Mind and Body

[pumped]

Went to the G on Saturday and cannot remember ever being more impressed with a Carlton side or a game in general. Sure games like the 99 prelim may have been more exciting but for sheer desperation, integrity and intensity I thought this game was amazing. I believe Hawthorn threw more at us than they did Geelong in the GF and the Carlton players just kept standing up.

The point of this thread is to discuss the mental aspect of this physical performance. Can Carlton play consistently at this level of intensity and if so how. My belief is that people should be able to perform at their best so long as they are secure individuals. Up until now I have not had much faith in how secure emotionally the Carlton group are. I have also previously stated that the best performers are those who are the most emotionally secure.

This is something that 30y/o blue for one questioned me on. He cited players like Carey, Cousins and GAblett snr to refute my claim. He may be right although I have since wondered if certain people have so much ability and confidence in certain fields that their instability emotionally doesn't affect them in the areas of life that they are most gifted in. This also relates to certain discussions this week about Carlton's bottom 6.

Players such as Cloke and Russell do not have the ability of the star players mentioned above. However they are capable in skill and have shown that they can play at an acceptable level of footy at times. On Saturday they seemed to self sabotague their performance levels at stages through the game. I believe that it was a combination of things that had them do this. I beleive that it is human nature to fear loss in life. That this is most apparent when we desire something greatly and/or find ourselves out of our comfort zones.

Given guys like Russell and Cloke are not blessed with supreme skills I would imagine that playing in such a high intensity game could create great mental pressure if they are not emotionally secure people. I do not know these guys so am making this as a suggestion not a fact. However looking at how Cloke rushed certain disposals and how Russell lost his feet so many times it would be reasoneable to suggest that a lack of self belief affected them.

If there is truth to the theory that Carlton are lacking in mental strength then attention to this area could make even our bottom 6 up to premiership team standards. Further even some of our more skilled players like Stevens, Houlihan, Waite and Thornton have had moments of inconsistency with their output.I believe that the best sides are the ones where self belief is very strong.

One suggestion I would have is for the Club to really encourage players to go deeply into their own fears of loss. Even people like Fev can be affected by mental pressure. He stated that he wasn't tight in the final kick but it would seem likely that he was not as free as normal. Further the bottom 6 did seem to become more transparent in a game with such a high standard of skill and intensity. If this is an issue at Carlton then perhaps attention at a deep level in this area could bring success sonner than later. At the very least it may provide us with more fulfilling spectacles like the one we witnessed aganst the Hawks.

 

[CJ09]

i just hope that we never get into the habit of liking honorable loses and accepting them. saturday hurt like hell. we should have won.

 

[Jezza U Beauty]

You raise interesting and very valid points pumped.

I have 2 comments.

1. I have no doubt that the Sports Psych that works with the club (i forget his name) does work on this stuff with the players.

2. Confidence/composure/consistency in big games can improve with experience. Some people (Kernahan, Bradley, Judd, etc) can produce it naturally, others need repeated exposure to the atmosphere and pressure. Clokey and JR wouldn't have experienced that level of intensity/pressure in a game (that we were very much a chance to win) before - they'll be better for it.

 

[gbatman]

some valid points have been made but you will find the bottom few players of a side will always be exposed when they come up against the best. The bottom few players of a side are good at their own level but when the level becomes higher they aren't up to it and there are different levels and standards within leagues.

footy ability has a lot to do with what's above the shoulders and some people don't have it up there. One thing you will notice is that really good players don't know how to tone it down. Even in practice games the better players go as hard as they can.

If a player doesn't have it mentally it's nearly as bad as not being able to run very fast or being too small etc. It's just the way they are and all they can do is work on it.

 

[HBF]

Great post pumped.
Like you, what I admired about Carlton on Saturday was their ability to cope with the pressure that Hawthorn applied to us, right throughout the game. Hawthorn are the best at it in AFL by some way, and when they force a turnover, they make you pay.

Yes, we did fumble, but what was noticable, was they we were also able to apply similar pressure to Hawthorn also, thus making it a great game. Whether we can do this week in, week out is our next challenge, but with a core group of players that have been together for a while now, I see no reason why we can't.

