Hot Topic Michael Voss - Coaching in 2026. Should he remain beyond that?

[JustaBattler]

I hate the Gov and Williams contracts especially. But playing devils advocate here. There's a salary cap to fill and X amount of list spots to fill. Even when holding those disgusting contracts, who have we lost that we didn't want to?

It isn't about who have we lost - it is about organisational cutlure- the more even the salary spread the more you have available to get in better players and the less likely you are to have factions develop - everyone ends up knowing who is paid what ...

you lower the top end and gain in the middle end - and it is the middle end that is the difference between finals or not - ie amount of good depth.,

 

[The Flying Doormat]

You keep repeating yourself and failing to to do even the most basic levels of analysis - despite continual reminders.

just sheeptalk from sheeple.

Let's reduce this to basics so all farm animals can understand. A coach that keeps losing and sees his team trekking backwards will eventually get the chop.

 

[JustaBattler]

Let's reduce this to basics so all farm animals can understand. A coach that keeps losing and sees his team trekking backwards will eventually get the chop.

Everyone runs out of reasons/excuses at some stage. My view is that excuses/reasons > proof of anything except W/L (atm)

and in saying that (FWIW) I dont agree with everything he and his assistants have done as far as player selection /position or focus points on game style.

however Ive been around long enough to know that everyone in any organisation has to have some room to make errors - otherwise there is no learning, growth or progress there is just stagnation.

 

[Gointocarlton]

Everyone runs out of reasons/excuses at some stage. My view is that excuses/reasons > proof of anything except W/L (atm)

and in saying that (FWIW) I dont agree with everything he and his assistants have done as far as player selection /position or focus points on game style.

however Ive been around long enough to know that everyone in any organisation has to have some room to make errors - otherwise there is no learning, growth or progress there is just stagnation.

There a proverb in Italian, "sbagliando s'impara" which translates to you learn from your mistakes.

 

[JustaBattler]

There a proverb in Italian, "sbagliando s'impara" which translates to you learn from your mistakes.

I like it.

Experience is another word for mistakes -

*paraphrasing Oscar Wilde

 

[jd2010]

It isn't about who have we lost - it is about organisational cutlure- the more even the salary spread the more you have available to get in better players and the less likely you are to have factions develop - everyone ends up knowing who is paid what ...

you lower the top end and gain in the middle end - and it is the middle end that is the difference between finals or not - ie amount of good depth.,

Agree re the culture piece but it's harder to fill the cap without bonafide stars which we didn't have before Charlie and Harry and Walsh etc. got these deals.

If Martin and Gov were on 800k each and let's say a couple of D graders on 200k. 4 players taking up 2m, ideal world it would be better having 4 players all on 500k.

But at the time there weren't options for 4 players from other clubs at that level coming to us to replace our 2 D-Graders.

Like I said hate the contracts. But at the same time can see why they happened when our list was kids pre big deals or shitter types not worthy of 500k or more.

 

[JustaBattler]

Agree re the culture piece but it's harder to fill the cap without bonafide stars which we didn't have before Charlie and Harry and Walsh etc. got these deals.

If Martin and Gov were on 800k each and let's say a couple of D graders on 200k. 4 players taking up 2m, ideal world it would be better having 4 players all on 500k.

But at the time there weren't options for 4 players from other clubs at that level coming to us to replace our 2 D-Graders.

Like I said hate the contracts. But at the same time can see why they happened when our list was kids pre big deals or shitter types not worthy of 500k or more.

I agree.

 

[jd2010]

I agree.

The McGovern deal I see as the sliding doors moment where our strategy and list build went out the window. And it has been a very hard patch work since.

Was that a Teague or SOS lead deal? Would be odd to be SOS to drive it hard since it was a big long contract for a 3rd tall fwd, essentially his sons long term spot at the time

 

[Blue By Blood]

Well, if that’s how it is and Voss is the umpteenth bad coaching appointment in the past 20 years then IMO the Board really needs to be purged because they have lead the Club into this mess, without learning from previous failed appointments.

