Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[GreyCrow]

Tiptoeing through tulips I see.

At that time Dickens A Christmas Carol would have been in many people's minds

 

[rbartlett]

My funding for the digitisation of the 1907, 1908 and 1909 Richmond Guardian is complete.
They are now online at Trove.

 

[rbartlett]

Who coached Richmond in Rd 17 and Rd 18 of 1909.
Atm, AFLTables, based on information I gave to them a couple of years ago - has Charlie Taylor.
But now with the digitisation of 1909 Richmond Guardian, I reckon I may have misinterpreted the entry.

Aug 28th 1909 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article257212645 says that "Condon received a salary for carrying out the duties of "coach" but the man who did the work was Charlie Taylor". But the article goes on to praise Taylor for his duties throughout the year, and doesn't mention that he is replacing Condon for the last two games. Clearly there's animosity in this article towards Condon and it basically says Taylor was doing all the heavy lifting during the year when it came to training, and Condon just turned up and took the wage.
But after the club took the coaching role off Condon on Aug 24 1909, who coached the last two games. I dont think its right to say it was Taylor. one could argue in a general sense that the vice captain of the team (Lawson) could be the caretaker coach. Thoughts

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Id be interested in the Team Lists if there's any reference in the notes column (or whatever column lists "awards") as to whether there is any mention of a "Best and Fairest" for any Richmond player covering the years/pages 1919 -1927

Team List books only start from 1934, written by Percy Taylor.

 

[Supermercado]

Have found another discrepancy in a Melbourne/Collingwood goalkicker set.

Round 15, 1960

The Age (08/08/1960) - Ridley 5, Tunbridge 3, Johnson 2, Nilsson 2, Adams 1, Barassi 1, Dixon 1, Laidlaw 1 [This is the 'official' verdict - and I have a clipping from either the Sun or Herald that has the same list]

Sporting Globe (06/08/1960) - Ridley 5, Tunbridge 3, Johnson 3, Adams 1, Nilsson 1, Dixon 1, Barassi 1, Laidlaw 1

I would usually trust the paper that isn't put together at lightning speed after a match, but the Globe had heavy description of the match and their quarter by quarter scoring shows Bob Johnson kicking 2.0 in the third quarter + 1.0 in the last, and Ray Nilsson kicking 1.0 in the last - the article also describes Johnson kicking three goals - one from a downfield free after Frank Adams was clobbered, then a mark from an Adams kick at the end of the second quarter and a third straight after the start of the fourth from Geoff Tunbridge. It only mentions one Nilsson goal, a knock down from Barassi to Dixon, then to Nilsson.

Without video footage I doubt there's going to be any chance to corroborate this but it's definitely suspect.

 

[rbartlett]

FYI, I've created a Facebook page - www.facebook.com/rfchistorian as an avenue to collate, document Richmond history, and for supporters and researcher across facebook to reach out to me for information etc. Feel free to like the page if use that site.

 

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

I've just unearthed an error in the official list of Simpson Medal winners for WA state games.

1947 - Frank Jenkins (South Fremantle) is shown in WAFL published records and online as B.O.G. in a South Fremantle vs Essendon match.



The AFL season guide and Wikipedia have the same info:




Turns out, Jenkins (from South Fremantle FC) won the medal playing for the WA Second XVIII vs Essendon (played while the WA 1st XVIII were at the Hobart Carnival)...








Research has shown that Essendon played two matches on that WA tour, both against WA 2nd XVIII, none against Sth Freo:




I'll email the WAFL shortly but can anyone with the latest edition of the AFL season guide check the Simpson Medal section and confirm what they have there (my copy is about 5 seasons old!).

---------------------------

Jenkins being listed there for South Fremantle vs Essendon seemed logical because Lou Richards was listed as the inaugural state game winner in 1946 for B.O.G. in a Collingwood vs East Fremantle match.

Although Richards did get a Simpson Medal, it never should have been on the list because it was an end-of-season exhibition match, not a state game (the first image above shows the WAFL have dropped this game from their list).

