Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by rbartlett, Aug 2, 2017.

Put it out there
  1. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    I've exhausted avenues I can think of for "Rhoda" - details below for anyone who wants to pick up the threads such as they are.
    Family
    Parents: Alexander McDonald (1852–27 Dec 1926) m Isabella Lavery (1854–1890)
    Edith Melville McDonald (1876–1941)
    Robert Ernest McDonald (1878– after 1926)
    Elsie Bassett McDonald (1880– before 1926)
    Arthur Reginald McDonald (1882–1925)
    Norman Douglas McDonald (1884–1917)
    Beatrice Florence McDonald (1886–24 Sep 1955) m David John Blake
    Bassett Alexandria McDonald (1888–1890)

    Both Alexander and Robert were bootmakers by profession according to electoral rolls.
    Robert lived in the same street as his father until 1913 electoral roll and then moves away – I have not been able to find any evidence of where he went.

    His father’s death notice in Dec 1926 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202195689) indicates Robert was still living at that time. No siblings are mentioned in death notices for Beatrice Florence in 1955 and I haven't found any death notice on Trove for Edith (according to her BDM record she did not marry)
     
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  2. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    You've actually opened a new line of enquiry for me.

    McCartney came to South Melbourne in 1896 from West Melbourne juniors

    cf Recorder 11 April 1896

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108477869

    and was playing there in 1894

    Sportsman 24 August 1894

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227717067
    He was possibly playing for Coburg as a junior in 1890

    Sportsman 18 June 1890

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227939924

    This identification with Coburg is supposition as there is no initial but given he was born apparently ( and I say apparently as it might be earlier) in 1874 and that would make him 16 then.

    Bear in mind that West Melbourne football club operated from North Melbourne reserve in 1899 and reports are often found in North Melbourne papers.

    He may then have gone then to Ballarat before finding his way to West Melbourne.

    This report of 14 May 1898 has McCartney standing aside for recruits
    Australasian 14 May 1898
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138666616
    which may tie in with him becoming Captain for West Melbourne in 1898
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article106847867



    So what does this tell me relevant to our enquiry?

    His football history appears to be Coburg, possibly Ballarat, West Melbourne, South Melbourne ( for a year), West Melbourne, Essendon.

    He appears to have had a football association ( and one may then presume that he had a family connection) with the North Melbourne, Coburg, West Melbourne area especially given that people were less mobile in the old century than they are now.

    I can't find anything definite on him post 1899, but he would then have been only 25.

    He started in round 2 in 1899, so that would suggest he was with Essendon pre season.
     
  3. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    On Ted Brewis the 1994 might be another Edward or a complete coincidence. FindMyPast has an Edward Brewis passing 1994 in Weston/Kurri Kurri NSW.

    Chasing this up I have seen a Billion Graves picture of a 1994 date but the deceased is listed as 84 not 93
    http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=2497065#images as I expected. The NSW Edward Brewis married in Kurri Kurri in 1937 ( ironically same year as Edward Gordon married Teresa Rule) I can see no NSW birth record

    Ancestry are saying an Edward Gordon Brewis is on the 1980 electoral roll in Isaacs Victoria. I can see the logic behind this , wife passes in Qld in 1978 , moves back to Melbourne. Can someone confirm electoral address?

    No listing then under VIC BDM ( ends end of 1989)
     
  4. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    Living in Seaford
    Brewis, Edward Gordon ..... 22 Fortescue Ave, Seafd S, -- (no occupation)

    No other Brewis is listed in the Seaford electoral roll in 1980
     
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  5. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    Re Charles McCartney.

    I don't get full access to Ancestry but there were 2 Charles McCartneys on the electoral roll in Melbourne in about 1903 to to 1905.

    There was Charles McCartney ( no middle name) who was resident in the Yarra and Melbourne electorates from 1903 to 1906 but no further.

    Then there was Charles Perry McCartney who was resident in the Kooyong and then Flinders electorate. From what I know the Kooyong electorate is in the east of Melbourne.

    So I suspect that he was Charles McCartney simpliciter.

    Then after 1908 Charles McCartney disappears but Charles Samuel McCartney then appears in the electoral roll in 1912 and continues living in the Yarra electorate to 1931.