What coach of high standing would want the job after such a history of sackings? You’d have to pay massive overs for a top-tier coach to be willing to risk the uncertainty and potential for reputation damage if it again goes sour.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

That part I agree with you on. Those responsible for past poor appointments should also be moved on. The board needs a rejig for sure. The off field stuff needs a massive shake up because we lag so far behind other competent clubs in that manner. But.. we have the wrong coach I think that much is pretty clear at this point in time. Rumours of player factions in the club etc. double down on that fact. The coach is responsible for keeping his players in line and building a culture where they get along. They don’t have to love each other but the players should respect each other and be working towards a common goal. This is a sign he’s lost or is beginning to lose the group.

As for what coach would want to coach us. If any potential coach didn’t want to get our head job then they’re not the right coach for us. We would want a coach who backs themselves in despite everything else because they believe in their coaching abilities, they believe in their players, and they believe in their ability to get everyone signing to the same tune. Win or show signs of improving and no one mentions the board or politics. What we don’t want however, is a coach who comes in on day one and says he will start fresh and give every player a fair chance only to then turn his back on selection integrity. Come to think of it.. that’s probably why these rumoured player factions have started.

A head coaching gig is a plumb job. Especially when you consider you have the chance to look like a hero coming in and turning around what many others have failed to do so. Quite highly paid too. Do you think Federal or Nadal ever thought they’d lose? What about Michael Jordan? The best back themselves in and put themselves in high pressure jobs/situations. Silly to think potential coaches wouldn’t want to take over our list.

 

[JustaBattler]

The McGovern deal I see as the sliding doors moment where our strategy and list build went out the window. And it has been a very hard patch work since.

Was that a Teague or SOS lead deal? Would be odd to be SOS to drive it hard since it was a big long contract for a 3rd tall fwd, essentially his sons long term spot at the time

Teague coached McGovern and Betts at Adelaide is all Ive got - yeah I think teh length of the contracts was probably forced- Carlton want a destination Club - and probably still isnt. Voss has yet to make a play for a gun player - we will see o rmnaybe not-0 if a lot of posters on here get their way....

 

[jd2010]

Those responsible for past poor appointments should also be moved on

You mean the company one of our directors is a partner at?

Hopefully they donate their time! We should have them on a retainer they do such a bad job at finding us the right coach

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Let's reduce this to basics so all farm animals can understand. A coach that keeps losing and sees his team trekking backwards will eventually get the chop.

That's all well and true, but the fact we haven't played finals since 2013 (not on legitimately/earned it since 2011) suggests the problem at the club stem far deeper than the coach, and I also believe we do not have a list capable of winning a premiership, far from it (7-10th is about our ceiling)

I can be brought around (eventually) to the concept of sacking Voss, but I also think we have to put a massive chainsaw through the list again in the next 2 and 3 years (even if we change coaches or not) and rebuild/regenerate via the draft.

At a certain point we (nor just fans, but especially the board) need to face to facts and admit that our rebuild, whilst not totally failed, has been botched in many areas (imo more so by SOS than Austin/Agresta) and we need to have at least 2-3 solid years of only adding youth/draftees from the National Draft and get rid of the conditional and overpaid players on our list (who have been here 4 plus years who also cost Teague his job)

Ronald McDonald couldn't make a Big Mac out of the sloppy ingredients on our Menu (Playing List) so even if Voss is a bad/poor coach, the list/playing group just ain't cutting the mustard, so i am definitely looking at another playing list 'renovation' first and foremost.

 

[katmanblue]

Agreed. Diesel also has CTE. The impact of this on cognitive function can be significant.

Yep.

He gets others to do all of his paperwork/typing etc for him. Have also heard of him doing some head scratching things on behalf of the club without the club knowing until afterwards and having to backtrack or undo the damage.

One incident was ordering a bunch of unnecessary computers for one department only to have the club return them and explain to him that they'd come out of the softcap.

Few other bits and pieces but he ain't shuffling a full deck.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[LuckyLee]

That part I agree with you on. Those responsible for past poor appointments should also be moved on. The board needs a rejig for sure. The off field stuff needs a massive shake up because we lag so far behind other competent clubs in that manner. But.. we have the wrong coach I think that much is pretty clear at this point in time. Rumours of player factions in the club etc. double down on that fact. The coach is responsible for keeping his players in line and building a culture where they get along. They don’t have to love each other but the players should respect each other and be working towards a common goal. This is a sign he’s lost or is beginning to lose the group.