 

[lily of laguna]

Mental toughness is crucial to pushing through barriers in sport, the ability to believe in your own and your teams ability to triumph even when you are behind is vital.

I believe that we as a team have shown some amazing mental toughness to get over the line in tight matches and even when pretty far behind the opposition.

There are times when this belief will get you over the line and there are times when it wont, thats sport (and life in general).

I know it was an example only, but I dont think Cloke lacks confidence. He had an off day and is comparatively slow which we all knew would see him get shown up from time to time.

As has already been posted, confidence comes through being successful and getting the winning feeling and that is something that our team will only get more exposure to as we climb the ladder.

 

[gbatman]

We fumbled a lot! Was that the pressure perhaps?

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Great post !!

Some really interesting and valid points. But really really deep for BigFooty!

My brain hurts from just reading it.....

Anyway, back to work.......MMMMMM Doughnuts

 

[Bronx Bomber]

i just hope that we never get into the habit of liking honorable loses and accepting them. saturday hurt like hell. we should have won.

Great point! We can't accept that as being good enough.
I'm pretty sure and it was obvious to most that Fev and alot of the playing group were really hurting after that loss.
This week will be a really important game, if we come out and smash Freo then we can say that this group has come along way but if we fall to there level then maybe some questions need to be asked.

 

[blueblooded]

Great point! We can't accept that as being good enough.
I'm pretty sure and it was obvious to most that Fev and alot of the playing group were really hurting after that loss.
This week will be a really important game, if we come out and smash Freo then we can say that this group has come along way but if we fall to there level then maybe some questions need to be asked.

Didnt seem to be hurting at the Bar on Saturday night until the wee hours, i was fairly amazed and pretty upset to see a number of senior players and a number of key junior players drinking to excess and out til very late. Needless to say the captain was the first to leave, needless to say who was the last to leave. I'm not going to name names but i was interested to see who went along for the ride with him and i wasnt all that happy. Poor behavior doesnt win premierships and as members who facilitate these blokes wages we expect better preperation and peformance, we dont want Fev corrupting these young guys, thats what i saw Saturday night! The behavior of some of them was ordinary considering we have a season defining month coming up, the players i'm pretty certain don't care as much as the supporters, win lose or draw they still get a healthy paycheck and that'd be enough to down the pain of any close loss!

I hope the club is on top of the behavior of some of our players, I think they've given up on Fev off field as long as he doesnt end up on the news they're happy, they've got to get on top of the younger guys before it becomes a problem... They are the future of the club and they followed the wrong leader on the weekend, should've gone home when Judd did! Its called professionalism and many severely lacked it off field on the weekend.

We the members cannot sit idle while cowboys ruin any chance we have of building a professional team who's performance on field is driven by everything they do off field. I'm not to sure what we can do about it though...

 

[FRUMPY]

Didnt seem to be hurting at the Bar on Saturday night until the wee hours, i was fairly amazed and pretty upset to see a number of senior players and a number of key junior players drinking to excess and out til very late. Needless to say the captain was the first to leave, needless to say who was the last to leave. I'm not going to name names but i was interested to see who went along for the ride with him and i wasnt all that happy. Poor behavior doesnt win premierships and as members who facilitate these blokes wages we expect better preperation and peformance, we dont want Fev corrupting these young guys, thats what i saw Saturday night! The behavior of some of them was ordinary considering we have a season defining month coming up, the players i'm pretty certain don't care as much as the supporters, win lose or draw they still get a healthy paycheck and that'd be enough to down the pain of any close loss!

I hope the club is on top of the behavior of some of our players, I think they've given up on Fev off field as long as he doesnt end up on the news they're happy, they've got to get on top of the younger guys before it becomes a problem... They are the future of the club and they followed the wrong leader on the weekend, should've gone home when Judd did! Its called professionalism and many severely lacked it off field on the weekend.

We the members cannot sit idle while cowboys ruin any chance we have of building a professional team who's performance on field is driven by everything they do off field. I'm not to sure what we can do about it though...

Whatever mate, players are allowed to go out for a drink. I love it how they are such terrible people for being out drinking at a late hour and yet you were still there out drinking till late. Didnt you have to work next week? Doesnt matter if they are footballers, they still have the right to do what they were doing.

