Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

Have we confirmed that Jack wore #17 in 1949? I take it that he did.

Thanks Oliver. No one has told me of any guernsey change, so keep as it I guess.

 

[ThePope]

In 1999, Jack (who died in 2001, notice in the Herald Sun; Jim died in 1965, notice in The Age) was presented with a Life Membership in Echuca - his time at Melbourne is mentioned.

...

James Anthony "Jim" Dorgan
born 26/11/30
died 30/1/2003

Rhett, did you mean Frank died in 1965, as didn't Jim die in 2003, or was 1965 a typo? I just found a ref that refers to Frank as being the son of Jim, so it could it be their Dad Jim who died in 1965?
From Ryerson I found a John Joseph Dorgan on 22 Feb 1965, but from the notice he doesn't seem to be closely related. Nothing matching on GMCT or SMCT.

I'm just about to create the Jack Dorgan wikipedia article and update the Jim one.

And just to confuse google, there is another Jack Dorgan currently playing for Williamstown in the VFL (grandson?)!

 

[rbartlett]

Rhett, did you mean Frank died in 1965, as didn't Jim die in 2003, or was 1965 a typo? I just found a ref that refers to Frank as being the son of Jim, so it could it be their Dad Jim who died in 1965?
From Ryerson I found a John Joseph Dorgan on 22 Feb 1965, but from the notice he doesn't seem to be closely related. Nothing matching on GMCT or SMCT.

I'm just about to create the Jack Dorgan wikipedia article and update the Jim one.

And just to confuse google, there is another Jack Dorgan currently playing for Williamstown in the VFL (grandson?)!

That's what was sent to me by Rodgers and Lynda Carroll wrote
Full paragraph here

"A family profile style piece in 1953 reads:

Jack Dorgan, who coached Echuca East to a premiership of the Echuca League last year, has been reappointed for 1954 at a meeting of the East committee.

For two years Dorgan played with Echuca, firstly as a centreman and later as a half-back flanker, and three years ago won the trophy as best and fairest in the Echuca team.

Last year he was a utility player for East and was to the fore in the pennant win, proving a sound coach and a good leader.

His brother Frank, in his second year as coach of Williamstown Rovers, won the premiership in the past season. [Frank is also mentioned as playing for Melbourne Seconds].

A third brother, Jim, played in the back pocket with South Melbourne this year, but after figuring prominently until the middle of the season had the misfortune to break his leg. Riverine Herald, 4 December 1953

Part of the problem, of course, is that some articles have Jack/John/Jim confused.

In 1999, Jack (who died in 2001, notice in the Herald Sun; Jim died in 1965, notice in The Age) was presented with a Life Membership in Echuca - his time at Melbourne is mentioned."

 

[GreyCrow]

Just a heads up that there could be an innaccuracy over Jack Rosser Essendon 1903. I am going to look at it more tomorrow but a quick look seems to indicate his first or known name could be A.

The Birth and death dates dont match any John Rosser.

1903 Team Photo (Joe Marr is in this also ) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article175400722

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Stuart Russell played for Hawthorn & Essendon and has DOB 16 July 1906 on wiki, AFL Tables & australianfootball.com

Ancestry trees all have 17 July 1906 and checking on NSW BDM site this date is correct
rbartlett can you add to spreadsheet please

 

[the croucher]

Greetings all. A fairly minor one here, but I think we should ask for height of Billy Mahoney (Geelong, St Kilda, Richmond) to be reduced in official records. AFL Tables, australianfootball.com and wiki entry show his height as 170cm (5ft 7in), and the latest ed of the Encyclopedia of VFL/AFL players shows it as 179 [suspect this is a simple typo in production the 0 being next to 9 on the keyboard !].

When position is specifically described in match reports he is noted as a lively "little" rover - therefore the physical description of him which appears in the Vic Police Gazette in Aug/Sept 1911 giving height as 5ft 4in means that his metric height should probably be 163cm.

Anyone else come across records showing his ht/wgt ?
Cannot see any ref to him as a WW1 soldier, so no enlistment papers to check.

 

[rbartlett]

FYI WhiteHartLane23 has access now to edit the online spreadsheet as we move forward to incorporate a process with the AFL.
So feel free to tag him and I for any additions.