As for what coach would want to coach us. If any potential coach didn’t want to get our head job then they’re not the right coach for us. We would want a coach who backs themselves in despite everything else because they believe in their coaching abilities, they believe in their players, and they believe in their ability to get everyone signing to the same tune. Win or show signs of improving and no one mentions the board or politics. What we don’t want however, is a coach who comes in on day one and says he will start fresh and give every player a fair chance only to then turn his back on selection integrity. Come to think of it.. that’s probably why these rumoured player factions have started.

A head coaching gig is a plumb job. Especially when you consider you have the chance to look like a hero coming in and turning around what many others have failed to do so. Quite highly paid too. Do you think Federal or Nadal ever thought they’d lose? What about Michael Jordan? The best back themselves in and put themselves in high pressure jobs/situations. Silly to think potential coaches wouldn’t want to take over our list.

You make good points and I guess a champion coach like Clarko going to the lowly Kangas supports your argument.

Would you only accept an experienced, finals-proven coach, rather than an emerging talent (which is what we opted for in McRae)? Perhaps you’ll get Hardwick or Hinkley?

Whoever you get needs the full backing of a united, strong Board, who won’t fracture and snipe from the sidelines the moment the team/coach stumbles.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Blue1980]

The problem with appointing non-experienced coaches is that they aren't a great drawcard for top-line assistants. I don't rate Hamill or Clarke and have reservations about the ex Doggies bloke - although apparently he is rated around the traps. Voss has one mate from his Brisbane days in Power looking after development.

When you appoint a coach you are paying for his past performances to sell to the sheeple- but you really should be paying for who he brings with him to help. In a well run Club your head of football should also be able to bring in quality staff - Loyd has achieved nothing as far as that goes - he has been able to keep his job though.

IF the Board want to dump Voss - they better have an eye on who the next candidate is and what resources they will bringing with them at the same time as looking at who in AFL land wants to work under Loyd - someone with no experience except sacked coaches at Carlton in his role.

As for all the player discontent rumours today - I don't give a toss - Voss picked NONE of them except the blokes in the first year and he is playing them.

IN Voss's tenure so far he has had to 'carry' perennially injured: Martin/McGovern/Williams 3 trade ins who have just in Voss's tenure delivered nothing in terms of continuity - add ( last year and now again) Pittonet, Cuningham/Marchbank and Hewett/Walsh Kennedy out for the last few games when finals were on the line.

Those who say Voss cant coach, conveniently ignore the fact that he copped a very bad run of injury last year - with crucial players missing this year as well. I can't see a coach who got Carlton playing Top4 football all of a sudden not being able to coach - I can see the effect of injury and rehabilitation being massively underestimated on here- - that as well as the real issue being he is playing with 2 forwards and not 6 every game.

For mine I do not have enough information to decide on whether Vopssy has lost the players or doesn't have a clue - you need to give time and an opportunity to finish at least a list that has starting 22 players that can play AFL football - the best players need the so-called role players in order to perform.

No way does any decent coach want to come to Carlton now - unless they have the past record of success - so that teh Board can sell that to teh Carlton supporters on here - and with that will come a massive pay ask and a long term deal - and with that - talk of a required mini-build.

The mistake was made sacking Bolton instead of bringing in quality support - that was as big mistake compounded by Teague and now people want to go back to teh same ol same ol merrygoround of nuffery.

Ridiculous petulance.

No one decent to Carlton, lol common. Other clubs have sacked coaches at a similar rate to us when they haven’t been good, and they still manage to find decent coaches.

It’s one of only 18 jobs available at the elite level, most people would love to try and prove themselves to see if they can be the ones to get us back to the top.

In terms of Voss being a crap coach, he’s pulled the wrong levers this year in terms of game style going wildly over defensive and nullifying our strengths. I also think we over compensated on our fitness program, spooked by injures last year. Now less injuries, but we’ve looked flat all year, many May as well be out with injury.

A good coach can tweak things and admit they are wrong, Voss seems determined to go down with the sinking ship while we play exactly the same way with the same result, which we now have a sample size of the last 2 months.

 

[Blue1980]

Why isnt it? Hardwick was a hopeless new coach for several years, Supporters were crying out for him to be sacked. Members were microwaving cards etc.
But something clicked, was it asst coaches? was it a senior mentor? was it a change in the playing list? I put forth that it was all these things.

