Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

Update from Stephen Rodgers. DOBs discovered etc

Hayes Michael Alphonsus, called Alf
born 29 - 7 - 1900

Monk Miles Alexander, called Bobby (under mother's maiden name of Dobson)
born 22 - 10 - 1885

With the Richardson players (who originally was recorded just as Archie Richardson)
Richardson William Kendall
born 10-2-1880
(and died, as you previously advised 10-7-1903)
So that's 1900 man!

Richardson St K 1898 unknown at the moment
and
Richardson St K 1901 unknown at the moment

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Tom McMahon (Footscray) is listed at AFL Tables, australianfootball.com, Harder Than Football as being born 11 September 1921 - corresponding to Thomas James McMahon born in Bendigo.

Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers does not have a DOB listed.

Looking up refs to his playing career on Trove it is clear this is the wrong guy - the player was Thomas Joseph McMahon born 28 July 1918 in Melbourne; died 24 September 2005. Clearest evidence is news article on his wedding http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165034400 but I've updated wikipedia with quite a few refs that show the full story. He was a sprinter, served in WWII, and worked in the office of the Record (South Melb local paper) for many years.

EDIT: I've also let Stephen Rodgers, AFL Tables and australianfootball.com know of this - hopefully site changes will be made shortly

 

[*Paul*]

A reader has suggested St. Kilda's goalkickers in round 2, 1921 are
Moyes (3), Lowrie (2), James (1), Kerley (1), Ricketts (1), not
Moyes (5), Lowrie (2), Kerley (1)
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1921/061519210514.html

The Age mentions James
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203973614
and The Argus mentions both James and Ricketts
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1757085/413374

So there might be something to it.

 

[the croucher]

A reader has suggested St. Kilda's goalkickers in round 2, 1921 are
Moyes (3), Lowrie (2), James (1), Kerley (1), Ricketts (1), not
Moyes (5), Lowrie (2), Kerley (1)
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1921/061519210514.html

The Age mentions James
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203973614
and The Argus mentions both James and Ricketts
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1757085/413374

So there might be something to it.

...and The Herald report on evening of match also lists the goalkickers as Paul's reader has suggested:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/26325283

Definitely worth further investigation.

 

[the croucher]

I cannot see earlier reference to Jim Cullen (Essendon, Sth Melb, Carlton) being reviewed:
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/jim cullen/1377
DOB - 9 June 1878 DOD - 9 May 1954

The birth and death dates do not appear to match Vic BDMs refs, and given the gap between his second and third matches (one for South M and the other for Carlton), is this potentially another case of two people being merged into one ?


James Cullen birth reg in Hotham district #26207/1885 to parents Michael & Elizabeth (nee Cantwell)

James Cullen death reg in Brunswick district #5150/1954 parents i.d. as Michael & Elizabeth (nee Cantwell)
b'place shown as Melbourne, aged 68 (i.e. birth c 1885)

 

[the croucher]

...and The Herald report on evening of match also lists the goalkickers as Paul's reader has suggested:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/26325283

Definitely worth further investigation.

Mmm...quite curious...the VFL Record at the time lists each week the goalkickers totals for the season up to that point.

The Round 3 programme therefore includes the St Kilda goalkickers of the (Rnd 2) match under question, see page 29 of the issue here:
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/119666
http://search.slv.vic.gov.au/
Seems to back the 5, 2, 1 set rather than 3, 2, 1, 1, 1.

I'll check Trove to see if any newspapers comment about the variation in list of goalkickers.

 

[the croucher]

I cannot see earlier reference to Jim Cullen (Essendon, Sth Melb, Carlton) being reviewed:
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/jim cullen/1377
DOB - 9 June 1878 DOD - 9 May 1954

The birth and death dates do not appear to match Vic BDMs refs, and given the gap between his second and third matches (one for South M and the other for Carlton), is this potentially another case of two people being merged into one ?


James Cullen birth reg in Hotham district #26207/1885 to parents Michael & Elizabeth (nee Cantwell)

James Cullen death reg in Brunswick district #5150/1954 parents i.d. as Michael & Elizabeth (nee Cantwell)
b'place shown as Melbourne, aged 68 (i.e. birth c 1885)

There is an entry in NSW BDMs for a James Cullen birth 9 June 1878 #10819/1878 with mother named as Mary, no father's name shown, district listed as Carcoar.

There are a number of death records listed in NSW for a James Cullen (with mother's name Mary) after that date, but none in 1954.

Given the Vic BDMs entry for a death of James Cullen in 1954 as listed in earlier post has a very different birth year, and completely different mother's name, and a Vic birthplace not NSW, the lifespan details for the VFL player quoted in the official record do not appear accurate.

 

[rbartlett]

Given the Vic BDMs entry for a death of James Cullen in 1954 as listed in earlier post has a very different birth year, and completely different mother's name, and a Vic birthplace not NSW, the lifespan details for the VFL player quoted in the official record do not appear accurate.