All players go out drinking. Dont fool yourself. Let the boys let their hair down and have a bit of fun. It is a great way to build a close bond between the group.

 

[blueblooded]

Whatever mate, players are allowed to go out for a drink. I love it how they are such terrible people for being out drinking at a late hour and yet you were still there out drinking till late. Didnt you have to work next week? Doesnt matter if they are footballers, they still have the right to do what they were doing.

All players go out drinking. Dont fool yourself. Let the boys let their hair down and have a bit of fun. It is a great way to build a close bond between the group.

Never said they cant drink, mate i was having a drink with them, but to keep going til 5 in the morning mid season is not the habits u want to be getting into, they are not ordinary people with ordinary jobs they are highly paid professional athletes who are employed to look after their bodies and perform at the level that is required, common sense has got to prevail come a certain time and certain level of intoxication, in my eyes some of them didnt do the right thing by themselves and the club, which is not good enough imo considering i spend almost a weeks wage per year on a top of the range membership to help facilitate their wages. My opininon.

 

[as0l0]

All players go out drinking. Dont fool yourself. Let the boys let their hair down and have a bit of fun. It is a great way to build a close bond between the group.

if it's the difference between a premiership and not then I'd rather they be tucked in bed safe and sound. Then again, if drinking and being out late wins premierships, then do that instead.

 

[pumped]

Never said they cant drink, mate i was having a drink with them, but to keep going til 5 in the morning mid season is not the habits u want to be getting into, they are not ordinary people with ordinary jobs they are highly paid professional athletes who are employed to look after their bodies and perform at the level that is required, common sense has got to prevail come a certain time and certain level of intoxication, in my eyes some of them didnt do the right thing by themselves and the club, which is not good enough imo considering i spend almost a weeks wage per year on a top of the range membership to help facilitate their wages. My opininon.

Tend to agree with blueblood. If this is true then it is not great for the club. Going out and having fun is fine but there is balance I would have thought. Getting drunk and being out at 5am is suggesting an addiction of sorts. Yes this may be the norm for many young people but it is not the sort of activity that is going to bring excellence in life or on a footy field. If we want to be in line for a premiership then 5am drinking sessions would want to be the exception not the norm. Fev is yet to show that he has any control over his emotions or his intensity. Wonderfully talented but a long way to go as a leader.

 

[Malifice]

Tend to agree with blueblood. If this is true then it is not great for the club. Going out and having fun is fine but there is balance I would have thought. Getting drunk and being out at 5am is suggesting an addiction of sorts. Yes this may be the norm for many young people but it is not the sort of activity that is going to bring excellence in life or on a footy field. If we want to be in line for a premiership then 5am drinking sessions would want to be the exception not the norm. Fev is yet to show that he has any control over his emotions or his intensity. Wonderfully talented but a long way to go as a leader.

I disagree slightly. Im more in the mold of 'work hard, play hard'.

As long as no laws are being broken, its perfectly acceptable to enjoy a big night out.

 

[johnsy14]

Didnt seem to be hurting at the Bar on Saturday night until the wee hours, i was fairly amazed and pretty upset to see a number of senior players and a number of key junior players drinking to excess and out til very late. Needless to say the captain was the first to leave, needless to say who was the last to leave. I'm not going to name names but i was interested to see who went along for the ride with him and i wasnt all that happy. Poor behavior doesnt win premierships and as members who facilitate these blokes wages we expect better preperation and peformance, we dont want Fev corrupting these young guys, thats what i saw Saturday night! The behavior of some of them was ordinary considering we have a season defining month coming up, the players i'm pretty certain don't care as much as the supporters, win lose or draw they still get a healthy paycheck and that'd be enough to down the pain of any close loss!

I hope the club is on top of the behavior of some of our players, I think they've given up on Fev off field as long as he doesnt end up on the news they're happy, they've got to get on top of the younger guys before it becomes a problem... They are the future of the club and they followed the wrong leader on the weekend, should've gone home when Judd did! Its called professionalism and many severely lacked it off field on the weekend.

