Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[35Daicos]

I think J P Ryan might still be alive running a farm at Fish Creek.
Rhett's Tigerland Archive makes reference to his career and life in general.

I wonder why they have him on the list at all. I'm not sure what they're using for a cut-off point, but since he would only be 79 if still alive, that seems rather young to assume the person may be deceased!

There is a J Ryan at Beards Rd, Fish Creek in the White Pages (online).

http://thestar.com.au/blog/fish-creek-legends-inducted/ (June 3rd, 2014)

The event was organised by the Past Players (Creekers), hosted by Cliff McGannon and included speakers Barry Standfield, Jack Charlton, Kelvin Flanders, Ashton Farrell, Andy Kerr, John Ryan, Rob Staley, Margaret Smith, Greg Buckland and Grant Williams.

 

[GreyCrow]

It may be as simple as losing touch with somebody

 

[the croucher]

<snip>
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
<snip>

FR Coulsell may have died in Queensland.
His wife died in Victoria in 1980, and some Ancestry family tree pages show his place of death as Queensland, but show no year.

Have tried a few cemeteries online, but no luck in finding him so far.

 

[rbartlett]

I wonder why they have him on the list at all. I'm not sure what they're using for a cut-off point, but since he would only be 79 if still alive, that seems rather young to assume the person may be deceased!

There is a J Ryan at Beards Rd, Fish Creek in the White Pages (online).

http://thestar.com.au/blog/fish-creek-legends-inducted/ (June 3rd, 2014)

The event was organised by the Past Players (Creekers), hosted by Cliff McGannon and included speakers Barry Standfield, Jack Charlton, Kelvin Flanders, Ashton Farrell, Andy Kerr, John Ryan, Rob Staley, Margaret Smith, Greg Buckland and Grant Williams.

I think the reason he is on the list is I've just checked Richmond's Former Players list and they don't have contact details for him.
I'll make a call to that number and see if it is him.

Regards
Rhett

 

[35Daicos]

It may be as simple as losing touch with somebody

I think the reason he is on the list is I've just checked Richmond's Former Players list and they don't have contact details for him.
I'll make a call to that number and see if it is him.

Regards
Rhett

Yep, fair enough!

 

[the croucher]

FR Coulsell may have died in Queensland.
His wife died in Victoria in 1980, and some Ancestry family tree pages show his place of death as Queensland, but show no year.

Have tried a few cemeteries online, but no luck in finding him so far.

Further checking of Ancestry has revealed a tree that lists DOD for other members of the family between 1987 and 1995.
Frank Bradford Coulsell died in Melbourne - 3 July 1987 (cannot see any notice in The Age issues online)
Charles Alfred Coulsell died in Melbourne - 9 May 1993
Olive Marion Thorpe died in Sydney - 21 May 1995 (see Syd Morn Herald 23 May 1995)
Harry Percival Coulsell in Melbourne - 21 Nov 1995

Perhaps one of my colleagues in this group can find access to appropriate papers either online, or more likely, at a library.

This matter highlights how little 1990s newspaper archive is available online.

 

[GreyCrow]

Further checking of Ancestry has revealed a tree that lists DOD for other members of the family between 1987 and 1995.
Frank Bradford Coulsell died in Melbourne - 3 July 1987 (cannot see any notice in The Age issues online)
Charles Alfred Coulsell died in Melbourne - 9 May 1993
Olive Marion Thorpe died in Sydney - 21 May 1995 (see Syd Morn Herald 23 May 1995)
Harry Percival Coulsell in Melbourne - 21 Nov 1995

Perhaps one of my colleagues in this group can find access to appropriate papers either online, or more likely, at a library.

This matter highlights how little 1990s newspaper archive is available online.

Its the valley of death (pun intended) in genealogy. That period between 1986 and early 2000 where the overlap between newspapers and the internet meet

 

[GreyCrow]

TWENTY-FIRST (and last!) BATCH

Charles William Young - Fitzroy 1937 - dob: 10/10/1918 Orig club North Carlton Died 1969. WW2 Army
.

Had a look around and found an interesting piece that someone with access to electoral rolls might be able to help

Trove search Australia wide leads to a notice in Canberra Times on an inquest into the handling of Dangerous Goods in which 3 people died March 22 1969.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article110445550

Of the 3 , one is Charles William Young aged 51 married West Preston

Going to the Age google site the story is on the front page of the Age 24/3/1969 it names the 2 Victorians (Charles Young) and gives further info of Wallace St Preston as his address. https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19690324&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

The only freckle is his WW2 record says DOB 10/10/17 . I assume the 1918 is taken from the 1969 assumed death? October 1917 does give an age of 51 in March 1969

 

[rbartlett]

No answer from J Ryan phone number
So I'll send off a handwritten letter tonight.

