Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Long story short- 35Daicos has discovered that the currently identified Roy Taylor (RFC 1916-1918) born 6 August 1891, dying 17 March 1969 is incorrect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Taylor_(footballer)

Based on his discovery in Richmond Guardian of 1919 that lists Roy's parents , and his soon-to-be wife https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/255876528 that correct attribution would now be Roy Taylor, born 1896 in Norwood, South Australia, dying Coburg 1971, age 75.

Here's a photo from THAT Roy's wedding day, and corresponding photo from an earlier 1917 RFC team.
Screen Shot 2020-04-30 at 10.01.32 pm.png Screen Shot 2020-04-30 at 10.02.07 pm.png

I've advisedStephen Rodgers and awaiting his reply. But I'm comfortable to change in our Richmond archives.
I'll place it on the spreadsheet as well. And at some point it will need to be changed on the Wiki, AustralianFootball, AFLTables.
 
I'm working through my 19 outstanding possible war players, and one of them is
L "Digger" Scott, a jockey from Violet Town, who played a practice match in 1945.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189780113
But I cant tell if he's called "Digger" because he was at war, or its just a nickname.
I'm leaning toward he has no war connection , because this says he is 17 in 1945 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178595450 which probably makes him to young to have served.
This says he is the son of Violet Town trainer Tom J Scott http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65495281
 

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I'm working through my 19 outstanding possible war players, and one of them is
L "Digger" Scott, a jockey from Violet Town, who played a practice match in 1945.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189780113
But I cant tell if he's called "Digger" because he was at war, or its just a nickname.
I'm leaning toward he has no war connection , because this says he is 17 in 1945 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178595450 which probably makes him to young to have served.
This says he is the son of Violet Town trainer Tom J Scott http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65495281
From the 1954 electoral roll:
1588419535763.png

1588419662548.png
It looks like the father was also known as "Digger": https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65561419
1588420338337.png
 
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Some clarification and correction for a past Collingwood player, previously listed on our Forever webpage as "Johnny Dunn" who played 3 games in June 1903 and we had him coming from Northcote. https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/johnny-dunn/

There was no entry for him in the official VFL Permit records, and I could find no reference to Dunn to or from Northcote anywhere so don't know where that came from.

I discovered a news article from 9 June 1903 which referred to Jack Dunn from Corowa going down to Collingwood https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...&searchLimits=l-usertag=Dunn|||sortby=dateAsc
1588874601895.png

I found other articles which match the 3 consecutive rds he played for Collingwood in June 1903 where he was listed in the best players for 2 of them. It would appear he was called up as a Full Back to replace Bill Proudfoot whilst the police ban on their members playing football was in force.

Another article from Corowa reflecting his return to Corowa after his last Collingwood game, returning to play for Border United. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...&searchLimits=l-usertag=Dunn|||sortby=dateAsc
1588874810901.png

I have made contact with Jack Dunn's descendants (who were unaware of his Collingwood stint) and will have a photo for our Forever profile shortly. The correct DOB is 9 Jun 1877 and DOD 30 June 1963.

Once I have complete profile detailed we will seek formal correction update from AFL and advise for others to update.
 
I'm looking through Alan McDonald (RFC) service record, and was wondering if anyone could make out what the place is written in the "PLACE OF CASUALTY" column on the first line at the top of the page for 30.6.1942 It's something like Mil District, or Hil District, or Mic District. I'm guessing it was somewhere in QLD.
I know the column before it says Evacuated to Ambulance - URTI (Upper Respiratory Tract Infection), and that further down in Place of Casualty- QLD L of Area refers to Queensland Lines of Communications Area.
Screen Shot 2020-05-08 at 3.44.53 pm.png
 
I'm looking through Alan McDonald (RFC) service record, and was wondering if anyone could make out what the place is written in the "PLACE OF CASUALTY" column on the first line at the top of the page for 30.6.1942 It's something like Mil District, or Hil District, or Mic District. I'm guessing it was somewhere in QLD.
I know the column before it says Evacuated to Ambulance - URTI (Upper Respiratory Tract Infection), and that further down in Place of Casualty- QLD L of Area refers to Queensland Lines of Communications Area.
View attachment 872187
Is there a previous page to this one with similar list?
 