We the members cannot sit idle while cowboys ruin any chance we have of building a professional team who's performance on field is driven by everything they do off field. I'm not to sure what we can do about it though...

Perhaps with the redevelopment of VISY Park, why don't you suggest a holding facilty, a type of jail, could be built so the players can live and work at the one place. They can be let out to train and for matches but lockdown would be in force at all other times. That should stop the horrendous evil you describe from occurring. If you were made the Gatekeeper it would then also stop you having to go out and engage in similar evil acts whilst keeping a watchful eye on them.

 

[blueblooded]

Perhaps with the redevelopment of VISY Park, why don't you suggest a holding facilty, a type of jail, could be built so the players can live and work at the one place. They can be let out to train and for matches but lockdown would be in force at all other times. That should stop the horrendous evil you describe from occurring. If you were made the Gatekeeper it would then also stop you having to go out and engage in similar evil acts whilst keeping a watchful eye on them.

where did i say they should not be allowed to go out or have a drink?? I'm all for it, however a bit of common sense from players should take place, a few didnt show that and thats what i was disappointed about. Last time i checked we were 3-3 and haven't played finals in 8 years!! 3am should be the absolute limit imo any later and you're asking for trouble more than anything. A few were out well past that hour, to top it off they had recovery at 10am....thats not professional thats not what wins you premierships, this is not the 80s!

 

[40yearBLUE]

I have been keeping a low profile on this one for a while because my opinions are strong and can polarise. I can hold back no longer.

I am on the side of abstinance. ENFORCED. A couple of months ago I started a thread about this very issue and got 2 other posts to it. In my opinion, sports stars, in fact anyone in the upper echelons of the entertainment industry are not ordinary workers. An ordinary worker does not earn anywhere near the kind of money these guys earn for performing at most 20 hours a week paid work (training and playing plus travel to and from games) and some charity work and dont get treated like royalty everywhere they go, they/we have to que in the street like ordinary people. Rarely would even the highest paid mine workers for example, have enough money to retire on at 32. That most footballers dont have that kind of money left when they retire says more about their intelligence than it does their rates of pay.

So they are not ordinary workers. So as extra ordinary workers they have extra onerous conditions placed on them. Thems the rules of the game. The problem is some players are more extra ordinary than others. (They would not be in 30yearworld). In another thread last week I questioned whether Fev was more harm to our prospects longer term than good as a discussion topic raised in an article by jack Niall that day suggested. Again minimal responce to it or others calling me a dill for even suggesting the great man may be disruptive to our development.

Anyway back on point. I have long maintained a zero tollerance policy when it comes to cerfews, alcohol (and drugs) for AFL players during season. During the season off time your time and body is your own, in season it belongs to the club. Thats the deal, take it or leave it. This should be drummed into players at rookie camp. ZERO tollerance. If you dont like it, go play ametuers or lower levels, get as drunk as you like after a game and we will never ever hear of it (or care), of course you wont get a drink card or VIP entry into Motel, or whatever the trendy spot is this year, nor will you get gazillions of dollars, but hey you get to drink till 5am every Saturday night with your team mates.

Its a no brainer for no brainers.

I am sure all players at all clubs go out and some stay out till 5am. Sooner or later a club is going to say no, you cant do that here and build from there and if they are the only ones to do it they will have an uninterupted reign at the top until the other teams figure it out. The sooner they do this the better. I hope we have the guts to do it first. We drew a line in the sand with Angwin and that other pickle whose name eludes me. I guess as a result of the tight contest and tired bodies there wasnt an early recovery session Sunday, if there was I wonder if breath tests were performed. Perhaps they ought to be. How can you be out until 5am or later, then turn up to a recovery session and not be affected by the lack of sleep.

Anway, if this late night is true and I have no reason to doubt it, I wonder if this team really does want to honour Dick properly. He never stayed out past 10pm and was up for work at 5am every day. Pity his legacy only lasted a bit under a week for some of them.