I've sent SR these details, and see what he comes up with from his end

 

[*Paul*]

It appears Phil Walsh assumed match day coaching duties from Mark Williams (due to the death of Fos Williams the previous day), Port. v WC, r22, 2001
This is usually sufficient for me to give credit.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

It appears Phil Walsh assumed match day coaching duties from Mark Williams (due to the death of Fos Williams the previous day), Port. v WC, r22, 2001
This is usually sufficient for me to give credit.

Were there any articles stating that Choco were to be unavailable?

 

[Gibbsy]

Were there any articles stating that Choco were to be unavailable?

Found this via ProQuest. It's a bit of a grey area.

-----------------------

Port's leading legend dies, 79: [1 Edition]
Porter, Ashley. The Australian; Canberra, A.C.T. [Canberra, A.C.T]03 Sep 2001: 24.

"FOS WILLIAMS, a South Australian league football icon over the past half-century, died on Saturday, aged 79.

His son, Mark, has coached Port Adelaide into their second finals campaign in his third year as coach.

Mark sat in the coach's box and went on to the field during yesterday's record 112-point win against the West Coast Eagles at Football Park, but gave the coaching duties to his assistant, Phillip Walsh."

-----------------------

So he was still at the game. He still went out onto the ground. He mightn't have been the one making the main instructions. Do we know that hasn't happened before though, in other games, but without fanfare?

 

[*Paul*]

Hmmm, that is a conundrum. I will leave it as Williams for now.

 

[Obi fella]

I think a '*' is required with this one.

 

[the croucher]

Hmmm, that is a conundrum. I will leave it as Williams for now.

Yes, I think that is probably correct, despite the quote from The Australian which muddied the waters a bit.

Have just found a note I made years ago on same subject being a quote from M Rucci's report as published in the Adelaide Advertiser on 3 Sept 2001 page 37:

"But the match became important to Port as a moment of tribute for club patriarch Fos Williams, who died at 10pm on Saturday in hospital after a long battle with illness. His eldest son, Mark, met family wishes of coaching the side, with his senior assistant Phil Walsh charged with addressing the players at the major breaks."

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Dick Bliss played a single game for South Melbourne in 1906 and currently has published DOB as 8 July 1882 and DOD as 23 February 1971

Currently published sources:
1. AFL Encyclopedia: Richard Bliss, b 8 July 1882; Ex-Boulder Star (W.A.)
2. AFL Tables https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/D/Dick_Bliss.html : Born:8-Jul-1882
3. http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/club/History/every-player has him as Dick C. Bliss
4. australianfootball.com has Full name Richard Bliss; Known as Dick Bliss Born 8 July 1882 Died 23 February 1971 (aged 88)

These dates correspond to a Richard Herbert Bliss born in Bathurst, New South Wales and died in St Leonards, New South Wales. When I looked at him on Ancestry I could not find any evidence of him ever living outside NSW. So I’ve searched Trove and got a fuller picture of his career and believe that the current identification of the player is incorrect.

1901: ’Dick’ Bliss commences career with Port Melbourne http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190044757 “the best game on the other side was played by a young giant named Bliss, who before last Saturday had never played a game or football with a recognised club of any sort” – plays a total of six games that year
1902: Bliss plays 12 games for Port – misses four games when suspended for fighting http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9066539
Jun 1903: Travels to Western Australia: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164949037 and this is likely him appearing for Kookynie in the Eastern Goldfields http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89047471, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89052801
1904: Plays for Boulder: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article33126589, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page23087902 In July of that year he was selected to represent W.A. in football carnival http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article38685218 and played well http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57194330, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article38686789, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57194732. Described as 75 inches tall - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article211597568
1905: Permit to Boulder Stars http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89203190 (as B. C. Bliss)
1906: May - Permit to South Melbourne http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89626621 (as B. Bliss) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189375708 (as Richard Bliss)
In July 1906 transferred to Williamstown http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189375314 (as R. Bliss) and plays until 1908
1909: Captains Yarraville http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10709607
In 1911, stands for committee of Williamstown Football Club http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69688490
In 1911, appointed as hon. trainer of Williamstown http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69688560

Based on all of the above, I believe the player was Benjamin Charles “Dick” Bliss - particularly given the death notice below
Born 1881 in Newport/Williamstown
In 1907 married Janet Caldwell, sister of footballers Jim & Arthur Caldwell
Died 3 Sep 1935 after a motor accident in Deniliquin, NSW http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70732024
Death Notice: BLISS.-On the 3rd September, at Deniliquin (NSW) (result of accident) Benjamin Charles (Dick) Bliss of Piangil, Victoria and Newport, devoted husband of Janet and darling dadda of Agnes (Billie) and Robina (Bena) aged 53 years http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11764310
Buried in Williamstown Cemetery https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/153396675

 

[the croucher]

Dick Bliss played a single game for South Melbourne in 1906 and currently has published DOB as 8 July 1882 and DOD as 23 February 1971