 

[rbartlett]

From Stephen Rodgers -

"Jack Dorgan's h/w was 178/76

- Barb Cullen has ordered Walter Johnston's record from Canberra, to try to get more info on his death, and how it was regarded as war-related

- With Arch. Pratt, I ended up changing him to Archibald Herbert, but it really does seem to be a T, in the clearance book, that middle initial. (going by other examples). (see pic)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Having finished collating match summaries for 1917 VFL season and cross checking every game against existing match records I propose the following changes to the players credited with games:

Round | Team | Existing Player | Proposed Player | Sources
\2|Fitzroy|George Lambert|Horrie Jenkin| Geelong Advertiser ; Herald inclusions for Rd 3
\2|Fitzroy|Teddy Purcell|Alex Kennedy| Geelong Advertiser ; Herald inclusions for Rd 3
\4|Richmond|Edmund Hood|Jack Cronk| Herald line up; Richmond Guardian
\8|Fitzroy|Norm Barker|Chris Lethbridge| Herald line up; Argus match report
\12|South Melb|Jock Doherty|Alan O'Donoghue| Herald line up; Winner ; Football Record Rd 13 p10

Another possible change - however no player by the name Hansen is known to have played for Geelong - possibly meant to be Hodgins?
Johns is clearly named as an out by Geelong Advertiser, however Winner names Johns in best players. Think this one requires more research before a change can be proposed but would appreciate any other sources that shed light on this...

Round | Team | Existing Player | Proposed Player | Sources
\14|Geelong|Alwyn Johns|Hansen/Hodgins?| Geelong Advertiser

 

[35Daicos]

Having finished collating match summaries for 1917 VFL season and cross checking every game against existing match records I propose the following changes to the players credited with games:

Another possible change - however no player by the name Hansen is known to have played for Geelong - possibly meant to be Hodgins?
Johns is clearly named as an out by Geelong Advertiser, however Winner names Johns in best players. Think this one requires more research before a change can be proposed but would appreciate any other sources that shed light on this...

Round | Team | Existing Player | Proposed Player | Sources
\14|Geelong|Alwyn Johns|Hansen/Hodgins?| Geelong Advertiser

The Herald names the same line-up (post game) as we see in the official records. Yet for the next week's game it says "For Geelong, Gray and Peck were absent, and Hope and Johns were included." Hodgins is named in the side, and not mentioned as an "in", so it seems very likely that (as you've suggested) he played instead of Johns against Carlton in rd. 14.

 

[rbartlett]

Having finished collating match summaries for 1917 VFL season and cross checking every game against existing match records I propose the following changes to the players credited with games:

Round | Team | Existing Player | Proposed Player | Sources
\4|Richmond|Edmund Hood|Jack Cronk| Herald line up; Richmond Guardian

Hmmm.... regarding Hood to Cronk change.
Are you interpreting the "Rudd and Cronk not available today" line in the Guardian as indication that Cronk and Rudd played that Round 4 and therefore not available for 'today', meaning Round 5. (I do see in AFLTables Rudd and Cronk missing Rd 5.)

Richmond's 1917 AR lists Rudd playing 10 games for 1917 season, and Cronk 5 games - which tallies correctly with what the League currently has

 

[35Daicos]

Hmmm.... regarding Hood to Cronk change.
Are you interpreting the "Rudd and Cronk not available today" line in the Guardian as indication that Cronk and Rudd played that Round 4 and therefore not available for 'today', meaning Round 5. (I do see in AFLTables Rudd and Cronk missing Rd 5.)

Richmond's 1917 AR lists Rudd playing 10 games for 1917 season, and Cronk 5 games - which tallies correctly with what the League currently has

As well as naming Cronk in the lineup for the rd. 4 game, The Herald does also say this of the rd. 5 game: "Hislop, Bettles and Maybury replaced Briscoe, Rudd and Cronk in Richmond's team."

The Age also has Hood out of the rd. 4 team, as does The Australasian, though Cronk doesn't get a mention in either match report.

Edit: The Australasian article has both C. Byrne and W. Byrne playing for Fitzroy, while the records only have Bill (W.) Byrne in the side. The Argus also names the two of them. The Herald doesn't name C. Byrne in the rd. 4 team, or mention him as an "out" for the next game. Not sure what to make of that one, but it's certainly worth looking into!