Page 27 of Rd 2 1924 Footy Record says
"At Richmond last saturday Sutton played in Nicholson's guernsey, the fault being due to the fact Sutton's guernsey had been left behind"
So at the moment, Sutton (Sth) is credited with No. 30 https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1924/141619240426.html
but that would indicate if he wore Nicholson's guernsey he would be wearing Nicholson's number.
Now there was an Alex Nicholson 1921-22 who wore No. 18 https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alex_Nicholson.html so it may mean that. (Which would mean Scanlan didn't wear 18 in Rd 1 1924)
unless they meant Charlie Nicholls who played 1924 season from Rd 3 onwards
 
Page 27 of Rd 2 1924 Footy Record says
"At Richmond last saturday Sutton played in Nicholson's guernsey, the fault being due to the fact Sutton's guernsey had been left behind"
So at the moment, Sutton (Sth) is credited with No. 30 https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1924/141619240426.html
but that would indicate if he wore Nicholson's guernsey he would be wearing Nicholson's number.
Now there was an Alex Nicholson 1921-22 who wore No. 18 https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alex_Nicholson.html so it may mean that. (Which would mean Scanlan didn't wear 18 in Rd 1 1924)
unless they meant Charlie Nicholls who played 1924 season from Rd 3 onwards
It looks as if Nicholson would have played (as a late replacement) in the Rd. 1 game (the week before), but he was late getting to the ground: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164445040 (3 May 1924)
1589003955184.png
So he was still at the club, despite not having played senior football since mid-1922.

This is in the Rd. 10 1924 Football Record, and probably solves the mystery!:
1589003384938.png
Nicholson was also listed as no. 32 in the Rd. 12 Record (he didn't play in either of those games).
 
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Rd 5 1920 Rich vs Coll at Punt Road crowd discovered . It was 30,000

Australasian and Argus each say 30,000+, The Age says 20,000+ but match reports clearly indicate the ground was packed (and a verandah collapsed under weight of crowd) so that leans more to the 30,000 number.
Added to spreadsheet

Strangely I cant locate the Rd 4 vs Geel 1920 match at Geelong despite reports saying it also was a huge crowd.

Edit:
Rd 6 1920 Rich vs Sth crowd discovered. Argus and Weekly Times says 18,000, Australasian says 20,000. Have added 18,000 - 20,000 to spreadsheet.

Edit:
Rd 7 1920 Rich vs Melb crowd discovered. The Argus says 31,000. Have added to spreadsheet.
 
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Long story short, found a reel of Collingwood colour footage from 1970-1974. Have digitised and put online.
Ill post the links/vids here. Might somehow help with research, or may bring up some inconsistencies.

Coll vs Melb Rd 5 1970 at Waverley
(3rd ever match at VFL Park)




Vic vs Wa 1973 at Waverley


StK vs Coll Rd 4 1973 at Waverley (Anzac Day)



Rich vs Coll Rd 9 1973
(KB was injured with a broken hand playing for Vic the week, so he did not play in this game. Instead, he was the Richmond runner!)




Coll v Nth Rd 16 1973 at Waverley



Haw vs Coll Rd 19 1973 at Glenferrie Oval



Haw vs Coll Rd 21 1973
(Peter Hudson's "Helicopter" match)



Collingwood training prior to 1973 Final Series (very Richmondy-feel about this footage)
 
The official records have this for Geelong 1906 player Tom Gibney:
1590033487815.png

1590033590782.png

His birth was registered in 1886:
1590033688972.png
He was also said to have been 86 when he died ^>: https://billiongraves.com/grave/Thomas-Francis-Gibney/8419193
1590033840817.png
This does suggest an 1886 birth, as he wouldn't have been 86 (when he died) if born October 1887.
 
Edit:
Rd 7 1920 Rich vs Melb crowd discovered. The Argus says 31,000. Have added to spreadsheet.