    I can't get access to the actual address of McCartney simpliciter or C S McCarthy but if he lived around the Essendon\ North Melbourne or Coburg area we may have our man.
     
  6. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    Charles Perry certainly played sport but this obit doesnt mention football. Does mention he was an MCC life member
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26423413 and said he captained baseball and cricket sides
     
  7. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    The report says C P McCartney was 66 in 1947 which gives him a DOB in about 1881 which would make him about 16 in 1897. So I have a suspicion that it is not him.

    Remember with electoral rolls they only start from about 1903 because federation occurred in 1901 and the rolls were produced for the Commonwealth so the fact that a fellow appears first on the electoral rolls in 1903 does not mean he was 21 ( also remember you could not also vote until you were 21 then) but purely that it was the first time that a person was registered on the electoral roll)
     
  8. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    This bloke McCartney just gets more and more mysterious.

    AFL tables has him playing for Essendon in 1899 in rounds 2,3, 4 and 7 (against St Kilda, South Melbourne, Carlton and Collingwood) (as does Wikipedia)

    Essendon's past player profile of him says this:

    "
    Number(s):

    Games: 3
    Goals: 0

    Previous Clubs: West Melbourne/South Melbourne


    Charlie McCartney was a half-back who came to Essendon from South Melbourne where he played 14 games in 1897.

    His only games for Essendon were in Rounds 7, 8 and 9, 1899, for losses to Collingwood and Fitzroy and a win over St Kilda."

    So Essendon has him as playing 3 games later in the season against Collingwood, Fitzroy and St Kilda.

    So we have a dispute.

    So what do the contemporary reports say?

    On about 1 June 1899, McCartney was cleared from South Melbourne to Essendon.

    The Argus 1 June 1899

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974

    The Age 19 June 1899 says he played against Collingwood.
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202624980

    Now the fun part. As I mentioned AFL tables has him playing rounds 2, 3 and 4 as well as the Collingwood game.

    Round 4 in 1899 was the Essendon - Carlton game played on .............27 May 1899, before the clearance I have included above.

    I doubt that Essendon would play him without a clearance and he was listed as a new player in the Essendon - Collingwood match report so I doubt he would have played in those first 3 games he is supposed to have played. Which means AFL records is possibly wrong as to number of games for Essendon and when they were played.

    So are the Essendon records correct. More to the point, the date of data may be only the first problem with McCartney's data in the AFL's records.
     
  9. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    There were three Charles McCartneys (and all had middle names, although not always used in electoral rolls) - I think Charles Patrick is our man
    Details from individual electoral roll entries are below....
    PERSON ELECTORAL ROLL NAME: RESIDENCE: NOTES
    Charles Perry Macartney Charles Perry Macartney 1903 - Yarra Ward, Kooyong, Victoria, Australia
    Charles Perry Macartney 1905 - Berwick, Flinders, Victoria, Australia
    Charles Perry Macartney 1909 - Canterbury, Kooyong, Victoria, Australia
    Charles Perry Macartney 1912 - Malvern East, Kooyong, Victoria, Australia
    Charles Perry Macartney 1913 - Malvern East, Henty, Victoria, Australia
    Charles Perry Macartney 1914 - Sandringham, Henty, Victoria, Australia
    Charles Perry Macartney 1915 - Sandringham, Henty, Victoria, Australia​
    Charles Samuel McCartney Charles McCartney 1903 - Richmond Central, Yarra, Victoria, Australia 7 Charlotte St; driver; with Frances
    Charles McCartney 1906 - Richmond Central, Yarra, Victoria, Australia 7 Charlotte St; driver; alone
    Charles McCartney 1908 - Richmond North, Yarra, Victoria, Australia 134 Church St; driver; with Jane
    Charles Samuel McCartney 1912 - Richmond South, Yarra, Victoria, Australia 61 Stephenson St; driver; with Jane
    Charles Samuel McCartney 1914 - Richmond South, Yarra, Victoria, Australia 61 Stephenson St; driver; with Jane​
    Charles Patrick McCartney Charles McCartney 1905 - Railway, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 200 Roden St; implement expert; with Alice Maud
    Charles Macartney 1909 - Melbourne West, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 177 Adderley St; engine-driver; with Alice
    Charles Macartney 1912 - West Melbourne, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 177 Adderley St; expert; with Alice
    Charles Macartney 1913 - West Melbourne, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 177 Adderley St; expert; with Alice
    Charles Macartney 1914 - Melbourne West, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 177 Adderley St; expert; with Alice
    Charles Macartney 1915 - West Melbourne, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia 177 Adderley St; expert; with Alice
    Charles Macartney 1922 - Newport, Melbourne Ports, Victoria, Australia Hudson St; warehouseman; with Alice M
    Charles P Macartney 1931 - Newport, Melbourne Ports, Victoria, Australia Hudson St; warehouseman; alone​
     
