Matthew Kreuzer - Does the Hype

[AG]

Panther stuffed up the heading anyway. It should read: 'Matthew Kreuzer - Is he elite?'

 

[Soul_Pie]

Rate Kreuzer highly, he's done particularly well for such a young bloke, especially given how long it generally takes ruckmen to develop. Pretty much has all the necessary tools to become one of the best in the comp.

Don't want to go overboard with my praise, though. He does play for Carlton after all.

 

[The Panther]

Luckily we've got Hampson and Jacobs on our list as well, who have both shown they can cut it at AFL level.

Hampson and Jacobs are nothing more than fringe players. Hampson hasn't really shown that he can it as it is.

 

[HBF]

Hampson and Jacobs are nothing more than fringe players. Hampson hasn't really shown that he can it as it is.

They are still ruckmen that have played some pretty good games at AFL level.

 

[crackersrulz]

Best and fairest award means little. Im not sure why anyone thinks it does. Generally just a award that desribes how important player X is for the side and im pretty sure Kruezer when fit and firing is higher than 5th. I just dont think a player of his age should be doing as much as he is doing. Id of liked to think teams have learnt from Eagles mistakes with Gardiner. Big men that early on in there career cant handle a workload like that forever, they eventually break down. Its just common sense. Unless Kruezer has knees of steel

Hes performed okay but he would benefit ALOT more in his career by being anywhere else.

Let's see how much game time Nic Nat plays this year......

 

[Blue Dawn]

We are very, very happy with what Kruze has shown in his first two years with the Blues.

 

[tek87]

will back him to be a champion player. Has that element of desperation and hard running that will take him places

 

[Silvagnis]

Hampson and Jacobs are nothing more than fringe players. Hampson hasn't really shown that he can it as it is.

Because rucks just star overnight and don't take longer to develop...

I reckon Hampson has shown more than Jolly when he was at Melbourne and stuck behind White.

No he isn't. Kreuzer is, Hampson isn't.

Not this.

I'd respectfully disagree with Kramer1 and say that Hampson has Mumford covered around the ground.

Or is just as good.

Hampson gets more hit outs.

Is improving his around the ground work after seeing some of his efforts this year.

I guess that's why Jolly mentioned the Queenslander after playing against Hampson last year.

Didn't mention Mumford.

Hampson has a higher ceiling than Mumford.

Would take more to shift than Mumford who was traded for a second round pick IIRC.

The fact that you've said he was going to show Jesse White (a part time ruck at best) up leads me to believe that you don't have all the faith in the world in him..

Huh?

 

[The Panther]

Because rucks just star overnight and don't take longer to develop...

Fraser was more advanced than Kruezer at the same stage, which is a tad worrying in itself. Gardiner, King & co were guns by the time they hit 20.

 

[Naughton]

I really don't see the comparisons between Fraser and Kruezer.

Fraser was never going to develop into a top ruckman because he just never had the build for it. Tall enough, but never going to be strong enough. Having to play first ruck with massive gametime in the ruck killed him as well.

Kruezer is a different kettle of fish entirely. His frame will allow him to physically develop into an entirely different beast (pun intended) to Fraser. They only get compared so much because they're both mobile, and both taken at 1.

Gardiner & King "guns" at 20? Depends on your definition of "gun". To me, Dean Cox at his peak was a gun. 20yo Gardiner and King were advanced for their age, and very promising. Not guns.

 

[mediumsizered]

Fraser was more advanced than Kruezer at the same stage, which is a tad worrying in itself. Gardiner, King & co were guns by the time they hit 20.

You are right about Gardner, but the stats indicate otherwise with King:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=4&pid1=2301&tid2=16&pid2=240&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=P&fopt2=1999

Kreuzer's season as a 20 year old was better than King's season as a 20 year old & sadly for you, Kreuzer's season as a 20 year old ruckman comfortably exceeds Fraser's season as a 20 year old:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=4&pid1=2301&tid2=5&pid2=167&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=P&fopt2=2002.

Best not to use Fraser in your comparisons in future.

 

[JDogg]

I was at the game yesterday and three of my Carlton mates were discussing the similarities between Kruzer and Fraser. Very awkward player, appears a tad soft, ducks his head at times.

I dont think he'll be able to match it with the Ryders, Clarks, Natanui's of the game, not enough strings to his bow.

And he's not agile enough to be a key position forward.

 

[HBF]

I was at the game yesterday and three of my Carlton mates were discussing the similarities between Kruzer and Fraser. Very awkward player, appears a tad soft, ducks his head at times.

I dont think he'll be able to match it with the Ryders, Clarks, Natanui's of the game, not enough strings to his bow.