 

[rbartlett]

As well as naming Cronk in the lineup for the rd. 4 game, The Herald does also say this of the rd. 5 game: "Hislop, Bettles and Maybury replaced Briscoe, Rudd and Cronk in Richmond's team."

The Age also has Hood out of the rd. 4 team.

And The Richmond Guardian preview for Rd 4 vs Fitzroy says that "Hoode (sic) cannot play owing to an injury".
So that, + The Age + The Herald all indicate Hood doesn't or did not play. So I now agree with the change (not that I'm the arbitor of Richmond info)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Hmmm.... regarding Hood to Cronk change.
Are you interpreting the "Rudd and Cronk not available today" line in the Guardian as indication that Cronk and Rudd played that Round 4 and therefore not available for 'today', meaning Round 5. (I do see in AFLTables Rudd and Cronk missing Rd 5.)

Richmond's 1917 AR lists Rudd playing 10 games for 1917 season, and Cronk 5 games - which tallies correctly with what the League currently has

It was more that Hood is explicitly listed as not playing : "Bettles, Bayliss and Hanley were a trio of top-pegs already confined to barracks, but when Captain Maybury and Hede and Hoode were also added to the list it didn't look for a time on Monday as if Richmond were going to get into the field at all"

 

[GreyCrow]

Just a heads up that there could be an innaccuracy over Jack Rosser Essendon 1903. I am going to look at it more tomorrow but a quick look seems to indicate his first or known name could be A.

The Birth and death dates dont match any John Rosser.

1903 Team Photo (Joe Marr is in this also ) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article175400722

Full name Jack Rosser Known as Jack Rosser Born 6 May 1884 Died 21 February 1945 (aged 60) This is quoted from australianfootball.com


Apologies for not getting back earlier.

It is a little harder than I thought. I am confident Jack Rosser has been misidentified, not only by name but by DOB and DOD. Yet I dont have an outstanding alternative.

My case for it NOT being Jack/John Rosser. The above link that identifies the player as A Rosser.

On the Australianfootball site they link Jack Rosser to 'cricketers that played football' and this is wrong because I think they have used this obit
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164447816

This gentleman is indeed Jack Rosser but he is

WA BDM
Rosser John Alfred Kenton Eleanor Fremantle 6398 1862


QLD BDM death
1926 C1056 John Rosser Alfred Rosser Ellen kenton

Also I cannot find an appropriate DOB/DOD link ie yes there is indeed a John Rosser born 1884. 2 born in 1884

This 1932 obit makes no mention of any football career http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69506851 and there seems to be no family notices. The lack of a football career doesnt necessarily mean it isnt the person either

The other John Rosser 1884 has no DOD

My proposal is Alexander Rosser 1880-1949 served AIF https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=261873 DOD 8/10/1949

Of the other Victorian Rosser births from 1870-1885 only one other A male is born. Arthur Chester 1878-1967 ( died Perth) and this suggests they are in Perth in 1900 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article157557941 This is his father


I propose Alexander Rosser instead of John Rosser

 

[35Daicos]

Full name Jack Rosser Known as Jack Rosser Born 6 May 1884 Died 21 February 1945 (aged 60) This is quoted from australianfootball.com

This probably doesn't help a lot (if the player has been mis-identified), but AFL Historical Statistics page, AFL Tables, Wikipedia and 'The Encyclopedia' all have 16 May 1884 for the DOB, so that might be a simple typo that australianfootball.com needs to correct.

 

[35Daicos]

Full name Jack Rosser Known as Jack Rosser Born 6 May 1884 Died 21 February 1945 (aged 60) This is quoted from australianfootball.com

My proposal is Alexander Rosser 1880-1949 served AIF https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=261873 DOD 8/10/1949

Of the other Victorian Rosser births from 1870-1885 only one other A male is born. Arthur Chester 1878-1967 ( died Perth) and this suggests they are in Perth in 1900 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article157557941 This is his father


I propose Alexander Rosser instead of John Rosser

I see the Alexander Rosser you have here was born at Geelong, according to that Army record. The Essendon player was meant to have been recruited from Newtown, which may count for something!

