St Kilda. One who who played until 1901 and then another who joined St Kilda after that to be cleared to WA.

What is crucial for me is that there was a Victorian clearance ( the Age report) so the Saints would have raised a concern if they had one.

I'm beginning to think that A Richardson (1901) may have moved to WA the year or two before the 1904 clearance but if he wanted to play in 1904, he then needed a clearance. Unfortunately I can't see any report early 1902 or 1903 that he may have left Victoria.

The clearances in Victoria and WA in 1904 only suggest that it was necessary that he be cleared at that time not that he was in Victoria or WA prior to that time.
Click to expand...
I wasn't trying to suggest that I actually think there was yet another Richardson at St Kilda (that would probably make four of them!!!). I think the one who got the permit to move from that club to Perth in May 1904 would have been the same chap (ex-Leopold) who played in 1901, I was just wondering what happened to him for the next two years, really! The 1900 player was pretty definitely W Richardson, A Richardson for 1901, 1898 ??? I do suspect there must have been three different Richardson's play for St Kilda between 1898-1901, but I'm obviously guessing. Let's keep looking!! More info on the 1898 fellow would be good!
 
35Daicos said:
I wasn't trying to suggest that I actually think there was yet another Richardson at St Kilda (that would probably make four of them!!!). I think the one who got the permit to move from that club to Perth in May 1904 would have been the same chap (ex-Leopold) who played in 1901, I was just wondering what happened to him for the next two years, really! The 1900 player was pretty definitely W Richardson, A Richardson for 1901, 1898 ??? I do suspect there must have been three different Richardson's play for St Kilda between 1898-1901, but I'm obviously guessing. Let's keep looking!! More info on the 1898 fellow would be good!
Click to expand...

I'll keep checking a range of online resources, but I suspect we may have to be patient.

Some of the news items we are hoping to find are probably in the local Richmond and St Kilda newspapers on microfilm at the State Library, but not yet on Trove. They certainly cover the date range we are after. I won't have much chance to help search them myself in the immediate future as I live interstate.
 
Harry Hook said:
I'm calling it now. Something is dodgy with the records (not Richmond records) of HA Richardson.

Interestingly I found the fullest family tree of Henry Rockett Richardson on a site called Townley. He was married in 1878 in Collingwood ( a city connection) and had 10 children ( as was not uncommon then) including 6 sons which interestingly include one Charles Rockett Richardson who was apparently born in 1882 and died in Maylands Western Australia in 1957.

Further Charles married his wife in Kalgoorlie in 1905 ( the year after A Richardson went to Perth) so he was likely living there, one would presume in 1905.

All coincidence of course.
Click to expand...

Yes, WA electoral rolls show him living in Kalgoorlie from 1910 to at least early 1930s,
then Perth from mid-1930s to his death in 1957.
 
Off topic - if anyone comes across a photo of Hurstbridge 1935 premiership team, please tell me. It was their first flag.
I believe Alan Maple (Richmond), captained the side
 
Boys I took a trip to the WA state library and besides thoroughly enjoying the contemporary reports of the Russian Japanese War ( one of the least known but most influential wars of the 20th century), I can report, as you can guess, there are real problems relying on Trove for WA stuff.

An example. Look at the Mirror newspaper for example. Everywhere, including on line, suggests it started in 1920. Wrong the library has reports from 1907 - 1910 ( including photos of games) of the Mirror.

I looked at a newspaper called the Sportsman ( published from about 1902 - 1904, of which patchy copies remain but has very detailed football reports.The 1904 editions start from August 1904. Our friend Richardson does not get a reference, suggesting he's no longer a factor.

I then looked at a shortlived political pro Labour newspaper called the Democrat for 1904 ( not on Trove to my knowledge but it started in June 1904) which also had a football column ( as political newspapers did at the time and also horseracing). Not much there except this illuminating reference of 2 July 1904 where it was stated " Richardson has shared with Edmondsen the uneviable distinction of being the most useless man on the field". Edmondsen got commented on the next week for improving. I wouldn't be surprised if Richardson didn't play the next week. And this may explain why he disappears from Perth after 6 games.

Now the most interesting report for me. It was in the Morning Herald ( another newspaper not on Trove) where it listed the permits granted ( on the 11 May 1904 edition).Firstly it recorded the permits with all initials a player had so there are players with 2 initials named in the list, some with 1 initial and some with none.

For Richardson it simply said "Richardson St Kilda to Perth", not A Richardson. I repeat that most of the other reports of the clearances gave one or 2 initials.

Moreover on 4 June 1904, the MH states that "Richardson of St Kilda" played.

To confirm all this, I looked at old xeroxes of the original clearance books I have of the WAFL going back to 1911. They were handwritten as you would expect in those days, in that lovely longhand, that has since died an unnatural death. Those clearances often had a variety of full names, a couple of initials, initials and sometimes no initials at all.