And he's not agile enough to be a key position forward.

You need to watch more Carlton games JDogg.
Kreuzers biggest asset is his work on the ground, his second and third efforts, and he almost plays as another mid, the way he runs around on the ground.

I agree that he can look a little timid at times at the centre square ruck contests, however, this can be a little expcted when he comes up against guys like Charman, Hille and Sandilands. All monsters, and all much bigger bulk wise than Kreuzer.

 

[mediumsizered]

I was at the game yesterday and three of my Carlton mates were discussing the similarities between Kruzer and Fraser. Very awkward player, appears a tad soft, ducks his head at times.

I dont think he'll be able to match it with the Ryders, Clarks, Natanui's of the game, not enough strings to his bow.
And he's not agile enough to be a key position forward.

It is not the "Ryders, Clarks & Natanuis" that are an issue, it is, as HBF rightly points out, the bigger, stronger ruckmen who Kreuzer struggles against (not surprising given his youth), similar to Ryder, who struggled against the bigger bodied ruckmen as last season wore on.

Don't worry about Kreuzer's agility, he is as nimble as many midfielders & has a surprising turn of speed, particularly when on the chase.

I'm confident that Kreuzer will comfortably match it with the "Ryders & Clarks" over the duration of his career & while Natanui will probably be a better ruckman than Kreuzer, I think Kreuzer will more than match him with his work around the ground & the ability to kick goals when drifting forward in play.

 

[Blues_Man]

I was at the game yesterday and three of my Carlton mates were discussing the similarities between Kruzer and Fraser. Very awkward player, appears a tad soft, ducks his head at times.

I dont think he'll be able to match it with the Ryders, Clarks, Natanui's of the game, not enough strings to his bow.

And he's not agile enough to be a key position forward.

Thank you for highlighting your total ignorance regarding ruckmen ..Kruezer has already been taking on the games premier ruckmen and more than held his own...i don't think you have 3 mates ..let alone Carlton ones.

Kruezer was better in his first year than Fraser has been his whole career ..Pies still smarting over that selection .

 

[The Panther]

Kreuzer's season as a 20 year old was better than King's season as a 20 year old & sadly for you, Kreuzer's season as a 20 year old ruckman comfortably exceeds Fraser's season as a 20 year old:
.

Josh was superior as an 18 & 19 year old statistically. 1 year doesn't make Kruezer superor.

As a 20 year old, Josh kicked 37 goals, including 3 in a PF & 3 in a GF. Quite a distance ahead of Kreuzer.

 

[mediumsizered]

Josh was superior as an 18 & 19 year old statistically. 1 year doesn't make Kruezer superor.

As a 20 year old, Josh kicked 37 goals, including 3 in a PF & 3 in a GF. Quite a distance ahead of Kreuzer.

Did you happen to notice from the Kreuzer/Fraser comparison I showed you that Kreuzer averaged 17 hitouts per game, while Fraser, because he wasn't playing strictly as a ruckman, averaged 5 hitouts per game, so in other words he wasn't developed enough to play regularly as a ruckman at the same stage of his career, sort of making your comparison moot. If you want to talk about Fraser the forward, perhaps you should be comparing him with someone like Buddy Franklin or Jarryd Roughead.

Just to reiterate the point you don't know what your talking about, here is a comparison between Kreuzer & Fraser from their respective first AFL season:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=4&pid1=2301&tid2=5&pid2=167&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2008&fid2=P&fopt2=2000

You will note that although Fraser was marginally ahead on average disposals per game, Kreuzer was marginally ahead of Fraser on average hitouts. Given both players were selected by their club as ruckmen, it would seem Josh was not "superior....statistically" to Kreuzer.

Anything else I can help you with?

 

[The Panther]

Did you happen to notice from the Kreuzer/Fraser comparison I showed you that Kreuzer averaged 17 hitouts per game, while Fraser, because he wasn't playing strictly as a ruckman, averaged 5 hitouts per game

Josh held down the ruck position by his lonesome in 2000.

He averaged 8 hitouts in 00, in Kruezer's first year, he averaged the same. Josh took more marks & had more disposals.

In 01, Josh got some assistance from McKee. He floated forward & kicked more goals than Kreuzer. He took more marks & averaged more disposals.

If Kreuzer is to surpass Josh at the same point of their careers, he will have to kick more goals than 37, including kicking 3 in a PF & GF. Josh was by far a more damaging player than Kruezer at the same age (in 1 game he kicked 6 goals in a game, far and away superior to anything Kruezer has produced).

It wasn't until 21 (the age Kruezer that will turn 21) that Josh had a notable influence in the ruck. His last 13 games in 03 were the driving force for us making a GF run, again I doubt Kruezer can do the same this year.