We have that game down as 27,712. Having a quick look I imagine we got that number from Grand Finals: The Stories Behind the Premier Teams of the Victorian Football League. 1897-1938, Volume 1 (Page 248)


Not sure what their source was though.
 
Thought I'd just ask if anyone has a VHS to DVD machine they no longer want. Or even a VHS machine.
I have quite a few VHS tapes, and trying to find the best way to get them onto DVD, or mp4.
Worst case, I can send them off to get done professionally, but that will prob cost $30 each tape or so. DM me if you can help
 
Possible goal discrepancy.
Rd 9 1916 Richmond vs Carlton.
The Herald 14 July 1916 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242375134 says Richmond's goalkickers were Richardson (2), Bayliss (2), Moffatt (1), Briscoe (1).
AFL Tables has Percy Martini (1), instead of Briscoe (1).
Screen Shot 2020-06-11 at 11.21.26 pm.png

Then later in the week This Herald article on 21 July 1916 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242376158 says that the Richmond Secretary himself has the goalkickers as Richardson (2), Derrick (1), Bayliss (2), Moffatt (1).
Currently AFLTables has Percy Martini (1) instead of Derrick (1).
Screen Shot 2020-06-11 at 11.18.23 pm.png

The Footy Record review lists all the goals in the order they were kicked: Tallying that up they have (Richardson 2), (Bayliss 2), Moffatt (1), Briscoe (1).
AFL Tables has Martini (1), instead of Briscoe (1)
Screen Shot 2020-06-11 at 11.26.17 pm.png

Comparing the TRUE BOOT ARTISTS page at the end of the Rd 9 (showing all goals up to an incl Rd 8) and then Rd 10 (showing all up to and including Rd 9)
Martini stays on 14 goals (but looks to be discrepancy with that too. Ive raised that in separate post below.)
Bayliss goes from 9 to 11 goals (which is correct)
Richardson goes from 5 to 7 (which is correct)
Moffatt from 2 to 3 goals (which is correct)
Derrick stays on 4 a
Briscoe goes from 0 to 1 goal

So it seems Martini didnt goal in that Rd 9 1916 match.
I was leaning towards Derrick considering that information came from the club secretary himself.
But the Herald and Footy Record are quite specific as to who kicked the goals (and Record lists in what order they were kicked) and both credit Briscoe.

So is Martini out and Briscoe in for a goal.
or Martini out and Derrick in for a goal
 
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Separate query relating to 1916.
Percy Martini goal discrepancy?
Footy Record has him 14 goals after Round 8, but AFLTables has him 15 after Round 8 (discrepancy occurs for the Rd 8 v Fitz match - did he kick 1 or 2 gls)
Then Footy Record has him on 14 goals after Round 9 (meaning he didnt goal in Rd 9), but AFLTables list him as 16 goals after Rd 9).
We know from the prev post I'm certain he didnt score in Rd 9 vs Carlton. So that just leaves a query as to how many he scored in Rd 8 v Fitz.

Club's Annual Report lists him on 22 goals at season's end, winning club goalkicking.
So at the least, that would be changed to 21 goals (because he didnt goal in Rd 9 vs Carlton as per prev post).
He may also lose another goal if we find he only scored 1 gl in Rd 8 not 2.
 
For the AFL Tables guy, a couple of number fixes for these duplicates I found for 1985 the whole decade:

Essendon (1980):
Number 36 for both Denis Scanlon and Michael Davis
Change: Number 46, Michael Davis (AFL Footy Record 1980, R7 & R15)

Footscray (1980):
Number 28 for both Alan McConnell and Matt Byrachevski
Number 19 for both Gordon Polson and Phil Bradmore
Number 11 for both Mick Kelly and Terry De Koning
Number 8 for both Ian Morrison and Matt Johnson
Change: Number 18, Phil Bradmore, Number 48, Terry De Koning, Number 41, Matt Johnson (AFL Footy Record 1980, R21). Byrachevski wore number 28 in his three senior games, and Alan McConnell took the number afterwards (AFL Footy Record 1980, R10 & R21).