 

[35Daicos]

I've just unearthed an error in the official list of Simpson Medal winners for WA state games.

1947 - Frank Jenkins (South Fremantle) is shown in WAFL published records and online as B.O.G. in a South Fremantle vs Essendon match.

View attachment 831867

The AFL season guide and Wikipedia have the same info:

View attachment 831868


Turns out, Jenkins (from South Fremantle FC) won the medal playing for the WA Second XVIII vs Essendon (played while the WA 1st XVIII were at the Hobart Carnival)...


View attachment 831876

View attachment 831877
View attachment 831878


Research has shown that Essendon played two matches on that WA tour, both against WA 2nd XVIII, none against Sth Freo:

View attachment 831883


I'll email the WAFL shortly but can anyone with the latest edition of the AFL season guide check the Simpson Medal section and confirm what they have there (my copy is about 5 seasons old!).

---------------------------

Jenkins being listed there for South Fremantle vs Essendon seemed logical because Lou Richards was listed as the inaugural state game winner in 1946 for B.O.G. in a Collingwood vs East Fremantle match.

Although Richards did get a Simpson Medal, it never should have been on the list because it was an end-of-season exhibition match, not a state game (the first image above shows the WAFL have dropped this game from their list).

It has:
SIMPSON MEDAL
Awarded to the best player in a WAFL Grand Final, and occasionally to an outstanding performer in an exhibition match.

1947 Frank Jenkins (South Frem)**

**=Exhibition match South Fremantle v Essendon

Also: 1946 Lou Richards (Collingwood)*

*=Exhibition match East Fremantle v Collingwood

 

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

It has:
SIMPSON MEDAL
Awarded to the best player in a WAFL Grand Final, and occasionally to an outstanding performer in an exhibition match.

1947 Frank Jenkins (South Frem)**

**=Exhibition match South Fremantle v Essendon

Also: 1946 Lou Richards (Collingwood)*

*=Exhibition match East Fremantle v Collingwood

Thanks for that, 35Daicos . I dug out the earliest copy I have (from back when they still had representative/interstate stats in the AFL guide)... turns out Richards and Jenkins were part of the Grand Final/Exhibition medallists list then as well.

Richards in 1946 should remain there but Jenkins in 1947 clearly won for a representative game so should be removed from that list (and any reference to a Sth Fremantle vs Essendon should be deleted with it as well).

I'll email the AFL guide as well as the WAFL (and pick up a new copy of the AFL Guide next trip back home to Oz )

 

[rbartlett]

FYI I've created a second tab on the Spreadsheet as 'Changes 2020' where we can begin to add changes from the last several months and future.
So if you think any changes need to go on there, just tag me the posts retroactively or in future posts.

 

[rbartlett]

Not sure if this is covered in Encyclopaedia Book - but George Ward (RFC 1909, 1 game) - seems to be the brother of "Jack" Ward who played 135 games for Port Melbourne from 1899 - 1908. https://australianfootball.com/players/player/jack+ward/17759.
As per the Richmond Guardian 5 June 1909


Wiki says George died 3 July 1951 (I'm assuming back in Tasmania).
Jack Ward has no death or birth details on AF

 

[rbartlett]

It's possible Richmond's quarter time score in Rd 2 1909 is wrong on AFLTables (and hence elsewhere that has used that data)
Currently they have Richmond 2.1.13
But The Age has the quarter time score as 2.3 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196116361 and seems to indicate Burns kicked their first behind.
The Richmond Guardian has quarter time score as 2.3 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article257211681 and says a behind was scored after Burns' goal (most likely Burns kicked that too as per The Age) and then says the W.Bourke placed a kicked just before the ball and scored a behind. (If we combine that with Burns' behind that gives us at least 2 behinds)
The Herald has quarter time score as 2.1 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242059128 and says that Heaney scored a behind in the first quarter.
The Australasian says Richmond's quarter time score was 15 to the opponents one. 15 would correlate to 2.3 score. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139693712

Using those 4 papers, we could ascertain that Richmond did kick 2.3, with the behinds being Burns, Heaney, W Bourke.

