Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

Am I missing something here? Is there actually anything more to it or are we just going off Torch’s word? It surely sets a dangerous precedent if the AFL is happy to amend records based off people’s recollections from events more than 50 years ago

They did well and truly research this (that was done by Stephen Rodgers), and didn't just take the word of an ex-player. I simply left most of that part of the email out, thinking that as this change had been made by the AFL that folks here would only be interested in the end result, and not want a blow-by-blow account of what they found! Perhaps the way I worded it gave the wrong impression.

Anyway, here's (almost all of) what Steve had to say!:

 

[Gibbsy]

They did well and truly research this (that was done by Stephen Rodgers), and didn't just take the word of an ex-player. I simply left most of that part of the email out, thinking that as this change had been made by the AFL that folks here would only be interested in the end result, and not want a blow-by-blow account of what they found! Perhaps the way I worded it gave the wrong impression.

Anyway, here's (almost all of) what Steve had to say!:
View attachment 1019002
View attachment 1018999

too much detail is never enough – thanks mate!

 

[35Daicos]

too much detail is never enough – thanks mate!

I'll try to be more thorough in the future!!

 

[35Daicos]

I've just had it confirmed from a contact at Collingwood that the DOB of former Magpie (and Richmond) player Des Negri has been altered from 15 November 1925 to 15 November 1923. The AFL will now have this in their records. Collingwood Forever has been updated accordingly:

AFL Tables - Des Negri - Stats - Statistics
Australian Football - Des Negri - Player Bio
Des Negri - Wikipedia
If someone changes this on Wikipedia could they please amend this bit (Knott) as well!:


*Paul*
Oliver Gigacz
rbartlett

This was investigated after a discrepancy was noticed between the DOB shown on his former school's website and that shown in the AFL records:

That investigation found that the school had the right DOB (though they got his career goals wrong)!

 

[Oliver G]

It looks pretty clear that there's an error in the official records with Melbourne's 1908 Rd. 17 lineup:
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1908/041119080815.html || https://australianfootball.com/game/view/813

Jack Gardiner came into the side at the last minute, replacing Parke, who was set to play. However Jim Conquest is named in the official lineups (Parke isn't), and it seems he's the player who'll "lose" a game.
The Herald: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242930958/26369430
View attachment 1014170
Gardiner gets a few mentions in the match report.
The Herald didn't have him in the squad the day before the game, so they weren't expecting him. They didn't have Conquest either.
View attachment 1014172

The Age: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197350795
View attachment 1014174

The Argus: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10180988
View attachment 1014185

Same in The Australasian: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139205310/11426938
View attachment 1014198

No doubt about Gardiner playing, and Conquest (who hadn't been in the side since Rd. 11 and I haven't seen mentioned anywhere) does seem to be the odd man out.

Supermercado

rbartlett

Joe Harrison is named in the Richmond side for the 1924 Rd. 16 game vs. Melbourne but it seems he was a late withdrawal.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1924/111419240823.html || https://australianfootball.com/game/view/2075

Second Quarter Rush Made Tigers Safe - They Added 41 Points to Melbourne's 9 - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 23 Aug 1924

[?] who are fighting [?] ately for fourth position on the [?] played their [?] game with Melbourne on the [?] ground ...

trove.nla.gov.au

View attachment 1015716
View attachment 1015720
Gale and B. Smith are named in the official lineup, but Vic Thorp isn't, and he looks to be the player who has incorrectly been deprived of a game. He gets several mentions in the match report.

The Herald names Thorp and leaves out Harrison: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243882128
View attachment 1015725

The Age: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203668998
View attachment 1015727

Here's The Age for the next week's game:
View attachment 1015734

Same with Sporting Globe:
View attachment 1015735

The Argus has Harrison returning a week later as well:
View attachment 1015740

Looks very clear; Thorp played Rd. 16 and Harrison didn't. Thorp was meant to be in the side the week before and the week following this game, so seems a bit odd that he got "left out" here!

Here are the key parts from an email I received recently from the AFL's Col Hutchinson:

Jeff McGee, when appearing on ‘Coodabeen Champions’ sessions on ABC radio, has mentioned in passing that he has been deprived of a career goal in the various sources of player information. As he claims, eight goals looks better than seven in a brief career.
Stephen Rodgers has kindly conducted research as described below.
The match examined was played in Round Nine, 1967.
The evidence strongly supports Torch’s claim.
=====================================================================================
In relation to the South Melbourne 1967 goalkicking amendment, I managed to make it in to the Library this afternoon.