 

[mediumsizered]

Did you happen to notice from the Kreuzer/Fraser comparison I showed you that Kreuzer averaged 17 hitouts per game, while Fraser, because he wasn't playing strictly as a ruckman, averaged 5 hitouts per game

In 01, Josh got some assistance from McKee. He floated forward & kicked more goals than Kreuzer. He took more marks & averaged more disposals.

If Kreuzer is to surpass Josh at the same point of their careers, he will have to kick more goals than 37, including kicking 3 in a PF & GF. Josh was by far a more damaging player than Kruezer at the same age (in 1 game he kicked 6 goals in a game, far and away superior to anything Kruezer has produced).

6.4 hitouts per game in 2001, does not constitute drifting forward, it constitutes playing mostly forward. If Fraser spent significant time in the ruck & was only averaging 6.4 hitouts per game, he was struggling. In fact, 134 hitouts for the whole season tells you that Fraser spent minimal time in the ruck. In comparison, Kreuzer had 394 hitouts last season.

FWIW, Kreuzer had some assistance from Hampson last season (18.5 hitouts per game, in 15 games), yet still averaged 17.1 hitouts per game (interesting to note that Kreuzer averaged more hitouts per game than Fraser last season, despite Kreuzer sharing the ruck duties roughly 50/50 with Hampson, as the stats confirm).

There is no doubt you are trying to compare Fraser, the forward circa 2001, with Kreuzer, the ruckman.

 

[HBF]

Josh was superior as an 18 & 19 year old statistically. 1 year doesn't make Kruezer superor.

As a 20 year old, Josh kicked 37 goals, including 3 in a PF & 3 in a GF. Quite a distance ahead of Kreuzer.

Who gives a crap that Fraser was statistically better than Kreuzer as an 18 & 19 year old footballer. Anyone can pull a stat out of their backside that can make a point comparing one footballer to another.

If you want to look at how good Kreuzer is, go back to the game against Port in his first season. Turned the game for Carlton in the final term, in the wet, where big blokes often struggle.

 

[Chism]

Cant believe this thread is still being argued about. It is Panther at his best and nothing more than a Troll and really i couldn't give a toss what the BF community thinks of Kruez. He is ours and will be a gun 200+ game player that will be one of the elite ruckman in the next few years.

Criticism in this thread is stemming from jelousy and there is NOT 1 team in the Comp that Kruez would not walk straight in to ATM.

Carry on though with the criticisms as they are quite amusing.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Did you happen to notice from the Kreuzer/Fraser comparison I showed you that Kreuzer averaged 17 hitouts per game, while Fraser, because he wasn't playing strictly as a ruckman, averaged 5 hitouts per game

Josh held down the ruck position by his lonesome in 2000.

He averaged 8 hitouts in 00, in Kruezer's first year, he averaged the same. Josh took more marks & had more disposals.

In 01, Josh got some assistance from McKee. He floated forward & kicked more goals than Kreuzer. He took more marks & averaged more disposals.

If Kreuzer is to surpass Josh at the same point of their careers, he will have to kick more goals than 37, including kicking 3 in a PF & GF. Josh was by far a more damaging player than Kruezer at the same age (in 1 game he kicked 6 goals in a game, far and away superior to anything Kruezer has produced).

.

I wouldn't go quoting the 3 goals from the 2003 Grand Final as a stat to boast about - Fraser was embarrassing in that game and basically didn't even compete against Clark Keating who put in one of the most dominant ruck performances I've seen.

 

[The Panther]

I wouldn't go quoting the 3 goals from the 2003 Grand Final as a stat to boast about - Fraser was embarrassing in that game and basically didn't even compete against Clark Keating who put in one of the most dominant ruck performances I've seen.

Wrong year buddy, I was talking about 02.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Wrong year buddy, I was talking about 02.

That's right - it was 3 kicks in the 2003 Grand Final - got my 3's mixed up

 

[Silvagnis]

Match his output?

Couldn't take a trick against a backup ruckman last nite. Carlton by their large investment in Warnock, obviously still have reservations about his ability to hold their ruck division together.

For me he reminds me a lot of Josh Fraser, a player who was overhyped in the early years of his career but could never impart a physical prescence on a game.

I think Carlton would laugh at Collingwood if they offered us Pendlebury and N.Brown/Cloke for Kreuzer.

Kreuzer beat Clark in the ruck contest, roved the ball in a pack, sprinted away and hit the target on the run. And then kept running hard to the goal square to rove another ball and earn a free.

Freak.

Kreuzer will be a top ten, if not top five player in the game.

If not the best or second best player in the game.