However,
The Argus lists 2.1 as quarter time http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10709636 but doesn't help us with any specific play by play.
The Leader says Richmond led by 12 pts at the first change of ends, which correlates with a 2.1 scoreline. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196899951 but they do not give a play by play of behinds kicked.
The Weekly Times has no play by play, but lists 2.1 as Richmond's quarter time score http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article222253827

Edit: I'll raise with Stephen R. but just checking I'm not missing anything obvious here am I.

 

[35Daicos]

Not sure if this is covered in Encyclopaedia Book - but George Ward (RFC 1909, 1 game) - seems to be the brother of "Jack" Ward who played 135 games for Port Melbourne from 1899 - 1908. https://australianfootball.com/players/player/jack+ward/17759.
As per the Richmond Guardian 5 June 1909
View attachment 832439

Wiki says George died 3 July 1951 (I'm assuming back in Tasmania).
Jack Ward has no death or birth details on AF

Seems a hard man to track down! I've had a couple of attempts lately at finding Tasmanian Birth and Death info and haven't been able to get anywhere with the site(s)! Perhaps he didn't die there, but I still can't find him.

I see you have him playing back in Tasmania again 1910-1912. G. G. Ward went from Richmond to Hawthorn late-April 1910: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184293604
G. G. Ward was on a ship that departed Launceston for Melbourne on 22 May 1909: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9983014
Since he played his one and only game for Richmond on 5 June 1909 that would fit well enough.

Yet this has G. G. Ward going from Port Melbourne to Abbotsford mid-May 1909: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242052068
Probably him here (playing one game): http://www.thevfaproject.org/pages/Players/Ward,_G__Ports09.php

It has this to say about Jack Ward on this page: Hawthorn Trades FC. Father and sister Died Jun1899
It looks like Jack went to Richmond at about the same time as his brother: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196122044 (27 May 1909)


https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10713445 (3 June 1909)


The Encyclopedia just calls him George, and only says "From City Launceston".

 

[35Daicos]

It has this to say about Jack Ward on this page: Hawthorn Trades FC. Father and sister Died Jun1899

It seems to be that George's family was living in Melbourne, so perhaps he was from there originally, and only went down to Tasmania later on?

 

[rbartlett]

I see you have him playing back in Tasmania again 1910-1912. G. G. Ward went from Richmond to Hawthorn late-April 1910: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184293604

The 1910-12 entry of Tassie is from Tigers of Old book in 1996. That information may not be correct.

 

[rbartlett]

Is this therefore the G.G.Ward in question perhaps. BDM 22445 (not saying he's the RFC player, but is he the G.G.Ward permitted from Rich to Haw.)
I mean if this guy below only has a brother called John "Jack", then perhaps we are looking at error in the League records.
At the moment they have George Ward debuting for Richmond in 1909 for his only game at 27 years of age. That's very old for a debutant from interstate.
This guy below would be 20 or so in 1909.
Consider too we know Stephen R. had very little to go on. Perhaps he assumed he was born in Tassie because the guy "came from Tassie". And as such searched for "George Ward" in Tassie, when infact he is Melbourne born all along.

 

[35Daicos]

Is this therefore the G.G.Ward in question perhaps. BDM 22445 (not saying he's the RFC player, but is he the G.G.Ward permitted from Rich to Haw.)View attachment 832487

That's obviously a match for the parents of Jack Ward, who is meant to be the brother of George. Now that is interesting! Certainly not an 1882 birth, if it is your 1909 player.

WARD George Grant : Service Number - 2485 : Place of Birth - Melbourne VIC : Place of Enlistment - Melbourne VIC : Next of Kin - (Wife) WARD Gladys Isabell Rose | Discovering Anzacs | National Archives of Australia and Archives NZ

discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au

This is from 2 February 1928: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3908035

Making sure you're not a bot!

George Grant Ward was a carpenter according to his Army records. He died a couple of weeks later. I wonder if the blow he received back in November 1927 ultimately caused his death?