From his Army record:

The Historical Stats site had the player as 178cm/75kg, which is a fair bit out compared to this.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189485446

 

[rbartlett]

Devil's advocate... how do we know Rosser's first name is Jack. Its possible that decades ago the AFL chose "Jack" Rosser simply because his dob and dod fitted within the playing range. We know there was a need back then to fill in the gaps and there were guesses (I'm not criticising the body of work)

The PUNCH team photo says A. Rosser.
This June 1903 Sportsman article says Essendon's Rosser is "a place man from the Geelong Juniors"

 

[35Daicos]

It looks very likely that Bob Rush did not play for Collingwood in it's 1903 Rd. 12 game against Melbourne, and that his place was taken by Billy Spears.

The records have Rush in the team (not Spears). From The Herald:



The Herald on the Friday before the game says ""Wilson", Rowell, and Rush will stand down from the Collingwood team to-morrow, and the vacancies will be filled by Allan, McHale, and Pears."

The Age only mentions Rowell as an absentee, but does say "while Spiers, forward, played well enough to justify his inclusion in the team." Rush isn't mentioned.

The Argus says "Collingwood had a young player named Spier in their team, and he shaped very nicely,". Again, no mention of Rush.

The Australasian names Rowell and Wilson (referring to Bill Proudfoot) as being out from the previous week's team, not Rush, rather strangely. It does also say "A. Leach in the ruck gave untiring and generous aid, and F. Spier quite justified his inclusion in the team."

 

[GreyCrow]

Devil's advocate... how do we know Rosser's first name is Jack. Its possible that decades ago the AFL chose "Jack" Rosser simply because his dob and dod fitted within the playing range. We know there was a need back then to fill in the gaps and there were guesses (I'm not criticising the body of work)

The PUNCH team photo says A. Rosser.
This June 1903 Sportsman article says Essendon's Rosser is "a place man from the Geelong Juniors"

Also not criticising the job done , just spotting the Punch picture and asking the same questions. I think I have made a case that it isnt Jack

I also see the 1926 obit and think that may have been the original article that inserted Jack (my guess)

 

[GreyCrow]

Came across Charles 'Nipper' Young and decided to have a look around. I have some concerns over DOB and DOD as posted on most sites including australianfootball.com

Demonwiki and others listed DOB 7/12/1877 and DOD 31/3/1949

There are no 1877 births ( though I can be convinced registration happened in January) and no corresponding 1949 deaths. The only link to 31/3/1949 is this notice for Charles Young James http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206073440

So in looking for Nipper there are indeed many references to Nipper Young and C Young and Young etc. Demonwiki makes mention that Young leaves Melbourne for Adelaide after the 1904 season ie 1905 http://demonwiki.org/Charlie+Young

Looking on SA BDM I see a marriage in 1907 of a Charles Herbert Lockyer Young to Elsie Stubbs . There is also a corresponding death of this gentleman in 1914 aged 36.

There is indeed a Charles HL Young born in Kew in 1878 to Charles and Isabella Young. So that is exciting. Yet the CHL Young in Glenelg ( next to Brighton ) is a keen sailor. No mention of any footballing exploits in the SA papers.

As an example http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5416270 it does state his age as 33 but as seen this is incorrect.

Checking Victorian papers it seems there is no mention in the major papers apart from Argus and only an obit from mother
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7265251

Mother Isabella that matches DOB notice residence Rippon Lea, mentions Elsie and children , but also mentions late Father of Middle Brighton

Apologies : edit age on headstone from SA BDM
Brighton North YOUNG Charles Herbert L 36y 1914

rbartlett Supermercado thoughts?

 

[the croucher]

Came across Charles 'Nipper' Young and decided to have a look around. I have some concerns over DOB and DOD as posted on most sites including australianfootball.com

Demonwiki and others listed DOB 7/12/1877 and DOD 31/3/1949

There are no 1877 births ( though I can be convinced registration happened in January) and no corresponding 1949 deaths. The only link to 31/3/1949 is this notice for Charles Young James http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206073440

So in looking for Nipper there are indeed many references to Nipper Young and C Young and Young etc. Demonwiki makes mention that Young leaves Melbourne for Adelaide after the 1904 season ie 1905 http://demonwiki.org/Charlie+Young

Looking on SA BDM I see a marriage in 1907 of a Charles Herbert Lockyer Young to Elsie Stubbs . There is also a corresponding death of this gentleman in 1914 aged 36.