The proposition I'm putting is that perhaps the player we know as A Richardson ( like Archie Richardson) did not have as a first name a name starting with A but some other name but called himself Arthur or Albert etc, a not uncommon trait at the time.

I have not seen the 1904 clearance sheet but it would answer that query.

It makes our life harder I'm afraid but the reports I saw did confirm a player playing for Perth DID come to WA in 1904 and that he was from St Kilda.

At the very least, it in my view establishes there is a query over the whole history of H Archie Richardson as being a St Kilda player. And that he stopped because possibly he wasn't any good.

I would suggest that someone in Victoria go to the State Library to look up not just the Herald but any contemporary local newspapers which may have had a more than average interest in Richardson ( such as a St Kilda paper).
 
Harry Hook said:
Now the most interesting report for me. It was in the Morning Herald ( another newspaper not on Trove) where it listed the permits granted ( on the 11 May 1904 edition).Firstly it recorded the permits with all initials a player had so there are players with 2 initials named in the list, some with 1 initial and some with none.

For Richardson it simply said "Richardson St Kilda to Perth", not A Richardson. I repeat that most of the other reports of the clearances gave one or 2 initials.

Moreover on 4 June 1904, the MH states that "Richardson of St Kilda" played.

To confirm all this, I looked at old xeroxes of the original clearance books I have of the WAFL going back to 1911. They were handwritten as you would expect in those days, in that lovely longhand, that has since died an unnatural death. Those clearances often had a variety of full names, a couple of initials, initials and sometimes no initials at all.

The proposition I'm putting is that perhaps the player we know as A Richardson ( like Archie Richardson) did not have as a first name a name starting with A but some other name but called himself Arthur or Albert etc, a not uncommon trait at the time.

I have not seen the 1904 clearance sheet but it would answer that query.

It makes our life harder I'm afraid but the reports I saw did confirm a player playing for Perth DID come to WA in 1904 and that he was from St Kilda.

At the very least, it in my view establishes there is a query over the whole history of H Archie Richardson as being a St Kilda player. And that he stopped because possibly he wasn't any good.

I would suggest that someone in Victoria go to the State Library to look up not just the Herald but any contemporary local newspapers which may have had a more than average interest in Richardson ( such as a St Kilda paper).
Click to expand...
The Age did name him A. Richardson in the permit news, while The West Australian (on the same day as the Morning Herald) simply called him Richardson. Keeping track of all of this is obviously not easy, as it's now spread out over a fair few pages! This is what was posted a while back regarding the Richardson St. Kilda to WA/Perth permit:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201647152 (The Age, 7 May 1904)

Permits to transfer were granted ~~~
A. Richardson, St. Kilda to Western Australia:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/25088058 (The West Australian, 11 May 1904)

Permits
Richardson, St. Kilda to Perth;
 
35Daicos said:
The Age did name him A. Richardson in the permit news, while The West Australian (on the same day as the Morning Herald) simply called him Richardson. Keeping track of all of this is obviously not easy, as it's now spread out over a fair few pages! This is what was posted a while back regarding the Richardson St. Kilda to WA/Perth permit:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201647152 (The Age, 7 May 1904)

Permits to transfer were granted ~~~
A. Richardson, St. Kilda to Western Australia:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/25088058 (The West Australian, 11 May 1904)

Permits
Richardson, St. Kilda to Perth;
Click to expand...
If we as a group are going to prove a cogent argument that not only are AFL tables,the St Kilda history and the WA records incorrect AND that a player who has previously been overlooked should now be credited with games AND that accepted history may be not be accepted it has to survive the crucible of the regulars on this board and all possible investigations have been made.

I'm just a bit peeved the 1904 early editions of the Sportsman ( I actually looked at the original paper editions of the the 1904 Sportsman not microfiche) aren't there.
 

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35Daicos said:
The Age did name him A. Richardson in the permit news, while The West Australian (on the same day as the Morning Herald) simply called him Richardson. Keeping track of all of this is obviously not easy, as it's now spread out over a fair few pages! This is what was posted a while back regarding the Richardson St. Kilda to WA/Perth permit:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201647152 (The Age, 7 May 1904)

Permits to transfer were granted ~~~
A. Richardson, St. Kilda to Western Australia:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/25088058 (The West Australian, 11 May 1904)

Permits
Richardson, St. Kilda to Perth;
Click to expand...
killer said:
I don't want to interrupt your Richardson St Kilda to Perth stuff

just noting here that this says there was a "Richardson" who transferred in 1904 - Richmond to Subiaco
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/82412078
Click to expand...

What the above extracts indicate to me is that Richardson, as the St Kilda footballer at least, was not known in WA prior to his clearance but he was in Victoria. The only nexus I have for Richardson and Perth Football Club is that Syd Phillips was then playing with Perth and did play in 1904. Syd Phillips and a player called Richardson did play for the Saints in 1898 and indeed both men played in the same team together in 1898 in the first round versus Melbourne. In the other two games Richardson played for the Saints on 1898, Phillips did not play.