  10. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    I have dismissed this person on the age and obit info
    C
    Charles Samuel was born 1857-1937 making him 40 years old while playing

    Obit of Alice Maud 1925 confirms Spotswood connection to 1949 Charles http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69515494

    I am with the croucher on this one. I am leaning towards the last one who dies in 1949 son of Francis Mc and Ann Ryan
     
  11. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    It's not the first time that I get the answer early, check, have some doubts and come back to the first answer.

    I reckon, with the evidence now available to us, that it's C Patrick McCartney.

    200 Roden Street is actually in West Melbourne. McCartney besides a short stint at South Melbourne played with clubs in the largely western side of Melbourne and lived in the western side of Melbourne.

    Also being an engine driver\expert may also lend itself to a later career at International Harvester.
     

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  12. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    Totally agree - given reports of his mother's death as per Croucher's earlier post that tie in to footballer, West Melbourne connections and ability to rule out other candidates think we can call this one as death in Colac on 26 May 1949 as per http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22731202

    His names across all records are a mix of McCartney and MacCartney - this is not unusual for that era.
    It appears Bert Howson in http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165033308 was incorrect about McCartney.
     
  13. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    Before we put anything up to the AFL, I prefer to err on the side of excess research rather than not enough.
     
  14. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    I'll hold off until we get consensus to submit
     
  15. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    For the sake off clarity, I'm happy with the Charles Patrick McCartney of West Melbourne identification.
     
  16. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    Can I ask where and how are names determined? Some I can understand but for example where does James ' Jim' Gordon Lyons eventuate?

    Or a Joseph Thomas Lee etc. I ask because it 'looks' as if somebody has seen a name, looked for a close enough birth date and used that

    On Jim Lyons and in no way do I say I am perfect or a good researcher but one or two things are slightly off. eg Jim Lyons and son are noted players in the Ballaraat league but the dates dont tally. The note for Lyons says Parkville as his club but the only Lyons I see is as secretary and at 18-19 I find that a stretch. Especially as he is also secretary in 1897 when a Lyons plays for Carlton.

    I am not trying to dismiss the efforts of others before us , I just want clarification on how names have been arrived at :)
     
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  17. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    Agreed, it's why I try to verify everything, especially if the player played between 1897 to 1915 because sometimes the records are, to put it nicely, not all that clear.

    As I've pointed out before,a lot of VFL records were compiled pre Trove. As someone who researched pre Trove, the process was one grabbed the microfilm of one or two newspapers ( in my case I looked 4 or 5), might have got a reference to a "Jim" playing for X side and had to go to the microfiches then of the BDM. If one wanted to, they'd go to the ANZAC records and that may help them,......may.

    Even the club records were haphazard and, even if not, might record "J Smith" instead James Smith and , even if it said James Smith, usually did not record the middle name.

    I'm not putting down the valiant efforts of the early historians, far from it, they usually did a magnificent job given the state of the records and the disparate nature of them, and it is easy for some, hopefully I've not fallen into this, of saying Trove has invalidated their work, because it hasn't.

    That said, if we are asked to find the DOB or DOD of a player who played between 1897 to 1915, I like to double check all the data on the player with the contemporary records, just in case I am given a false assumption to base the research on.
     
  18. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Yes, I agree with Harry & GreyCrow. In fact, the "murky" area of player records extends much beyond 1915 in my opinion, certainly into the '20s anyway.

