News Matt Clarke heads West. Replaced by Chris Toce

[db26]

Clarke is awful. Very glad he's gone. Couldn't recruit a genuine midfielder if his life depended on it. Obsessed with flankers who aren't even rated in their draft year. Every year there was 2-3 WTF selections that never worked out.

They couldn't even dig up highlights for bunch of the players he picked on these draft shows because they were such wild out there selections.

What's even more crazy is people on this board praise him. His track record is shocking

He gets alot of credit for Francis Jackson work building our flag side he was far from it Clarke.

 

[richoplzbreed]

And yet was seen as a first round pick in almost - if not - all mock drafts, including Cal Twomey who had him going seven places higher than what we took him.

Per Twomey: The midfielder is something of an 'upside' pick – he's shown some really exciting glimpses, including in the finals series for the Oakleigh Chargers, but hasn't been a huge ball-winner at TAC Cup level. He's a tall midfielder who is best at digging out the ball and feeding it off.

So was always seen as a high reward pick based on upside and not the stats. Was seen to go higher than what he was taken. The no-risk, high reward midfielders aren’t ever going to be available at pick 20 in a draft. They don’t always work out, doesn’t mean they aren’t worth a swing. If you’re going to make selections purely based on stats Jack Graham would have been a top 10 pick.

Don’t think anyone would say Clarke’s tenure is flawless by any stretch, but to suggest that he solely responsible for how a players career turns out after he’s selected is pure crap.

Wtf do I suggest he's solely responsible for how a players career turns out? My issue is he burnt every 1st rounder with a common theme being they were all girls blouses. CCJ over Oscar Allen. RCD, Dow, passing our 1st rounder to Geelong who they've used on Holmes who's now likended to Judd. (Why couldn't Clarke see potential in Holmes cos he's sure good at bragging he identifies special qualities in CCJ and Dow that no one else could. So do schizophrenics) That pick being used on dime a dozen HBF in Tom Brown. Brown like the rest of 2021 draft have the next 2 years to see if any good. Signs aren't great so far.

 

[RockJobster0312]

Wtf do I suggest he's solely responsible for how a players career turns out? My issue is he burnt every 1st rounder with a common theme being they were all girls blouses. CCJ over Oscar Allen. RCD, Dow, passing our 1st rounder to Geelong who they've used on Holmes who's now likended to Judd. (Why couldn't Clarke see potential in Holmes cos he's sure good at bragging he identifies special qualities in CCJ and Dow that no one else could. So do schizophrenics) That pick being used on dime a dozen HBF in Tom Brown. Brown like the rest of 2021 draft have the next 2 years to see if any good. Signs aren't great so far.

Your first post quoted my first post that was about Matt Clarke being blamed for not developing players after being drafted. So I’ll be fair, you don’t suggest as such and I took it as implied on the basis.

But burnt EVERY first rounder? The total of five he’s had? Gibcus and Brown too early to tell, Higgins now at St Kilda and is best 22, and RCD and Dow despite first rounders were selected with picks that are generally second round picks (20 and 21 respectively).

And the ‘Judd-like comparison’ for Max Holmes was made by Dangerfield; his own teammate. If that’s the basis for labeling someone we’d of had the next Rance, Hawks the next Cyril Rioli, the Crows the next Andrew McLeod. Laughable that we’re taking it more for the off-handed comment as it was actually given in the first instance.

Let’s go with RCD and Dow, who else should have been taken? Xavier O’Halloran? Bobby Hill (with Castagna, Rioli, Jack Higgins and Shai Bolton already on the list)? Rowbottom? There will always be players that turn out better, but it’s not as if there was an absolute obvious choice clear and away ahead of RCD.

And Dow? The only one around Dow that could possibly be a miss is Devon Robertson; a similar player to Jack Graham and Jack Ross.

Would love to see your mock drafts or big boards for those two drafts.

Also, let’s be clear, CCJ was a second round pick; Oscar Allen was a WA kid not without homesickness concerns and Balta was taken a few picks later.

Even going back to your first part of your comment ‘Wtf do I suggest he's solely responsible for how a players career turns out?’ the subsequent parts of your post have absolutely zero regard for any others that are involved in player development. Mentioning the supposed failures of one individual and praising those of others as if their career trajectory has already been mapped out. Does not the coaching staff have a role to play in RCD’s development? Of Garthwaite’s? Of Bolton’s? Of Seth Campbell’s?

