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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
- Thread starter Supermercado
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GreyCrow
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Dave Baxter is from Clare SA born 1910 died 1978 - all on Ausfooty site. The Baxter above looks to be from the 1900s
There is a Baxter named here from the same sentiment of the previous post http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82412078 as a sidenote a Wain from Richmond also played
2 different people
Schwab family confirms that it Billy Clarke who played for Richmond VFA. We have him at 1896-1901, and 1905. (not sure what he did in between 1901 and 1905). Looks like AFTER 1905 he went to Burwood.
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Dick Doran currently has date of death as 5 July 1926 - should be 5 December 1912 as per http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203330873
Vic BDM checks out - parents Patrick Doran & Catherine Mccarthy match the 1868 birth date
Vic BDM checks out - parents Patrick Doran & Catherine Mccarthy match the 1868 birth date
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Long reply from Stephen Rodgers.
Cut and paste below without comment by me.
"- Thanks for the Geoffrey John Kerr advice; we've noted that.
- David Allen has just told me the St K 1923 player Pennicott, should be Robert George, rather than Richard George. (He's still known as George)
- Col said that the son of Alan McDonald, had recently been in touch with him, and he will give us soon Jim K. McDonald's date of death.
- I hope to follow up with Stephen Wade later this week, about the Dick Bliss situation, which he told me about.
- Re the Cullen case:
I'll go thru all the times I noted the name in the old clearance book -
J.Cullen
Port Melb to Ess 12/5/99
J.Cullen
Ess to S.Melb 31/5/99
Paul Cullen
S.Melb to S.Melb Juniors
19/6/01
J.Cullen
S.Melb to S.Melb Juniors
26/6/01
J.Cullen
S.Melb to Melb 23/4/02
P.Cullen
S.Melb Juniors disqualification endorsed by League 22/8/02
Jas. Cullen
Melb to Carl 4/5/04
So, basically, I don't have a problem with Jim Cullen being the same person all the way thru - even though, granted, he did move around an awful lot;
going from Port Melbourne to Essendon to South Melbourne to South Melbourne Juniors to Melbourne (where he didn't play a senior match) to - I also noted, to Leopold - and finally to Carlton at the start of '04.
Looking at those 1901 clearances, I would say, Jim and Paul HAVE to be brothers - don't you think so?;
with both going from South to South Juniors within a week of each other.
Ok - we mightn't have the dates correct now, as you indicated; but maybe the birth and death dates can be apparent to you now, on the basis of them being brothers.
Thanks if you can clarify this.
- That just leaves of course - haha! - the Richardsons. Presuming nothing has still turned up, I'm going to have to have stabs in the dark (like I did for literally 100s of these players, 30 or so years ago! -
which so often, nowadays, you and the other guys have corrected! -
but what hope did I have? - haha!! - all those years ago!)
But I'll put them before you, before we enter them
(the thing is, we HAVE to have something in the records for these guys)
and you can veto them, if you want to. But I'll look into that over the next month or so."
Cut and paste below without comment by me.
"- Thanks for the Geoffrey John Kerr advice; we've noted that.
- David Allen has just told me the St K 1923 player Pennicott, should be Robert George, rather than Richard George. (He's still known as George)
- Col said that the son of Alan McDonald, had recently been in touch with him, and he will give us soon Jim K. McDonald's date of death.
- I hope to follow up with Stephen Wade later this week, about the Dick Bliss situation, which he told me about.
- Re the Cullen case:
I'll go thru all the times I noted the name in the old clearance book -
J.Cullen
Port Melb to Ess 12/5/99
J.Cullen
Ess to S.Melb 31/5/99
Paul Cullen
S.Melb to S.Melb Juniors
19/6/01
J.Cullen
S.Melb to S.Melb Juniors
26/6/01
J.Cullen
S.Melb to Melb 23/4/02
P.Cullen
S.Melb Juniors disqualification endorsed by League 22/8/02
Jas. Cullen
Melb to Carl 4/5/04
So, basically, I don't have a problem with Jim Cullen being the same person all the way thru - even though, granted, he did move around an awful lot;
going from Port Melbourne to Essendon to South Melbourne to South Melbourne Juniors to Melbourne (where he didn't play a senior match) to - I also noted, to Leopold - and finally to Carlton at the start of '04.