Where he was residing was another question.He could have been living in Victoria although he did play the first game in WA so that suggests he was already in WA at that time.

This is consistent with the reporting of him in the newspapers in Perth.
 
One more definite in the HA Richardson timelime ( or as definite as one can be).

HA Richardson received an offer to join the Liberatti band in 1906

Gippsland Times 20 December 1906

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65254350

This, if there was any doubt, removes such doubt that HA Richardson was the A Richardson went to Perth from St Kilda, given he joined the Gippsland Band in 1904.

This also confirms (albeit with the year being 1907 in place of 1897) the biographical data that HA Richardson supplied in his 1930s article.

So if A Richardson of St Kilda was someone else the Wikipedia entry may be in error.
 
New challenge: Archibald Middleton is listed as playing one game for St Kilda in 1897 and 3 games for Fitzroy 1900

His date of birth is listed as 27 October 1871 which is that of Archibald James Middleton (born in Wangaratta)
However, a quick look at http://www.bwm.org.au/site/Archibald_Middleton.php shows that Archibald James Middleton served in the Boer War in South Africa from Apr 1900 - Apr 1901. He cannot be the person that played for Fitzroy.

So who was the Middleton that did play? There was a Archibald John Middleton (1868-1915) who lived in Carlton in 1903 who seems a candidate but I haven't found much on Trove to id the player.
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
New challenge: Archibald Middleton is listed as playing one game for St Kilda in 1897 and 3 games for Fitzroy 1900

His date of birth is listed as 27 October 1871 which is that of Archibald James Middleton (born in Wangaratta)
However, a quick look at http://www.bwm.org.au/site/Archibald_Middleton.php shows that Archibald James Middleton served in the Boer War in South Africa from Apr 1900 - Apr 1901. He cannot be the person that played for Fitzroy.

So who was the Middleton that did play? There was a Archibald John Middleton (1868-1915) who lived in Carlton in 1903 who seems a candidate but I haven't found much on Trove to id the player.
Click to expand...
While AFL Tables has him as Arch Middleton, interestingly he's Albert Middleton at AustralianFootball.com. They don't have a DoD for him, the two sites have the same DoB. http://australianfootball.com/players/player/albert+middleton/1100

'The Encyclopedia' has him as Archibald C. Middleton, ex-Windsor.
 
Archibald James Middleton Boer War soldier enlisted in NSW.

From the above provided link

Service and life after the Boer War: Married in Durban or Pretoria in 1904 to Australian Marion Bunyan. They had a son in Durban or Pretoria in 1906. He became a butcher's carter and lived in Lidcombe NSW

Though the death certificate (NSW transcript) names parents as William and Margaret the same as the Vic birth section. So fairly sure they are one and the same. Why NSW though?

Archibald JOHN Middleton was born in 1868 and died in 1915 in a lift accident. Many reports on this event but nothing to suggest he played football. This would make him 32 in 1900

Further . A Middleton was refused a permit to play for Prahran in 1899 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165218900

1899 article ( in Wangaratta) says an AA Middleton (Fitzroy) attended a cycling race http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199715606

This (possibly) links to Alfred Arthur born 1871 to Andrew John Middleton and Jessy Dunnett place of birth is DUNOlly

Though this says Middleton Fitzroy is a W. Typo? Mixed message? http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9569305

Though this reaffirms Alfred A Middleton as a cyclist http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article200505959

Alfred Arthur died 1953 . I will say in the stories about his cycling there is no mention of football. So I would scratch him , oops his death notice mentions football but no VFL http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178191310

( this is the process I go through :D ) random thoughts leading to others

More later
 

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the croucher said:
Ancestry and Vic BDMs include refs to an Albert Charles Middleton (b 1876 - d 1957).
Electoral rolls have him living in Fitzroy in 1906.
Click to expand...
Albert Charles is the brother of Alfred and is named as a trio of cycling brothers in one of the links I provided above. But shall chase up other news
 
An A Middleton was listed as being a committeeman at Windsor in 1896

Prahran Chronicle 18 April 1896

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165211864

An A Middleton did play for Windsor in 1897

Prahran Telegraph 12 June 1897

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144638092

He was their captain in 1898 ( about the time of the Boer War)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144638092

South Bourke and Mornington Journal of 6 1898

His initial and last name was AW Middleton and he was cleared from St Kilda to Fitzroy in May 1899

cf Argus 1 June 1899

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974

I doubt he served in the Boer War.
 
More serendipity

Here is the list of permits for Middleton.

cf Argus 1 June 1899

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974

Note the reference to G Morrison being transferred from Richmond to St Kilda

Look up George Morrison on AFL tables and yes he did play for the saints in 1899 .......... but also one game in 1897.

Wikipedia lists him as originating from Cheltenham.

Given the difficulties we have had with Richardson, I have my doubts about whether the same man played all 6 games.
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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