Clarke may not be the best out there, but he’s far from the failure that others have made him out to be. If he was, West Coast wouldn’t have poached him.

 

[Tiger_4_Life]

Your first post quoted my first post that was about Matt Clarke being blamed for not developing players after being drafted. So I’ll be fair, you don’t suggest as such and I took it as implied on the basis.

But burnt EVERY first rounder? The total of five he’s had? Gibcus and Brown too early to tell, Higgins now at St Kilda and is best 22, and RCD and Dow despite first rounders were selected with picks that are generally second round picks (20 and 21 respectively).

And the ‘Judd-like comparison’ for Max Holmes was made by Dangerfield; his own teammate. If that’s the basis for labeling someone we’d of had the next Rance, Hawks the next Cyril Rioli, the Crows the next Andrew McLeod. Laughable that we’re taking it more for the off-handed comment as it was actually given in the first instance.

Let’s go with RCD and Dow, who else should have been taken? Xavier O’Halloran? Bobby Hill (with Castagna, Rioli, Jack Higgins and Shai Bolton already on the list)? Rowbottom? There will always be players that turn out better, but it’s not as if there was an absolute obvious choice clear and away ahead of RCD.

And Dow? The only one around Dow that could possibly be a miss is Devon Robertson; a similar player to Jack Graham and Jack Ross.

Would love to see your mock drafts or big boards for those two drafts.

Also, let’s be clear, CCJ was a second round pick; Oscar Allen was a WA kid not without homesickness concerns and Balta was taken a few picks later.

Even going back to your first part of your comment ‘Wtf do I suggest he's solely responsible for how a players career turns out?’ the subsequent parts of your post have absolutely zero regard for any others that are involved in player development. Mentioning the supposed failures of one individual and praising those of others as if their career trajectory has already been mapped out. Does not the coaching staff have a role to play in RCD’s development? Of Garthwaite’s? Of Bolton’s? Of Seth Campbell’s?

Clarke may not be the best out there, but he’s far from the failure that others have made him out to be. If he was, West Coast wouldn’t have poached him.

Every s**t list needs a scapegoat

Now let's get a real list manager in, THE list manager

 

[tiger_tough]

Article today about Toce, his role in drafting alot of St Kildas exciting youth and how he was shafted by the club. Says he is the front runner.

Saints’ win highlights bizarre call, Mitchell’s misstep: Key takeouts from round two

The AFL’s second round is in the books and, as usual, there is plenty to talk about after a weekend of upsets, controversy and magnificent solo performances.

www.theage.com.au

Might need to paste the article here if paywalled - https://12ft.io/

 

[Groupie_]

Article today about Toce, his role in drafting alot of St Kildas exciting youth and how he was shafted by the club. Says he is the front runner.

Saints’ win highlights bizarre call, Mitchell’s misstep: Key takeouts from round two

The AFL’s second round is in the books and, as usual, there is plenty to talk about after a weekend of upsets, controversy and magnificent solo performances.

www.theage.com.au

Might need to paste the article here if paywalled - https://12ft.io/

wtf

their list is hot trash

we are doomed if we get him

 

[Muddiemoose]

wtf

their list is hot trash

we are doomed if we get him

He only had the job for a few seasons and he had some great picks

Got knifed for a Ross Lyon yes man

 

[tiger_tough]

wtf

their list is hot trash

we are doomed if we get him

Their drafting the last few years has been as good as anyones.

 

[Groupie_]

Their drafting the last few years has been as good as anyones.

bullshite it has

they have done nothing for 100 years

 

[Groupie_]

He only had the job for a few seasons and he had some great picks

Got knifed for a Ross Lyon yes man

hes from farrken st kilda

 

[Muddiemoose]

hes from farrken st kilda

Sydney chased chased him hard as well, they are pretty much regarded as one of the best recruiting teams in the comp if they can see his value it says a lot

 

[Groupie_]

Sydney chased chased him hard as well, they are pretty much regarded as one of the best recruiting teams in the comp if they can see his value it says a lot

yeah they have a great cheat academy

 

[tiger_tough]

bullshite it has

they have done nothing for 100 years

Fortunately, he'd only been there for like 3.