Looking at those 1901 clearances, I would say, Jim and Paul HAVE to be brothers - don't you think so?;
with both going from South to South Juniors within a week of each other.
Ok - we mightn't have the dates correct now, as you indicated; but maybe the birth and death dates can be apparent to you now, on the basis of them being brothers.
Thanks if you can clarify this.
- That just leaves of course - haha! - the Richardsons. Presuming nothing has still turned up, I'm going to have to have stabs in the dark (like I did for literally 100s of these players, 30 or so years ago! -
which so often, nowadays, you and the other guys have corrected! -
but what hope did I have? - haha!! - all those years ago!)
But I'll put them before you, before we enter them
(the thing is, we HAVE to have something in the records for these guys)
and you can veto them, if you want to. But I'll look into that over the next month or so."
Oh dear. This is a seriously disturbing message.
"..stabs in the dark ..for 100s of players.."
Okay, I acknowledge the range of records we can use now were not so readily available 30 years ago.
That is no excuse for making an assumption and then claiming it to be accurate and confirmed without evidence to do so.
and
"..we HAVE to have something in the records for these guys.."
Well actually Stephen and the AFL can put something in the records seeing that they HAVE to have something listed.
One word will suffice to cover all means of unconfirmed name and date fields - UNKNOWN
There ought be no shame in that. If you don't know an answer and have researched all potential clues, then a name or date cannot simply be plucked out of thin air simply to fill a gap !
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obituary for a Paul Cullen dated 1950 when he was aged 67 [i.e. born c 1883] so playing footy in late teens in 1900-01 quite possible.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162542551
But to say they "HAVE to be brothers" due to the proximity of the June 1901 clearances for each.
Really, that is a bit of a stretch.
Vic BDMs shows a Paul George Cullen death record for the year 1950 with parents Francis Stephen and Mary Cullen (nee Rice), with birthplace as Stawell. A search of Vic BDMs for children with Cullen surname and parents Francis and Mary (nee Rice) returns a set of seven children born between 1862 and 1876, none of whom are named James or Jim. Mind you there is no record for Paul either !
Once again, we have assumption morphing into "official record" but without the necessary evidence to support it.
GreyCrow
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There is a Patrick and James born to Thomas Cullen and Margaret Murphy
Patrick 1879
James 1881
I shall check later now train is moving
Patrick 1879
James 1881
I shall check later now train is moving
GreyCrow
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Based on the premise that Paul Cullen is the correct name I checked Trove and found this http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162542551 mentions Paul a s acricketer and footballer and a South Melbourne connection. The obit says he was 67 in 1950 and born to Francis and Mary (nee Rice) doing a search doesnt show a birth of a Paul or a Paul George ( name on death) . It states he was born Stawell. 3 births registered in Stawell between 1882 and 1885 and none can be considered a Cullen or a Paul.
Francis and Mary had children between 1862 and (if this is to be believed) 1883. A 21 yr span. Not unheard of. I am starting to wonder if there is a hidden birth and they adopted him. ie an older sister etc.
If we accept the above is Paul Cullen then there is no brother James either.
I'd like to touch on a name in my VFA players list of Arthur Morehouse. / Moorhouse
Pennings lists him (Vol 5 pg 55) as playing 1 game for Richmond in 1890 - though he wasn't in our initial research a decade ago.