That’s total BS about Hardwick, he’d taken a side from the bottom of the pile in 2010, to finals 2013-15, and won 15 games in 2 of those seasons. Then he and the club has a poor 2016.

That is why it’s not similar, because, well, they are completely different.

Ben Rutten at Essendon would be a more apt comparison.

 

[Blue1980]

Mind boggles how many roll-out the Clarkson, Thompson, Hardwick, even Goodwin comment.

None seem to realise they all had year on year improvement with credits in the bank when the down year came.

Voss brought in as a finisher to take us into finals. Not a rebuild coach. We had that with Bolton, and then Teague was meant to be same as Voss...

Sent from my SM-N981B using Tapatalk

If the rest of the year pans out with us winning only 1-2 more games, that is way worse than anything we served up under Teague.

 

[Blue1980]

Everyone runs out of reasons/excuses at some stage. My view is that excuses/reasons > proof of anything except W/L (atm)

and in saying that (FWIW) I dont agree with everything he and his assistants have done as far as player selection /position or focus points on game style.

however Ive been around long enough to know that everyone in any organisation has to have some room to make errors - otherwise there is no learning, growth or progress there is just stagnation.

As I’ve asked other posters, what is your tipping point which will show you Voss isn’t the guy.

Mine as I said a month ago, was win at least a game before the bye, didn’t seem to be asking too much, now it seems I’d be criticised for being unrealistic.

So if we lose every game for the rest of the year, should we still keep Voss for next season?

 

[Blue1980]

The McGovern deal I see as the sliding doors moment where our strategy and list build went out the window. And it has been a very hard patch work since.

Was that a Teague or SOS lead deal? Would be odd to be SOS to drive it hard since it was a big long contract for a 3rd tall fwd, essentially his sons long term spot at the time

2018, bolts still coach, I’d be pinning that on sos

 

[Beyond Blue]

I like it.

Experience is another word for mistakes -

*paraphrasing Oscar Wilde

…and “learnings” too!

I’m just not too sure where “nourishment” fits in however…

 

[Blue By Blood]

You make good points and I guess a champion coach like Clarko going to the lowly Kangas supports your argument.

Would you only accept an experienced, finals-proven coach, rather than an emerging talent (which is what we opted for in McRae)? Perhaps you’ll get Hardwick or Hinkley?

Whoever you get needs the full backing of a united, strong Board, who won’t fracture and snipe from the sidelines the moment the team/coach stumbles.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Personally I wouldn't mind if it was an experienced or inexperienced coach so long as this time we actually follow through with a competent selection and interview process like any successful organization should. This is where we have come unstuck time and time again. We keep picking the wrong guys because politics and board room antics come in to play.

Agree, whoever gets the job needs good support around them and some stability. Unfortunately, whilst Voss hasn't had this, he's also proven over two stints now at Brisbane and Carlton that he's had issues with keeping player unity and harmony in check (if the recent rumours are true). Sometimes you just have to admit you got it wrong (again) and rectify the situation, hopefully learning from previous failures.

 

[myblueroan]

An owner of a bar in Bali ...

 

[Bostonian]

I can see he's receiving most votes

Some of us wanted him when they went Voss.

Nothing has changed that view.

 

[JustaBattler]

As I’ve asked other posters, what is your tipping point which will show you Voss isn’t the guy.

Mine as I said a month ago, was win at least a game before the bye, didn’t seem to be asking too much, now it seems I’d be criticised for being unrealistic.

So if we lose every game for the rest of the year, should we still keep Voss for next season?

My tipping will be when Carlton fields a forward lien with 6 forwards in it and a midfield comprised of 100% fit players - still can't kick more than 10 goals a game.

You blokes that want to blame Voss for all this- go right ahead - enjoy your time in the sun and keep drinking your own buckets of tears.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

My tipping will be when Carlton fields a forward lien with 6 forwards in it and a midfield comprised of 100% fit players - still can't kick more than 10 goals a game.

You blokes that want to blame Voss for all this- go right ahead - enjoy your time in the sun and keep drinking your own buckets of tears.

No one is blaming Voss in isolation....

But, like it or not, he's got very limited time to save his own ass...it's an unforgiving game...

Not talking about nourishment and playing "our way" would be a decent start!!