Here's the death reg.:

Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 20 Feb 1928

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[rbartlett]

To me its starting to look like the wrong George Ward has been identified for decades. And the reason why Jack Ward isnt listed in George's death notice is he must have died by George.
But I'm trying to find Jack Ward's details to confirm he had a brother George.

Is this possibly Jack's death:

Which leads us to this death notice for 8 April 1919

But George isn't listed in the notice. It does say Jack was brother of (what looks to me ) Charles.

 

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

FYI I've created a second tab on the Spreadsheet as 'Changes 2020' where we can begin to add changes from the last several months and future.
So if you think any changes need to go on there, just tag me the posts retroactively or in future posts.

Thanks, Rhett. Will do

 

[35Daicos]

To me its starting to look like the wrong George Ward has been identified for decades. And the reason why Jack Ward isnt listed in George's death notice is he must have died by George.
But I'm trying to find Jack Ward's details to confirm he had a brother George.

Is this possibly Jack's death:
View attachment 832608
Which leads us to this death notice for 8 April 1919
View attachment 832609
But George isn't listed in the notice. It does say Jack was brother of (what looks to me ) Charles.

There appears to be no doubt the records have had the wrong George all along. It is likely (as you suggested) the "Tasmanian connection" caused the confusion.

That has to be Jack's death. The parents are (the late) Charles Frederick Ward (who died in 1899) and Emma Ocean. The same parents are shown in the Vic BDM details for George Grant Ward, who died in 1928 (see post above yours).

This shows John Nicholson Ward was born in Tasmania (in 1877). The family must have moved to Victoria by the time George was born (in c. August 1889).


Here's another death notice for John/Jack, and George is one of many siblings named: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155213131

 

[rbartlett]

There appears to be no doubt the records have had the wrong George all along. It is likely (as you suggested) the "Tasmanian connection" caused the confusion.

That has to be Jack's death. The parents are (the late) Charles Frederick Ward (who died in 1899) and Emma Ocean. The same parents are shown in the Vic BDM details for George Grant Ward, who died in 1928 (see post above yours).

This shows John Nicholson Ward was born in Tasmania (in 1877). The family must have moved to Victoria by the time George was born (in c. August 1889).

Here's another death notice for John/Jack, and George is one of many siblings named: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155213131

Thanks all.
I'll send this to Stephen R, and suggest to him George G Ward is the player in question, not the George Ward from Tassie.

 

[rbartlett]

Roland Duncan.
Just an fyi, Roland Duncan played for Coll in 1900. Then went to Richmond in 1902 and played in our VFA premiership
Tigers of Old book (pub 1996) says he would later play for Beverley in 1907-08 then play for Richmond VFL 1 game in 1909.
But that's impossible, as Roland was born in 1879, and would have been 30 in 1909. The Beverley player is a new recruit and atm we believe him to be Robert Duncan as per wiki.
So just an fyi incase you were using Tigers of Old as a reference.

Side note: Roland Ramsay Duncan's family is eligible for a RFC posthumous Life Membership due to the 1902 flag.
According to this 1960s newsletter letter looks like he married Edith Guinevere Duncan.
Does anyone have access to Ancestry (I should really buy a subscription). Cause I see Edith has a tree so thought it might show a current relative.

Edit: changed 1889 to 1879

 

[35Daicos]

Roland Duncan.

Side note: Roland Ramsay Duncan's family is eligible for a RFC posthumous Life Membership due to the 1902 flag.
According to this 1960s newsletter letter looks like he married Edith Guinevere Duncan.
Does anyone have access to Ancestry (I should really buy a subscription). Cause I see Edith has a tree so thought it might show a current relative.

This seems to suggest there were no children from that marriage:

I don't have Ancestry, unfortunately.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

This seems to suggest there were no children from that marriage:
View attachment 832736
I don't have Ancestry, unfortunately.

Ancestry trees confirm no kids.

 

[rbartlett]

Ah dammit. Thanks for checking.