Hawthorn (1980):
Number 19 for both Alan Goad and Mark Scott
Change: Number 40, Mark Scott (Todman)

Melbourne (1980):
Number 1 for both Greg Wells and Garry Baker
Change: No change. The 1980 AFL Tables team lists incorrectly shows Wells having number 1 (instead of number 11). He was traded to Carlton mid-season where he then wore number 1 (Todman)

St. Kilda (1980):
Number 32 for both Robbie Muir and Peter Fitzpatrick
Number 29 for both Russell Greene and Tony King
Number 28 for both Simon Meehan and Neil MacLeod
Number 19 for Mark Scott, Con Gorozidis, and Malcolm Scott
Change: Hawthorn and St. Kilda engineered a mid-season deal, trading Mark Scott and Tony King for Russell Greene. Since Greene and King both wore number 29, there's no problem here (Todman). Robbie Muir wore number 32 throughout 1980, and Fitzpatrick was traded to St Kilda after Muir had left to play in the SANFL. Fitzpatrick wore number 32 in the reserves (AFL Footy Record 1980, R15), so he probably kept that number in the seniors. Gorozidis was known to have number 19 at some point (AFL Footy Record 1980, R6), but later wore number 48 in the reserves after playing one senior game that season (AFL Footy Record 1980, R15). One of the M. Scotts wore number 19 in the reserves (AFL Footy Record 1980, R16), and Mark Scott wore number 19 for the seniors, and Simon Meehan wore number 28 in the reserves (AFL Footy Record 1980, R17).

Carlton (1981):
Number 7 for both Wayne Johnston and Peter Francis
Change: Number 47, Peter Francis, he wore 7 when traded to Fitzroy mid-season (AFL Footy Record 1981, R4)

Collingwood (1981):
Number 26 for both Ray Byrne and Des Herbert
Number 18 for both David Young and Leigh Carlson
Change: Number 29, Leigh Carlson, he wore 18 when traded to Fitzroy mid-season (AFL Footy Record 1981, R2). Number 47, Des Herbert, he wore 26 when traded to Fitzroy mid-season (AFL Footy Record 1981, R2).

Fitzroy (1981):
Number 3 for both Grant Lawrie and John Cassin
Change: Number 21, John Cassin. He wore number 3 at North Melbourne before his mid-season trade to Fitzroy (AFL Footy Record 1981, R20)

Footscray (1981):
Number 19 for both Phil Bradmore and Gordon Polson
Change: Number 18, Phil Bradmore (AFL Footy Record 1981, R1)

Geelong (1981):
Number 27 for both Brian Peake and Craig Dowsett
Number 14 for both David Clarke and Glenn Middlemiss
Change: Probably no change for Dowsett and Peake. Dowsett wore 27 throughout his career and was still wearing number 27 in the reserves before Peake's arrival (AFL Footy Record 1981, R7). Number 2, Glenn Middlemiss, he wore 14 when he was traded to St. Kilda mid-season (AFL Footy Record 1981, R7)

Melbourne (1981):
Number 38 for both Tony Barnes and Shane Braddy
Change: Probably no change. Barnes wore 38 for the first three rounds and retired, Braddy probably took number 38 for his only two games later in the season.

North Melbourne (1981):
Number 28 for both Brian Wilson and Maurice Boyse
Change: Boyse probably wore number 10 before his mid-season trade to South Melbourne.

South Melbourne (1981):
Number 41 for both Shane Morwood and Stephen Eather
Number 28 for Neville Fields, Maurice Boyse, and Michael Smith
Number 3 for both Noel Jenkinson and Max Kruse
Change: Number 34, Max Kruse, which fits with him wearing 34 in the two seasons before and after 1981 (AFL Footy Record 1981, R5). Number 37, Stephen Eather (AFL Footy Record 1981, R5). Neville Fields is correctly recorded as wearing number 12 on his player page, so him wearing number 28 is a bug caused by him wearing that when he was traded to Essendon mid-season. Maurice Boyse probably wore number 10 at North Melbourne before his mid-season trade to South Melbourne. Michael Smith wore number 28 (AFL Footy Record 1981, R5). In the case of Shane Morwood and Stephen Eather, it's hard to tell. Eather wore number 41 in 1980, and Shane Morwood wore number 41 in 1982. They were never teammates and came within a week (R18 to R19) of playing alongside each other. I'm inclined to think Eather had a different number in 1981.