There is indeed a Charles HL Young born in Kew in 1878 to Charles and Isabella Young. So that is exciting. Yet the CHL Young in Glenelg ( next to Brighton ) is a keen sailor. No mention of any footballing exploits in the SA papers.

As an example http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5416270 it does state his age as 33 but as seen this is incorrect.

Checking Victorian papers it seems there is no mention in the major papers apart from Argus and only an obit from mother
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7265251

Mother Isabella that matches DOB notice residence Rippon Lea, mentions Elsie and children , but also mentions late Father of Middle Brighton

Apologies : edit age on headstone from SA BDM
Brighton North YOUNG Charles Herbert L 36y 1914

rbartlett Supermercado thoughts?

I think you have probably found him. Have had a bit of a scout over last hour or so and come up with these refs:

death notice in Adelaide (which gives age as 35, so perhaps that other one with 33 was a mis-reading of figures at the time)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204660440

and these from April 1905 where Melbourne players hold function prior to his departure for Adelaide
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9883790
and this one makes mention of his early football years being with Brighton
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165440464

mother Isabella died on 1 Nov 1933
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11707130

and the group portrait of Melbourne FC on this page mid-1903 includes him in the front row
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/20474003

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Came across Charles 'Nipper' Young and decided to have a look around. I have some concerns over DOB and DOD as posted on most sites including australianfootball.com

Demonwiki and others listed DOB 7/12/1877 and DOD 31/3/1949

There are no 1877 births ( though I can be convinced registration happened in January) and no corresponding 1949 deaths. The only link to 31/3/1949 is this notice for Charles Young James http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206073440

So in looking for Nipper there are indeed many references to Nipper Young and C Young and Young etc. Demonwiki makes mention that Young leaves Melbourne for Adelaide after the 1904 season ie 1905 http://demonwiki.org/Charlie+Young

Looking on SA BDM I see a marriage in 1907 of a Charles Herbert Lockyer Young to Elsie Stubbs . There is also a corresponding death of this gentleman in 1914 aged 36.

There is indeed a Charles HL Young born in Kew in 1878 to Charles and Isabella Young. So that is exciting. Yet the CHL Young in Glenelg ( next to Brighton ) is a keen sailor. No mention of any footballing exploits in the SA papers.

As an example http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5416270 it does state his age as 33 but as seen this is incorrect.

Checking Victorian papers it seems there is no mention in the major papers apart from Argus and only an obit from mother
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7265251

Mother Isabella that matches DOB notice residence Rippon Lea, mentions Elsie and children , but also mentions late Father of Middle Brighton

Apologies : edit age on headstone from SA BDM
Brighton North YOUNG Charles Herbert L 36y 1914

rbartlett Supermercado thoughts?

You've definitely found him - see obit of his father here http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19559906 - identifies his son as the "well-known Brighton and Melbourne footballer"

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

You've definitely found him - see obit of his father here http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19559906 - identifies his son as the "well-known Brighton and Melbourne footballer"

Full details for Charlie Young are:
Name: Charles Herbert Lockyer Young
Birth: 7 Dec 1877 in Kew, Victoria (note: exact date is from a baptism record - it is recorded as the birth date but sometimes these are actually baptism dates; matches existing DOB for player though)
Death: 22 Feb 1914 in Glenelg, South Australia

I could find no references to him ever playing in SA - this article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article166416858 identifies that he was known as being eligible to play with Norwood but I can't see that he ever played.

 

[the croucher]

Full details for Charlie Young are:
Name: Charles Herbert Lockyer Young
Birth: 7 Dec 1877 in Kew, Victoria (note: exact date is from a baptism record - it is recorded as the birth date but sometimes these are actually baptism dates; matches existing DOB for player though)
Death: 22 Feb 1914 in Glenelg, South Australia

I could find no references to him ever playing in SA - this article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article166416858 identifies that he was known as being eligible to play with Norwood but I can't see that he ever played.

Brilliant ! And here is a published birth notice confirming 7 Dec 1877 as DOB
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...|l-state=Victoria|||l-category=Family+Notices