However, the fact that Torch clearly remembers kicking the 2 goals, and the decisive weight of all the reports collectively, should make it safe, you'd think, to amend the goalkickers for Round 9, 1967 to:

J. McGee 2
H. McAuliffe 1
=====================================================================================
Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*

Australian Football - Match Details: 1967 R9 Melbourne vs South Melbourne
AFL Tables - Melbourne v South Melbourne - Mon, 12-Jun-1967 2:20 PM - Match Stats

I've just had it confirmed from a contact at Collingwood that the DOB of former Magpie (and Richmond) player Des Negri has been altered from 15 November 1925 to 15 November 1923. The AFL will now have this in their records. Collingwood Forever has been updated accordingly:
View attachment 1019158
AFL Tables - Des Negri - Stats - Statistics
Australian Football - Des Negri - Player Bio
Des Negri - Wikipedia
If someone changes this on Wikipedia could they please amend this bit (Knott) as well!:
View attachment 1019164

*Paul*
Oliver Gigacz
rbartlett

This was investigated after a discrepancy was noticed between the DOB shown on his former school's website and that shown in the AFL records:
View attachment 1019176
That investigation found that the school had the right DOB (though they got his career goals wrong)!

Thanks Daicos! AF has been updated.

 

[35Daicos]

The AFL have accepted and confirmed an amended DOB for former Collingwood player John/Jack Hill. A DOD has also been found:

John Hill | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)




Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*
Jack Hill (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia

 

[rbartlett]

Just an update regarding Vic Thorp's tally.
He will REMAIN on 263 games, despite the change in previous posts.
The AFL already had Thorp not playing that game, where as AFL Tables/Australian Football hasn't been updated. That change obviously got missed over the years.
HOWEVER they identified that Thorp DID NOT PLAY Rd 5 1924 (earlier in the season). which AFLTables/AF currently have him as playing.
Part of the evidence here: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4348329

AFL have sent their spreadsheet for 1924 season to cross check what is not yet updated on AFL Tables/Australian Football etc.
At the very least, they will have to remove Thorp from 1924 and replace him, they believe with, Kevin Rush for Round 5.

As a result, they believe Kevin Rush DIDNT PLAY Round 4 1924, and have replaced him with JIM SPAIN for Round 4 1924.

I'll look over their spreadsheet page in coming week and see any discrepancies.

 

[35Daicos]

Here's a couple of Collingwood related changes the AFL have made in their official records:

The DOD for Alf Dummett is 1 May 1955:
Alf Dummett | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)

Wikipedia already has this correct (though his second name was Edwin, not Edward!).

Australian Football - Alf Dummett - Player Bio

The DOB for Dick Hall is 20 November 1872:
Dick Hall | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)

Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*
Dick Hall (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia

14 December 1906 was the DOD:



Dick Hall was the brother of Essendon player (and VFA star) Syd Hall: Australian Football - Syd Hall - Player Bio

 

[Oliver G]

Here's a couple of Collingwood related changes the AFL have made in their official records:

The DOD for Alf Dummett is 1 May 1955:
Alf Dummett | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)
View attachment 1029032
Wikipedia already has this correct (though his second name was Edwin, not Edward!).
View attachment 1029034
Australian Football - Alf Dummett - Player Bio

The DOB for Dick Hall is 20 November 1872:
Dick Hall | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)
View attachment 1029033
Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*
Dick Hall (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia
View attachment 1029040
14 December 1906 was the DOD:
View attachment 1029043
View attachment 1029045

Dick Hall was the brother of Essendon player (and VFA star) Syd Hall: Australian Football - Syd Hall - Player Bio

Thanks Daicos, AF updated.

 

[rbartlett]

Hello. I need your thoughts on this bit of research please.
I think we may have the wrong Fred Morgan details for Richmond on file.
Currently he is Frederick Harold Morgan born 11 October 1892 - 10 July 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Morgan_(footballer)

However, this article in Richmond paper says the "popular Richmond football" is Frederick Herbert Morgan, who son of J.C Morgan of Wall-Street Burnley,and that he marries Eva May Pearse.