Blueseum has him playing for Prahran, StKilda , Carlton and Richmond http://www.blueseum.org/Arthur+'Arty'+Moorhouse but doesn't have a bdm details. I notice they say he was the brother of James Moorehouse http://www.blueseum.org/James+'Jigger'+Moorhouse and have his dob as 1864 and hence is this player https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Morehouse
Therefore my two questions are :
1. Did Arthur Morehouse actually play a game for Richmond in 1890;
2. Would I be right to say that his full name is William Arthur Morehouse b: 1866 (father William, mother Harriet). d: unknown
I come to that conclusion based on James' details which has him as James Irving Morehouse b 1864 to same father and mother.
Pennings lists him (Vol 5 pg 55) as playing 1 game for Richmond in 1890 - though he wasn't in our initial research a decade ago.
Blueseum has him playing for Prahran, StKilda , Carlton and Richmond http://www.blueseum.org/Arthur+'Arty'+Moorhouse but doesn't have a bdm details. I notice they say he was the brother of James Moorehouse http://www.blueseum.org/James+'Jigger'+Moorhouse and have his dob as 1864 and hence is this player https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Morehouse
Therefore my two questions are :
1. Did Arthur Morehouse actually play a game for Richmond in 1890;
2. Would I be right to say that his full name is William Arthur Morehouse b: 1866 (father William, mother Harriet). d: unknown
I come to that conclusion based on James' details which has him as James Irving Morehouse b 1864 to same father and mother.
GreyCrow
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Arthur died 1931 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4421583 Vic BDM have the same parents listed . Moorhouse.
Rhett. There is a Moorhouse on the half-forward flank in the team list published in evening edition of The Herald
for 7 June match v St Kilda
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242102028
Died on 30 September according to this: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204337203
Edit: The mother (Harriet) died in 1897 and it says (mother of) James and Arthur Morehouse.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190645590
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Just regarding the brother James/Jim, interesting to note that AFL Tables / AustralianFootball.com have him as Joe. The AFL Historical Statistics website also had him as Joe.
Blueseum says "Blueseum had him named as Jack, but with the release of Volume 5 of 'Origins of Australian Football' which has him as James and other information we had, he has now been renamed as James." and "The AFL has the player as 'Jigger' Morehouse being born James Irving Morehouse on April 6, 1864 played for Prahran, St. Kilda (VFA) 1888-89 Carlton (VFA) 1890-93, Fremantle 1894-97 then St. Kilda 1898. The AFL Tables web site has a Jim Morehouse born April 6 1864, playing 10 V.F.L. games for St. Kilda in 1898". The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has him as Jim as well, so does Wikipedia.
*Paul*
spelling
Still chasing info about James Cullen. Have just quickly checked NSW BDMs and found following:
There is a marriage registration for a Mary Cullen to a James Dowley in 1882.
There is a death registration for a Mary Dowley which dates to on or about 26 November 1931.
Will check electoral rolls on Ancestry when I get back from work tonight.
Mmm..not showing up much to help, the range of years for NSW electoral rolls on Ancestry is quite small. There is an entry for a Mary Dowley in Adelaide Street, Blayney in 1930, but nobody with surname Cullen at that address. As noted earlier, Mary died in that district in late 1931.
Until a wider range of years in late 19th C and very early 20th C becomes available online, I suspect it will be difficult to search this further unless physically in a major NSW library which has m/fiche or m/film copies available.
On the other hand !!
There is a NSW death notice for a Thomas James Dowley (aged 39) in mid-December 1917 [i.e. born c 1878],
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15752290
NSW BDMs death record #14124/1917 give parents names as Thomas J and Mary, and as noted in an earlier post Mary Cullen married a Dowley in 1882.
Perhaps this is boy born as James Cullen on 9 June 1878 ?
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I'm bumping this up from last year ... with a query.
I'm going game by game through the club's history, and Minute Books and Annual Report, so bear with me with any queries that may seem frivolous.
In short: Did Alex Johnston play for Richmond in 1908. Or is it ia different Johnston/Johnson.
League records say that Alex Johnson played for Carlton in 1906, and Richmond in 1908 (Rd 2 and Rd 8)
Richmond Annual Report under 'Players' list A Johnson, not Johnston. There is also a W Johnson listed.