Carlton (1982):
Number 6 for both Mario Bortolotto and Rod Waddell
Change: Number 10, Rod Waddell. He took number 6 when he was traded to Geelong mid-season (AFL Footy Record 1982, R1)

Fitzroy (1982):
Number 21 for both Garry Sidebottom and John Cassin
Change: No change. Sidebottom moved to Fitzroy and played out the last seven round, where he took Cassin's number after he retired.

Geelong (1982):
Number 5 for both Gary Malarkey and Tommy Floyd
Change: Number 37, Tommy Floyd. He took number 5 when he was traded to Collingwood mid-season. On his player page, it shows up correctly as number 37. (AFL Footy Record 1982, R10)

Carlton (1983):
Number 21 for both Rod Austin and Robert Klomp
Change: Number 22, Robert Klomp. He took number 21 when he was traded to Footscray mid-season (AFL Tables)

Collingwood (1983):
Number 23 for both Rene Kink and Wes Fellowes
Change: Number 36, Rene Kink. He took number 23 when he was traded to Essendon mid-season. It also shows number 36 correctly on his player page.

Essendon (1983):
Number 30 for both Kevin Walsh and Alan Reid
Number 2 for both Grant Fowler and Bryan Wood
Change: Number 2, Alan Reid. He took the number 30 when he was traded to Geelong mid-season (AFL Footy Record 1983, R2), while his number 2 ended up with Bryan Wood. Number 23, Grant Fowler (AFL Footy Record 1983, R2). He took number 2 when he was traded to Hawthorn mid-season.

Fitzroy (1983):
Number 25 for both Michael Nettlefold and Terry O'Neill
Number 19 for both David McMahon and Mark Scott
Change: Number 23, Mark Scott (AFL Footy Record 1983, Week 1 QF). Probably no change for O'Neill and Nettlefold. O'Neill wore number 25 at Fitzroy until he retired midway through the season. Mid-season trades saw Nettlefold keep his number 25 from St. Kilda.

Geelong (1983):
Number 34 for both Basil Flynn and Zane Taylor
Change: Probably no change. Both wore 34 throughout their short careers, though Flynn did wear number 45 in the reserves (AFL Footy Record 1983, R4) and switched to number 34 later (AFL Footy Record 1983, R15).

North Melbourne (1983):
Number 25 for both Xavier Tanner and Donald McDonald
Change: Number 43, Donald McDonald (AFL Footy Record 1983, R1)

St Kilda (1983):
Number 25 for both Andrew Cross and Michael Nettlefold
Change: No change. Nettlefold was traded to Fitzroy mid-season and kept his number 25 between clubs. Cross reappeared in the seniors in Round 15 after a three year absence and took Nettlefold's number 25.

Collingwood (1984):
Number 42 for both Darren Millane and Anthony Russell
Number 31 for both Mark Weideman and Ian McMullin
Change: Researching

Essendon (1984):
Number 24 for both Brian Winton and Stephen Copping
Number 16 for both Peter Banfield and Mark Hannebery
Change: Researching

Footscray (1984):
Number 38 for both Bruce Duperouzel and Stephen Lunn
Change: Researching

Geelong (1984):
Number 46 for both Garry Johns and Steve Hocking
Number 6 for both Gary Malarkey and Rod Waddell
Change: Researching

Melbourne (1984):
Number 18 for both Glenn McLean and Greg Hutchison
Change: Researching

Richmond (1984):
Number 13 for both Phil Egan and Stephen Pirrie
Change: Researching

Sydney (1984):
Number 50 for both Gary Frangalas and Jamie Siddons
Change: Researching