Using those details, I reckon his date of birth is now:

And therefore his date of death is:


That would mean that he is NOT the Frederick Morgan listed in WW1 and WW2 pages of Cullens Those Who Served book.
And I cant find Frederick Herbert Morgan as having a Service Record.

As well here is a photograph of Fred, circa 1913 playing for Richmond Cricket side
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241534966



Anyone have Ancestry access to see if thre's a tree and possible photo to compare.

What's ya thoughts on the evidence?

 

[35Daicos]

Hello. I need your thoughts on this bit of research please.
I think we may have the wrong Fred Morgan details for Richmond on file.
Currently he is Frederick Harold Morgan born 11 October 1892 - 10 July 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Morgan_(footballer)

However, this article in Richmond paper says the "popular Richmond football" is Frederick Herbert Morgan, who son of J.C Morgan of Wall-Street Burnley,and that he marries Eva May Pearse.
View attachment 1030206
Using those details, I reckon his date of birth is now:
View attachment 1030190
And therefore his date of death is:
View attachment 1030191

That would mean that he is NOT the Frederick Morgan listed in WW1 and WW2 pages of Cullens Those Who Served book.
And I cant find Frederick Herbert Morgan as having a Service Record.

As well here is a photograph of Fred, circa 1913 playing for Richmond Cricket side
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241534966

View attachment 1030193

Anyone have Ancestry access to see if thre's a tree and possible photo to compare.

What's ya thoughts on the evidence?

I've looked on Ancestry and there are trees but no photo anywhere from what I can see. That article does make it look pretty clear that this is a case of mistaken identity!

From the link you provided about the Richmond cricketer:

They obviously mean the same football player. This is what they have in the Register of V.C.A. 1st XI Pennant, District & Premier Cricketers:

That matches the details the AFL currently have for the Richmond footballer! It now seems very likely the Richmond Guardian mixed up the two Frederick Morgan's in describing the chap who got married as the "popular Richmond footballer"!

 

[rbartlett]

Are you saying that the current DOB and DOD of Fred Morgan is correct still ?

 

[35Daicos]

Are you saying that the current DOB and DOD of Fred Morgan is correct still ?

It's looking quite like it. Unless the cricket and football records both have it wrong. At the moment I think it's more likely the paper made a mistake (thinking it was the footballer who got married), though it's still worth some more checking!
Richmond Team Photos | Boyles Football Photos (1913)


You can see from this the football player and the cricketer are one and the same.

 

[rbartlett]

Well the 1915 Annual Report makes no reference to any player marriage (which the above article states).
Though it list players who have enlisted , but Morgan's name is there either.

 

[rbartlett]

In April 1915 he appears to "officiate" a wedding for a friend, thereby missing a game.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254628886

I was hoping to find references of him being married in 1915, cause if so, then that means we have the wrong player.
Instead theres one of him officiating, which was odd.

Punch says he is a "spud merchant", though Punch always has had a peculiar way to describe things.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138698856

 

[35Daicos]

In April 1915 he appears to "officiate" a wedding for a friend, thereby missing a game.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254628886

I was hoping to find references of him being married in 1915, cause if so, then that means we have the wrong player.
Instead theres one of him officiating, which was odd.View attachment 1030231

Punch says he is a "spud merchant", though Punch always has had a peculiar way to describe things.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138698856

Lots of doubt about this still!:

The chap who enlists is a salesman in 1915. I imagine that's what a "spud merchant" is meant to be.

Yet the other man had a Govt./public service job:







The "spud merchant" comment is a bit of a worry, but the other work related comments/evidence suggests it's much more likely the Richmond footballer worked for the Government (than as a salesman), so Frederick Herbert Morgan seems the strong favourite now to have been the player. I think the paper had it right and the football (and cricket) records have it wrong. I'm not convinced the AFL chaps will go along with this one unless something a bit more certain pops up!

 

[35Daicos]

Fred Morgan's last ever game for Richmond was the 1915 Rd. 10 loss to Melbourne (26 June): AFL Tables - Fred Morgan - Stats - Statistics
From 1915 Rd. 11 Football Record:


I can't find anything that confirms why he stopped playing suddenly, but perhaps this hints at it? He was considered to be a very decent player from what I can see, so it was certainly odd that he just stopped all of a sudden!
Rd. 12 Football Record:




It seems he was still a chance to play a couple of weeks after that last game:


The Army chap enlisted 5/8/1915. There's no mention here of the Richmond footballer having enlisted (at about that time):



Frederick Herbert Morgan was born at Richmond and still living there in 1914:

The footballer was recruited from Beverley and the cricket player said to be "from local junior ranks":


That team was Cremorne Methodist.