    The Brooks/Brookes query (St Kilda) is a good example of the problems found in the earliest period
    https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...fficial-records.1089761/page-19#post-43762634
     
  19. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    To add to this , the large spreadsheet the AFL sent me, some players have full names, others have had their first names handwritten in by Stephen R.
    I'm not saying at all this his research is wrong, but it would seem to show as well as recently as say 10-15years ago, even some players first names were unknown.
     
  20. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    In some of the state leagues like the WAFL, it is still the case first names are not known some from games into the 1920s and valiant historians still work to correct the gap, every week.

    Let's not kid ourselves about the difficulty of this project. It's like trying to work out the subject matter of a 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzle from 250 pieces that are left in the box.

    In the not entirely unrelated area of archeology, for instance, up to, from memory, the 1930s, the research was haphazard.

    Two bits of technology expanded it, photos from aircraft which discovered the outlines of long lost towns and recently ground penetrating radar etc which allowed the archeaologists to look beneath the ground with some certainty.

    In the football history world, our technological advance was Trove and its advanced search functions which have allowed us to go furtherin much less time.

    It's still however fraught with great difficulty.
     
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  21. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    Posted this on the "inaccuracy Thread" but it may also belong here:

    "I've got another possible inaccuracy. Barney Carr, the great centreman of St Kilda in the 1920s.

    Wikipedia, AFL tables, AFL forum have his DoB as 27 August 1897, making him 23 when he debuted in 1921 and Wikipedia gives his DOD as 19 January 1971 making him 73 when he died.

    All good except for this article of the Sporting Globe of 5 July 1924 which is a contemporary report of the player

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article185067055

    It says that he was born in Melbourne Ports 24 years before ( ie in 1900 or 1899) gives his playing history at Prahran in some detail and stood out for a year. this would also change his debut year.

    This article also refers to Barney Carr under his photo as "Barney" Carr, indicating that Barney was not his real name though.

    Moreover this article of the Sporting Globe of 4 July 1923
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184809427

    gives his height etc and says he was then 24, which suggests a birthdate of 1900 or 1899.
    That's 2 references by the Sporting Globe in different years suggesting and 1899 or 1900 birthdate.

    My attention to Barney was drawn by this article of the Sporting Globe of 12 November 1932

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189119706

    which refers to candidates for the St Kilda Football Club and refers to C. O. Carr a "brilliant centre" and gives his photo which resembles that of Barney Carr's picture when on VFL duty in Wikipedia.

    The Australian Football biography unhelpfully refers to Barney's real name as being Barney which sadly is too usual.

    At the very least, every recorded AFL stats\biography site might have his DOB wrong but at worst the mistake could extend to his DOD. The Saints website has his details as C. O. "Barney" Carr but gives the same birth date as 27 August 1897

    You would imagine that someone has gone through this exercise before but i is one that is easily resolved by the geneologists amongst us"
     
  22. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    Actually, I think the McCartney investigation needs to be sent to Stephen R separately from the DOB/DOD email I'm collating.
    So once you've come to your conclusion can someone paste those in an email and send it to him please ?
     
  23. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    SIXTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD

    William Patrick "Pat" McNamara - Melb 1934-38, Sth 1939-40 (b:10/1/1912) Orig club: St Pats College; East Melb. Died 1983. Son of Bill (Carlton)

    Arthur "Artie" Leo McSpeerin - Carl 1899, Melb 1903 (b:26/021880) Orig club: Phoenix

    Walter "Wally" Hensen Miller - Fitz 1943-45 (B: 21/10/1917) Orig club Preston Brother of Jim. H (Footscray)

    James "Jim" Reginald Morton - Nth 1927 (B: 25/10/1905) Orig Club: North Melb Laurels

    Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson - Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38 (B: 15/6/1914) Orig Club: Canberra

    William "Bill" Joseph O'Brien - StK 1910-11 (B: 27/9/1887) Orig Club: Williamstown . WW2 Army

    Francis "Frank" Cecil O'Connor - Melb 1947-48 (B: 6/11/1923) Orig club: Prahran WW2 Army

    Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan - StK 1897 (B: 22/1/1878 ) Orig Club: University
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017 at 11:06 AM
  24. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    So O'Brien is supposed to be 14 or 15 when he played in 1910-1911?

    That is a red flag right there.
     
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  25. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    Could someone, if they are happy to do so, please do this as I am happy in my anonymity