 

[Sublime]

Whoa. Too many long paragraphs in here

*backs out slowly*

 

[Malifice]

Perhaps with the redevelopment of VISY Park, why don't you suggest a holding facilty, a type of jail, could be built so the players can live and work at the one place. They can be let out to train and for matches but lockdown would be in force at all other times. That should stop the horrendous evil you describe from occurring. If you were made the Gatekeeper it would then also stop you having to go out and engage in similar evil acts whilst keeping a watchful eye on them.

Ok - this was just balls funny.

I have been keeping a low profile on this one for a while because my opinions are strong and can polarise. I can hold back no longer.

I am on the side of abstinance. ENFORCED.

30YB - You know I respect ya man - but not on this one. Just because a bloke is famous it shouldnt mean that you cant have a normal and healthy social life. In my Army days, it was a case of rock up to work and do your job -and do it at 110%.

But in your own time, your time is your own.

The boys should be held to a higher standard yes. They are role models for kids, and part of the big money they earn comes from the Corporate sponsorship dollars pumped into the AFL and the Club. And the corporations want a return on their investment in the form of good publicity and image.

As long as they are responsible about it (ie no running through University dorms blotto setting off fire extinguishers and harassing young women, pissing on windows at 3 am, getting Irish barmen into headlocks, walking around the city with a Dildo strapped to them in broad daylight, and shagging Laura Bingle while married and getting caught ) well then I dont see aproblem with it.

Seriously though, theres a difference between having a huge night out and being inapproprate/ stupid/ criminal. As long as it doesnt cross the line (and the players front up at the times required and in the right shape) im fine with it.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Ok - this was just balls funny.



30YB - You know I respect ya man - but not on this one. Just because a bloke is famous it shouldnt mean that you cant have a normal and healthy social life. In my Army days, it was a case of rock up to work and do your job -and do it at 110%.

But in your own time, your time is your own.

The boys should be held to a higher standard yes. They are role models for kids, and part of the big money they earn comes from the Corporate sponsorship dollars pumped into the AFL and the Club. And the corporations want a return on their investment in the form of good publicity and image.

As long as they are responsible about it (ie no running through University dorms blotto setting off fire extinguishers and harassing young women, pissing on windows at 3 am, getting Irish barmen into headlocks, walking around the city with a Dildo strapped to them in broad daylight, and shagging Laura Bingle while married and getting caught ) well then I dont see aproblem with it.

Seriously though, theres a difference between having a huge night out and being inapproprate/ stupid/ criminal. As long as it doesnt cross the line (and the players front up at the times required and in the right shape) im fine with it.

Fair enough. I bet you didnt get paid $300000 a year fixed for 3 years when you signed up to serve our country. Maybe if they asked you to abstain from alchohol and anything likely to be frowned upon by the blue rinse set and offered you that kind of financial inducement you might have taken them up on it. I would.

IMO it is only a matter of time before clubs searching for that edge start to outline the exact rules of conduct including an off licensed premises cerfew. And breath testing morning sessions and blood testing etc. I have no problem with it. If I had the talent and they were the conditions of an AFL career I would not bat an eyelid and honour it to the letter. Playing AFL football is not a right it is an honour and players ought to start treating it that way.

I have a hyperthetical for you. The team beats the Hawks by 3 points in the preliminary final. Do you think its ok for them to go out Saturday night after the game and be out at 5am, some of them clearly drunk (not disorderly, not doing anyone any harm)? Is that the kind of preperation you think acceptable in the lead up the a Grand Final?

If not, why would it be acceptable at any time. Each game lost could be the difference between a double chance and shot at a flag or 5th and instant elimination. Thats my take on it.

 

[mushda]

I don't think I would go as far as to suggest complete abstinence throughout the season, but I am quite dissapointed if what blueblooded said is true. Yes the players are human but the moment they sign the papers and become AFL footballers, they accept a set of extra responsibilities to go with the incredible opportunity they are receiving.

To stay out for that long mid season is just not good enough and plain stupid, the players should be committed to the cause and know how to limit their behaviour in accordance with that.

Remember our motto: "Mens sana in corpore sano" A healthy mind in a healthy body.

 

[johnsy14]

I think a few things need pointing out here.