 

[Bojangles17]

Apparently Chris Toce was presenting today former saints recruiter had a big say in there young talent now.

Saints part ways with recruiting manager after restructure

Chris Toce will leave the Saints, who have restructured their list and recruiting team

www.afl.com.au

Hm reckon his reputation is growing by the week , don’t mind the saints list build ,,,,,at all

 

[Bojangles17]

He gets alot of credit for Francis Jackson work building our flag side he was far from it Clarke.

What credit did Francis Jackson get , I was pilloried for standing up for his work going back 10years

 

[richoplzbreed]

Your first post quoted my first post that was about Matt Clarke being blamed for not developing players after being drafted. So I’ll be fair, you don’t suggest as such and I took it as implied on the basis.

But burnt EVERY first rounder? The total of five he’s had? Gibcus and Brown too early to tell, Higgins now at St Kilda and is best 22, and RCD and Dow despite first rounders were selected with picks that are generally second round picks (20 and 21 respectively).

And the ‘Judd-like comparison’ for Max Holmes was made by Dangerfield; his own teammate. If that’s the basis for labeling someone we’d of had the next Rance, Hawks the next Cyril Rioli, the Crows the next Andrew McLeod. Laughable that we’re taking it more for the off-handed comment as it was actually given in the first instance.

Let’s go with RCD and Dow, who else should have been taken? Xavier O’Halloran? Bobby Hill (with Castagna, Rioli, Jack Higgins and Shai Bolton already on the list)? Rowbottom? There will always be players that turn out better, but it’s not as if there was an absolute obvious choice clear and away ahead of RCD.

And Dow? The only one around Dow that could possibly be a miss is Devon Robertson; a similar player to Jack Graham and Jack Ross.

Would love to see your mock drafts or big boards for those two drafts.

Also, let’s be clear, CCJ was a second round pick; Oscar Allen was a WA kid not without homesickness concerns and Balta was taken a few picks later.

Even going back to your first part of your comment ‘Wtf do I suggest he's solely responsible for how a players career turns out?’ the subsequent parts of your post have absolutely zero regard for any others that are involved in player development. Mentioning the supposed failures of one individual and praising those of others as if their career trajectory has already been mapped out. Does not the coaching staff have a role to play in RCD’s development? Of Garthwaite’s? Of Bolton’s? Of Seth Campbell’s?

Clarke may not be the best out there, but he’s far from the failure that others have made him out to be. If he was, West Coast wouldn’t have poached him.

CCJ was pick 20. Semantics. To me I lump it in with the other 1st round busts. Oscar Allen Larke Medallist ripe for the plucking. Nope he identified CCJ as being superior also cited his excellent leadership qualities... CCJ couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery. He'll only be remembered as being a disastrous pick-up by North, whilst Allen is in fact already Captain of WCE and will probably kick 500+ goals. I've got no doubt North would gladly delist him if it wasn't for his obscene contract.

 

[AstuteTiger]

The Age reported on the curious story of ex-Saints recruiting boss Chris Toce, who helped spearhead the club’s excellent recent drafts which have added much-needed young talent to an otherwise stale list.

Toce was the head of recruiting for the 2021 selections of Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera, Mitch Owens and Marcus Windhager, plus promising recent pick-ups Mattaes Phillipou, Darcy Wilson and Lance Collard.

He was also the scout for South Australia and West Australia when the Saints plucked Callum Wilkie

44

Callum Wilkie

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.2

4star

K

9.8

4star

HB

4.4

3star

M

4.5

4star

T

1.8

4star

MG

221.3

3star

D

12.6

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

3.6

2star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.4

2star

MG

223.1

3star

D

14.0

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

5.6

4star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.2

4star

MG

170.0

3star

out of the SANFL.

But despite this success Toce was sacked in December, replaced by former Sydney recruiter Simon Dalprymple - who has had a friendly relationship with Stephen Silvagni for many years.

The move came after former list manager James Gallagher

James Gallagher

Age

44

Ht

176cm

Wt

70kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.3

3star

K

8.2

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.5

3star

No current season stats available

D

16.2

4star

K

12.2

5star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

was dumped when Lyon returned as coach, with Silvagni taking his job.

It speaks to the power Lyon and friends have over the club in its current incarnation.