Carlton (1985):
Number 28 for both Spiro Kourkoumelis and Mark Buckley
Change: Mark Buckley, number 4 (Blueseum)

Essendon (1985)
Number 23 for both Rene Kink and Trevor Spencer
Change: Trevor Spencer, number 40 (AFL Footy Record 1985, R19)

Richmond (1985)
Number 15 for both Tim Barling and Dan Foley
Change: Dan Foley, number 36 (AFL Footy Record 1985, R12)

St. Kilda (1985)
Number 25 for both Andy Bennett and John Bennett
Change: Andy Bennett, number 22 (AFL Footy Record 1985, R15)

Sydney (1985)
Number 55 for both John Favier and Anthony Sinclair
Change: John Favier, number 49 (AFL Footy Record 1985, R19)

Collingwood (1986):
Number 36 for both Dannie Seow and Peter Bradbury
Number 17 for both Michael Lockman and Michael Richardson
Change: Researching

Essendon (1986):
Number 40 for both Paul Hamilton and Trevor Spencer
Number 25 for both Roger Merrett and Stephen Carey
Change: Researching

Fitzroy (1986):
Number 58 for both Mark Dwyer and Jim Wynd
Number 15 for both Graeme Hinchen and Peter McCormack
Change: Researching

Footscray (1986):
Number 25 for both Craig Somerville and Michael Rolfe
Number 20 for both Andy Preston and Robert Evans
Change: Researching

Geelong (1986):
Number 49 for both John Hoiles and John Fitzgerald
Number 25 for both Stephen Carey and Mark Jackson
Change: Researching

Melbourne (1986):
Number 43 for both Paul Payne and Len Gandini
Change: Researching

North Melbourne (1986):
Number 14 for both Darren Crocker and Ben Buckley
Change: Researching

Brisbane Bears (1987):
Number 6 for both Dale Dickson and Darryl Cox
Change: Researching

Collingwood (1987):
Number 41 for both Mark Perkins and Alan Richardson
Number 23 for both Tim Harrington and Peter Adams
Change: Number 13, Alan Richardson (AFL Footy Record 1987, R17). It seems that both Adams and Harrington wore 23, but according to Collingwood Forever, Harrington also wore 48 when playing for Collingwood, a number not recorded by AFL Tables. Adams and Harrington were teammates in just one game: Round 9, which wound up being Adams's last game. In Harrington's first game as a Magpie, he marks at 4:20, wearing the number 48, confirming that he definitely wore 48 for at least one or two games.

Fitzroy (1987):
Number 2 for both Keith Thomas and Allan Sidebottom
Change: Number 22, Allan Sidebottom (AFL Footy Record 1987, R15)

Geelong (1987):
Number 6 for both Dwayne Russell and Shane Williams
Change: Number 8, Shane Williams (AFL Footy Record 1987, R5)

Melbourne (1987):
Number 29 for both Dean Chiron and Peter Kiel
Change: No change. Kiel played his only game for Melbourne in Round 5. Chiron played out most of the rest of the season from Round 16. The 1987 Footy Records for Rounds 2 and 19 both list Kiel and Chiron as 29.

St Kilda (1987):
Number 36 for both Robert Neal and Russell Jeffrey
Change: Number 35, Robert Neal (AFL Footy Record 1987, R14)

Richmond (1988):
Number 6 for both David Palm and Mark Eustice
Change: Number 4, Mark Eustice (AFL Footy Record 1988, R6)

St Kilda (1988):
Number 26 for both Ian Muller and Kain Taylor
Change: Number 25, Ian Muller (Muller marks at 9:20, also fits with Muller known to wear 25 in the following seasons)


Duplicates may not necessarily mean a mistake in some cases. Will check some out later.
 
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For the AFL Tables guy:

On the St Kilda team list for 1985, both Andy Bennett and John Bennett are recorded as wearing number 25. Naturally I can assume the identical surname played a part in this.

A quick check of the digitised footy records confirms that Andy Bennett's actual number was 22.
This is how it looked on the old AFL Historical Statistics site, so the problem seems to have come from there initially:
1592368685884.png
 

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