1. Dick Pratt - passed away and had funeral during the week. Very emotional times. What happens after any funeral? A wake, a drink for the person that has moved on and personally if you're close to the person that has left I think you almost need a drink in this situation. I'd be sure many of the players would have felt like having a drink but couldn't. Saturday night would have been the first chance the guys had as a group to properly reflect on his life and what he did for the club, unload built up emotions and have a drink for Dick.

2. Team rules. Who knows what the team rules are but unless you're breaking them then there's no issue. The way AFL's heading I'm pretty sure sooner rarther than later there'll be team rules that include no alcohol. If one club does it and are successful the others will follow. At the moment it's obviously ok for players to drink at certain times and in any group of blokes there are those that go home early and those that stay out very late that's just human nature.

3. AFL Players are young men. I'm sure us older blokes can recall the days you could go out 2 or 3 nights in a row and get pretty plastered and go to work the next day - no problems. As you get older 1 big night out and you feel ordinary for days after. Young blokes recover very quickly and being fit athletes that would help even more.

4. Young men bond over beers. Ever join a club or a group and until everyone gets to know each other things are a bit reserved. Give the group a chance to get together over a few bevs and that's when friendships are made and barriers are broken down.

I'm not advocating drinking as a training aid but I'm suggesting these young men need to be treated as young men and be allowed to unwind at times not locked up and only let out to play football. Evolution will one day see the banning of alcohol at certain times for players but until it does allow these men to have some normality in their lives.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I think a few things need pointing out here.

1. Dick Pratt - passed away and had funeral during the week. Very emotional times. What happens after any funeral? A wake, a drink for the person that has moved on and personally if you're close to the person that has left I think you almost need a drink in this situation. I'd be sure many of the players would have felt like having a drink but couldn't. Saturday night would have been the first chance the guys had as a group to properly reflect on his life and what he did for the club, unload built up emotions and have a drink for Dick. This is one of the myths that needs to be broken. There is no medical, psychological or anecdotal evidence that getting drunk is good for anything, mourning, socializing whatever.

2. Team rules. Who knows what the team rules are but unless you're breaking them then there's no issue. The way AFL's heading I'm pretty sure sooner rarther than later there'll be team rules that include no alcohol. If one club does it and are successful the others will follow. At the moment it's obviously ok for players to drink at certain times and in any group of blokes there are those that go home early and those that stay out very late that's just human nature. I dont have any evidence but my guess would be the better the team the less players they have in the latter and more in the former.

3. AFL Players are young men. I'm sure us older blokes can recall the days you could go out 2 or 3 nights in a row and get pretty plastered and go to work the next day - no problems. As you get older 1 big night out and you feel ordinary for days after. Young blokes recover very quickly and being fit athletes that would help even more. Athletes might recover to 98% full physical and mental ability. What would you rather, a player at 98% or one at 100%? I go back to the night after a prelim win analogy. Do you want your preperation for the GF to include a night on the turps or not? If you answer no for a GF then I see no difference between that game or any other, they are becoming all equally important to be at your best for. That one poor game could end your career. Dropped to the 2nd mid season after a poor performance and never to regain your spot, all because you went out for a night out on the grog, might even have been the only time you did it but tell it to the judge.

4. Young men bond over beers. Ever join a club or a group and until everyone gets to know each other things are a bit reserved. Give the group a chance to get together over a few bevs and that's when friendships are made and barriers are broken down. Why does it have to be over beers? What is this magical hold alchohol has over people? And I am guessing that at 5am, more than a few were consumed. I just dont get the attraction, never have.

I'm not advocating drinking as a training aid but I'm suggesting these young men need to be treated as young men and be allowed to unwind at times not locked up and only let out to play football. Evolution will one day see the banning of alcohol at certain times for players but until it does allow these men to have some normality in their lives.

No problem, I have the solution. Back to semi pro conditions for them, no multi million or even multi thousand dollar contracts, day jobs, no sponsors, no indoor stadiums, no massive TV deals, just the replay of a quarter from 3 of the games on the ABC Saturday night. No worries, they can become "normal" again.

 

[arizonalipo]

Hey that is very very very long and i am boring read your thread. In short sentence you tell me what are you asking about mind and body. They different or combine or anyone. Please tell about new for this topic. Please this one.