Currently published sources:
1. AFL Encyclopedia: Richard Bliss, b 8 July 1882; Ex-Boulder Star (W.A.)
2. AFL Tables https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/D/Dick_Bliss.html : Born:8-Jul-1882
3. http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/club/History/every-player has him as Dick C. Bliss
4. australianfootball.com has Full name Richard Bliss; Known as Dick Bliss Born 8 July 1882 Died 23 February 1971 (aged 88)

These dates correspond to a Richard Herbert Bliss born in Bathurst, New South Wales and died in St Leonards, New South Wales. When I looked at him on Ancestry I could not find any evidence of him ever living outside NSW. So I’ve searched Trove and got a fuller picture of his career and believe that the current identification of the player is incorrect.

1901: ’Dick’ Bliss commences career with Port Melbourne http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190044757 “the best game on the other side was played by a young giant named Bliss, who before last Saturday had never played a game or football with a recognised club of any sort” – plays a total of six games that year
1902: Bliss plays 12 games for Port – misses four games when suspended for fighting http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9066539
Jun 1903: Travels to Western Australia: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164949037 and this is likely him appearing for Kookynie in the Eastern Goldfields http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89047471, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89052801
1904: Plays for Boulder: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article33126589, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page23087902 In July of that year he was selected to represent W.A. in football carnival http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article38685218 and played well http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57194330, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article38686789, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57194732. Described as 75 inches tall - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article211597568
1905: Permit to Boulder Stars http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89203190 (as B. C. Bliss)
1906: May - Permit to South Melbourne http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89626621 (as B. Bliss) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189375708 (as Richard Bliss)
In July 1906 transferred to Williamstown http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189375314 (as R. Bliss) and plays until 1908
1909: Captains Yarraville http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10709607
In 1911, stands for committee of Williamstown Football Club http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69688490
In 1911, appointed as hon. trainer of Williamstown http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69688560

Based on all of the above, I believe the player was Benjamin Charles “Dick” Bliss - particularly given the death notice below
Born 1881 in Newport/Williamstown
In 1907 married Janet Caldwell, sister of footballers Jim & Arthur Caldwell
Died 3 Sep 1935 after a motor accident in Deniliquin, NSW http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70732024
Death Notice: BLISS.-On the 3rd September, at Deniliquin (NSW) (result of accident) Benjamin Charles (Dick) Bliss of Piangil, Victoria and Newport, devoted husband of Janet and darling dadda of Agnes (Billie) and Robina (Bena) aged 53 years http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11764310
Buried in Williamstown Cemetery https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/153396675

Well done. That is a substantial amount of research, and from what you have identified I'd have to agree with your conclusions.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Well done. That is a substantial amount of research, and from what you have identified I'd have to agree with your conclusions.

Thanks - it helps when people have fairly unusual names. Simply searching for Bliss & football on Trove gave me pretty much all of this (the only other Bliss that seems to play football in that decade was in Bendigo) I'll copy and paste the above and send it on to Stephen Rodgers and see what he says.

 

[the croucher]

I've sent SR these details, and see what he comes up with from his end

Rhett, I take it we have had no news from AFL House about the apparent errors in Cullen's lifespan details.
It has been three weeks now.

 

[rbartlett]

Rhett, I take it we have had no news from AFL House about the apparent errors in Cullen's lifespan details.
It has been three weeks now.

He's away for a month.

 

[the croucher]

He's away for a month.

Ah, fair enough then.

 

[rbartlett]

The Richmond FC hosted a Life Members afternoon function - bestowing the award on posthumous premiership players.
Thought you may like this thread -showing what happened.
Shout out to WhiteHartLane23 for his assistance in putting us on the right path for some relatives
If you click the image below it will take you to my twitter thread

 

[GreyCrow]

rbartlett RedmanWasHere I notice you are chasing Bill Clarke. I might have a possibility

Jesse William Clarke born 1873 and died Burwood 1950 had a daughter Vera Frances in 1902 who married a Schwab in 1925

Yours?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

rbartlett RedmanWasHere I notice you are chasing Bill Clarke. I might have a possibility

Jesse William Clarke born 1873 and died Burwood 1950 had a daughter Vera Frances in 1902 who married a Schwab in 1925

Yours?

That's what I found too the other day but I didn't want to chime in as I thought I'd've been a nosey Parker.

Once again, we have a player using their middle name as their given name.

 

[GreyCrow]

That's what I found too the other day but I didn't want to chime in as I thought I'd've been a nosey Parker.

Once again, we have a player using their middle name as their given name.

I cant help myself. Its a puzzle to be solved and I have to dig at it and hand it off , if I dont hand it off then it bothers me internally

 

[RedmanWasHere]

I cant help myself. Its a puzzle to be solved and I have to dig at it and hand it off , if I dont hand it off then it bothers me internally

Fair enough.

It's an itch that warrants scratching.