The other chap was born at North Melbourne, and living with the family at North Fitzroy in 1914:


I think it's quite obvious now the records do have the wrong Fred Morgan playing for Richmond.

 

[rbartlett]

It likely that AFL selected the current DOB from the old micro film when researching back in the 1980s, and that Cricket used those dates as well.
I can't see anything that says the Richmond Footballer went to war either.

Btw, In 1921 I suspect this is the CURRENT Fred Morgan (ie: the incorrect one).
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242500934


I'll put forward all the evidence to Stephen R to see what he thinks.

 

[35Daicos]

It likely that AFL selected the current DOB from the old micro film when researching back in the 1980s, and that Cricket used those dates as well.
I can't see anything that says the Richmond Footballer went to war either.

Btw, In 1921 I suspect this is the CURRENT Fred Morgan (ie: the incorrect one).
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242500934
View attachment 1030331

Very likely, I did see that he was involved with a furniture company.

Frederick Herbert Morgan had a brother Joseph Oswald who seems to have been known as Oswald (probably because the father was also Joseph), and most likely that^ would have been the brothers playing cricket together.

Oswald was still living at Richmond in 1914:




I think there's more than enough to suggest Frederick Herbert should be your man!

 

[ThePope]

Been looking into Lockie Wood (22 games for Fitzroy 1926-28), as his full name doesn't seem to have been recorded. I've found an RAAF record, and a Ancestry family tree record for a Jack Locksley Wood, both with the YOB 1 year later, which may have been to get him into the RAAF (I think there was a max age for enlisting). Wikipedia has a death date of 3 March 1990.

Firstly, reports from his playing days refer to him as "Jack Wood" or "J Wood", not Lockie. ie Jack Wood Shines

When Jack Locksley Wood was born on 4 November 1905, his father, John, was 38 and his mother, Charlotte, was 32. He had one daughter with Eunice Barker. He then married Jean Stewart and they had four children together. He died in 1990 at the age of 85. Source (may need a library account login)

There is a Vic BDM item for 1904 for a Jack Wood with those parents, in Fitzroy North.

1904​

25627​

M

Wood

Jack

John

James Charlotte

Fitzroy North

Nothing in Ryerson for his death notice, but I did find a John Locksley Wood cemetery record at Sale Cemetary showing a burial date of 2 June 1990. Would there be a 3 month delay between death and burial? FindaGrave incorrectly (IMO) interprets this date as the death date.

JOHN LOCKSLEY

WOOD

02/06/1990

LAWN

A

BESIDE SHRUB 12

So I think I'll add Jack Locksley as his full given names, and leave the DOB & DOD as is, but would like more info/certainty on his death date. And also I think the Wikipedia article should be moved to Jack Wood, not Lockie Wood, as I can't find any reference to him as Lockie. Death notice for his 2nd wife in 1965 refers to him as John, so he seems to have moved from Jack to Lockie to John during his life.

 

[rbartlett]

Dyer, McCormack, McConchie, Geddes, games tallies all change.
Our researched confirmed by AFL, and approved by RFC History Committee

ive written an article here and made sure to mention our thread.

Tigerland history changes

The game tallies for four Tigers of old – Basil McCormack, Jock McConchie, Jack Dyer and Allan Geddes - have changed.

www.richmondfc.com.au

Ive emailled Paul at AFL Tables to amend, as obv the Dyer change impacts when he passed Titus club 294 games, hit the 300 game mark, surprassed Coventry's 306 games, and then had Reynolds pass him

 

[kick it to tim]

hi all, I posted this as a new thread, but I think it belongs here!

I have been doing some research into the career of Alex (Alec) Joker Hall, and I believe I have found evidence he was the Melbourne coach in 1911.

Supermercado if I am going over old ground, I apologise!