Now in practice match of April 18, as noted above there is a T Johnson (half-back, Lancefield and Carlton). That would seemingly correlate to the Alex Johnston who played for Carlton in 1906 and came from Lancefield area and who Blueseum say is a backman https://www.blueseum.org/Alex+Johnston
But there is also a A Johnson, a forward from Cheltenham, named in the same practice match. That spelling correlates to the Annual Report entry.
In the April 25th Practice match there is an A. Johnson kicking a goal for Richmond.
The debut for Richmond, Rd 2, in The Herald lists Johnson, playing back pocket. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242037925
His next (and last game) for Richmond, Rd 8 on June 13, in The Herald lists a Johnstone, playing forward pocket http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242029888
However, there is a permit published in paper for June 5 for a A. Johnson from Richmond to Nth Melbourne http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10671960
So in summary:
We've got a T. Johnson (half-back, Lancefield and Carlton), a A Johnson (Cheltenham forward), a W Johnson (in the Annual Report), a A Johnson (in the Annual Report).
Did Alex Johnson - the Carlton player play both games for Richmond, and its simply typos from the press.
Is it possible the A Johnson in Rd 2 (debut), is the same A Johnson in June 5th clearance. If so , he wouldn't have been allowed to play in the June 13 match for Richmond would he?
Did Alex Johnson - perhaps only play one game for Richmond, and a different Johnson play another.
Did Alex Johnson not play any games for Richmond and instead there are a different/or two different players.
If Alex Johnson is a backman, then is it possible he isn't the A Johnson who played forward in the two practice matches, or in the Rd 8 match
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Quick prelim search before heading offline to watch some footy...
There is no Johnson named in the North Melb team for match on 30 May 1908
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242038323
but for both 6 June match
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242023176/26265204
and 13 June match
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242029914/26265246
there is a Johnson named in North Melb team and named on the half-bank flank !
Right.. so if that is the A Johnson who played Rd 2 for Richmond and then got a clearance to Nth Melb in June; that may mean that Johnstone who played forward pocket in Rd 8 for Richmond is a completely different guy. And I wonder where the W. Johnson fits in as per the Annual Report
Yes Rhett. That was my impression too.
I have had a bit more of a glance at Trove this morning, but no further clues found to help clarify the Johnson/Johnstone questions.
It is unfortunate for our immediate needs that the local Richmond papers on Trove only cover the First World War years. Sometime over the next few months no doubt, someone from the "BigFooty research team" will have a chance to check the m/film copies at SLV.
I'm not sure whether this has been brought up before (I've lost track of this story!) but this has A. Johnston getting a permit to go from North Melbourne to Richmond (30 April 1908). Presumably the same player headed back to North just a few weeks later?!
Well that starts to build a case...
Played North Melbourne 1907
1908 April 18 - RFC practice match 'T Johnson' (halfback, Lancefield and Carlton)
Transferred to Richmond on 29 April 1908
Played 9 May 1908 with RFC (back pocket)
Transferred to Nth Melbourne 5 June 1908 (or one or two days earlier)
Played 6 June 1908, and 13 June 1908 with Nth Melbourne as a half back.
If that is him, then it is improbable that he played with Richmond on the same date 13 June 1908 (I'm assuming the Herald report is from that afternoon's match)
Meaning the 'Johnstone' listed as forward pocket for RFC 13 June 1908 (Rd 8) is not him, but an entirely new player.
To add fuel to this, the 1908 Annual Report lists W Johnson under the PLAYERS heading. It does also list a J Green , who isn't credited with a senior game yet and appears to be in Rd 11, 13, and Rd 15 squads (and maybe more) that year.
Hopefully the Richmond Guardian, or Richmond Australian sheds some light on it.
**FYI - State Library Newspaper room is closing on Thursday 23 Aug until end of September. It will reopen on Level 2A **
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