Hawks champion Roughead, who worked under Toce at Moorabbin, “quit his list management role at St Kilda at least in part over Toce’s treatment before accepting a similar role with his former club Hawthorn”, according to the report.

Another group of part-time recruiters were dumped over email in the same period, including a former Carlton national recruiting manager.

Silvagni left the Blues in late 2019 following a fallout with club higher-ups.

Toce is now reportedly the frontrunner to be named Richmond’s next national recruiting manager, replacing new West Coast list manager Matt Clarke.

 

[JR82]

Wtf do I suggest he's solely responsible for how a players career turns out? My issue is he burnt every 1st rounder with a common theme being they were all girls blouses. CCJ over Oscar Allen. RCD, Dow, passing our 1st rounder to Geelong who they've used on Holmes who's now likended to Judd. (Why couldn't Clarke see potential in Holmes cos he's sure good at bragging he identifies special qualities in CCJ and Dow that no one else could. So do schizophrenics) That pick being used on dime a dozen HBF in Tom Brown. Brown like the rest of 2021 draft have the next 2 years to see if any good. Signs aren't great so far.

Brown has done nothing wrong thus far, game high 8 Intercept possies yesterday.

 

[Daka]

It looks like it's going to be Toce, right now he has better recent record over Clarke hands down.

 

[JR82]

"Toce has been at the Saints for nine years and been the club's national head of recruiting for the past two years, leading the division for its selection of gun youngster Mattaes Phillipou last year".

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Your first post quoted my first post that was about Matt Clarke being blamed for not developing players after being drafted. So I’ll be fair, you don’t suggest as such and I took it as implied on the basis.

But burnt EVERY first rounder? The total of five he’s had? Gibcus and Brown too early to tell, Higgins now at St Kilda and is best 22, and RCD and Dow despite first rounders were selected with picks that are generally second round picks (20 and 21 respectively).

And the ‘Judd-like comparison’ for Max Holmes was made by Dangerfield; his own teammate. If that’s the basis for labeling someone we’d of had the next Rance, Hawks the next Cyril Rioli, the Crows the next Andrew McLeod. Laughable that we’re taking it more for the off-handed comment as it was actually given in the first instance.

Let’s go with RCD and Dow, who else should have been taken? Xavier O’Halloran? Bobby Hill (with Castagna, Rioli, Jack Higgins and Shai Bolton already on the list)? Rowbottom? There will always be players that turn out better, but it’s not as if there was an absolute obvious choice clear and away ahead of RCD.

And Dow? The only one around Dow that could possibly be a miss is Devon Robertson; a similar player to Jack Graham and Jack Ross.

Would love to see your mock drafts or big boards for those two drafts.

Also, let’s be clear, CCJ was a second round pick; Oscar Allen was a WA kid not without homesickness concerns and Balta was taken a few picks later.

Even going back to your first part of your comment ‘Wtf do I suggest he's solely responsible for how a players career turns out?’ the subsequent parts of your post have absolutely zero regard for any others that are involved in player development. Mentioning the supposed failures of one individual and praising those of others as if their career trajectory has already been mapped out. Does not the coaching staff have a role to play in RCD’s development? Of Garthwaite’s? Of Bolton’s? Of Seth Campbell’s?

Clarke may not be the best out there, but he’s far from the failure that others have made him out to be. If he was, West Coast wouldn’t have poached him.

that's all true maybe, I just can't get over the RCD pick.one game watching him, I knew. Mindset thing.

anyway, seems like it's Toce, let's look to the future with hope of less Lennons, RCDs, C. Ellis' in the 1st round!

 

[captain cotch 9]

I wonder how far off we are from making an annoucement

 

[Bojangles17]

"Toce has been at the Saints for nine years and been the club's national head of recruiting for the past two years, leading the division for its selection of gun youngster Mattaes Phillipou last year".

Top tenners really pic themselves , it’s the balance that you stake a reputation on , that said the hawks have made a habit of ******* them up recently

 

[Drunken Wookie]

need someone who can nail high draft picks. end of story. thats the path we're currently on, no more spending all our time trying to find that unknown diamond in the rough, we need the next cotch, dusty, rance.

 

[fargothegreat]

I wonder how far off we are from making an annoucement

They don't really have that long to make a call, as we've definitely got at least one pick in the MSD.