Now I have had a good look on Demonwiki (http://demonwiki.org/Alex+Hall) and it states at the bottom that “Some sources list him as having coached Melbourne in 1911, and show him with the name Alec. He is also shown in most contemporary sources as coach in 1914, but Football Records and newspapers from the time show that he was coach of Williamstown that year and that Len Incigneri coached the side.”
So what we do know is that Joker coached the demons in 1908 and 1909, he was at Richmond in 1910, but then left Richmond (not sure why, Rhett do you have access to the minutes or any reasons why he may have left Richmond at the end of 1910?) He then coached Melbouren again from 1912-1913. Melbourne’s honour board has 1911 blank, (their official history on their websites states Alex Hall returned in 1912 https://www.melbournefc.com.au/history/year-by-year)

The articles I have come across talk about the MCC looking for a coach, then I have Articles from April – July that refer to him as coach. The Punch from April 27 1911, states that “All last year’s team and an old coach (Alex Hall) are available at Melbourne. “

1911 Alex (Alec Joker Hall references)
March 11 MCC put out application for coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10885434
March 18 – RFC decide to appoint no coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/255870457
April 21 – Engaged as coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242213398
April 27 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175612181
April 27 – More reference here - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175612181
May 12 – Richmond Appoints coach
Coach in June 9 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242228163
Coach in July 21 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242841035


offer to coach Carlton in finals 1911 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242842192

1912 – The Herald reports that it’s the same old coach for Melbourne https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241503816

Also a side note, I notice that Boyles also records him as having coached from 1911-193 at Melbourne https://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Alec+Hall

If he was coach, then how do we go about getting this officially recognized and adding his name onto the 1911 space on the honour board?

 

[Gibbsy]

Supermercado, rbartlett – tagging you in

 

[kick it to tim]

Another article here form 1914, talks about Joker Hall taking over at Williamstown, having been in charge of Melbourne for 6 seasons...(1907,08,09 and 1911, 12, 13)

Add it to the evidence!

FOOTBALL. - Williamstown Advertiser (Vic. : 1875 - 1954) - 21 Mar 1914

Training in full swing. "Joker" Hall appointed coach. To-day a scratch match will be played between the Reds and Blues. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[Supermercado]

hi all, I posted this as a new thread, but I think it belongs here!

I have been doing some research into the career of Alex (Alec) Joker Hall, and I believe I have found evidence he was the Melbourne coach in 1911.

Supermercado if I am going over old ground, I apologise!

Now I have had a good look on Demonwiki (http://demonwiki.org/Alex+Hall) and it states at the bottom that “Some sources list him as having coached Melbourne in 1911, and show him with the name Alec. He is also shown in most contemporary sources as coach in 1914, but Football Records and newspapers from the time show that he was coach of Williamstown that year and that Len Incigneri coached the side.”
So what we do know is that Joker coached the demons in 1908 and 1909, he was at Richmond in 1910, but then left Richmond (not sure why, Rhett do you have access to the minutes or any reasons why he may have left Richmond at the end of 1910?) He then coached Melbouren again from 1912-1913. Melbourne’s honour board has 1911 blank, (their official history on their websites states Alex Hall returned in 1912 https://www.melbournefc.com.au/history/year-by-year)

The articles I have come across talk about the MCC looking for a coach, then I have Articles from April – July that refer to him as coach. The Punch from April 27 1911, states that “All last year’s team and an old coach (Alex Hall) are available at Melbourne. “

1911 Alex (Alec Joker Hall references)
March 11 MCC put out application for coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10885434
March 18 – RFC decide to appoint no coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/255870457
April 21 – Engaged as coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242213398
April 27 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175612181
April 27 – More reference here - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175612181
May 12 – Richmond Appoints coach
Coach in June 9 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242228163
Coach in July 21 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242841035


offer to coach Carlton in finals 1911 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242842192

1912 – The Herald reports that it’s the same old coach for Melbourne https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241503816

Also a side note, I notice that Boyles also records him as having coached from 1911-193 at Melbourne https://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Alec+Hall

If he was coach, then how do we go about getting this officially recognized and adding his name onto the 1911 space on the honour board?

Solid enough evidence for me to update Demonwiki. I will get this done in the next few days.

As for the club, you could contact them via the form on the website but they generally have no interest in historical matters. Not to sound up myself but they tend to take stuff off Demonwiki (which I have no problem with) so maybe wait for me to update it then contact them. Will confirm when done.