 

[35Daicos]

Had a look around and found an interesting piece that someone with access to electoral rolls might be able to help

Trove search Australia wide leads to a notice in Canberra Times on an inquest into the handling of Dangerous Goods in which 3 people died March 22 1969.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article110445550

Of the 3 , one is Charles William Young aged 51 married West Preston

Going to the Age google site the story is on the front page of the Age 24/3/1969 it names the 2 Victorians (Charles Young) and gives further info of Wallace St Preston as his address. https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19690324&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

The only freckle is his WW2 record says DOB 10/10/17 . I assume the 1918 is taken from the 1969 assumed death? October 1917 does give an age of 51 in March 1969

The story in The Age and another in The Canberra Times give his age as 35, which would rule the footballer out, of course:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136952658

But the widow (of the accident victim) gets a mention in a story from earlier this year. She was born in 1917, and it's rather likely that she'd have married someone of about the same age, rather than someone born around 1934:- https://www.thesenior.com.au/entertainment/myer-to-hold-exhibition-of-100-iconic-products/

TELEVISION has always been a big part of Carmel Young's life. In her later years, it has also been her companion.

In her room at a Reservoir nursing home, Mrs Young, who turned 100 last month ...

Tragically, it was through television that Mrs Young learned Charlie was killed in an industrial accident on March 22, 1969.

Mr Young, a driver for CIG, had been aboard a gas tanker that was loading a ship at Port Welshpool, in Gippsland, when it exploded, killing himself and two others and injuring 23 men.

 

[the croucher]

The story in The Age and another in The Canberra Times give his age as 35, which would rule the footballer out, of course:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136952658

But the widow (of the accident victim) gets a mention in a story from earlier this year. She was born in 1917, and it's rather likely that she'd have married someone of about the same age, rather than someone born around 1934:- https://www.thesenior.com.au/entertainment/myer-to-hold-exhibition-of-100-iconic-products/

TELEVISION has always been a big part of Carmel Young's life. In her later years, it has also been her companion.

In her room at a Reservoir nursing home, Mrs Young, who turned 100 last month ...

Tragically, it was through television that Mrs Young learned Charlie was killed in an industrial accident on March 22, 1969.

Mr Young, a driver for CIG, had been aboard a gas tanker that was loading a ship at Port Welshpool, in Gippsland, when it exploded, killing himself and two others and injuring 23 men.

The 1968 electoral roll for seat of Scullin, subdivision of Preston includes
Charles William Young, 49 Wallace St, [occupation] driver
Lucy Carmel Young, 49 Wallace St, [occupation] tailoress

 

[GreyCrow]

The story in The Age and another in The Canberra Times give his age as 35, which would rule the footballer out, of course:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136952658

But the widow (of the accident victim) gets a mention in a story from earlier this year. She was born in 1917, and it's rather likely that she'd have married someone of about the same age, rather than someone born around 1934:- https://www.thesenior.com.au/entertainment/myer-to-hold-exhibition-of-100-iconic-products/

TELEVISION has always been a big part of Carmel Young's life. In her later years, it has also been her companion.

In her room at a Reservoir nursing home, Mrs Young, who turned 100 last month ...

Tragically, it was through television that Mrs Young learned Charlie was killed in an industrial accident on March 22, 1969.

Mr Young, a driver for CIG, had been aboard a gas tanker that was loading a ship at Port Welshpool, in Gippsland, when it exploded, killing himself and two others and injuring 23 men.

Maybe this is the issue then that the AFL cant resolve.

Odd that the Canberra Inquest story said 51. It certainly fits the marriage better. Death notices in the above 24/3 Age shed no great light apart from no children mentioned

Strange

 

[GreyCrow]

The 1968 electoral roll for seat of Scullin, subdivision of Preston includes
Charles William Young, 49 Wallace St, [occupation] driver
Lucy Carmel Young, 49 Wallace St, [occupation] tailoress

He was in Transport in the army as well

 

[rbartlett]

The story in The Age and another in The Canberra Times give his age as 35, which would rule the footballer out, of course:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136952658

So am I summarising this right...
Are we suggesting that Carmel Young is possibly the widow of Fitzroy's Charles William Young.
If so, I can send that as a lead to Stephen R for him to followup with Reservoir Nursing Home.

Rhett

 

[GreyCrow]

So am I summarising this right...
Are we suggesting that Carmel Young is possibly the widow of Fitzroy's Charles William Young.
If so, I can send that as a lead to Stephen R for him to followup with Reservoir Nursing Home.

Rhett

I would ask her the question if it was me

 

[rbartlett]

I would ask her the question if it was me

Alright, that lead has been sent to Stephen R

 

[the croucher]

Had a look around and found an interesting piece that someone with access to electoral rolls might be able to help

Trove search Australia wide leads to a notice in Canberra Times on an inquest into the handling of Dangerous Goods in which 3 people died March 22 1969.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article110445550

Of the 3 , one is Charles William Young aged 51 married West Preston

Going to the Age google site the story is on the front page of the Age 24/3/1969 it names the 2 Victorians (Charles Young) and gives further info of Wallace St Preston as his address. https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19690324&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

The only freckle is his WW2 record says DOB 10/10/17 . I assume the 1918 is taken from the 1969 assumed death? October 1917 does give an age of 51 in March 1969

[Maybe I'm just having one of those days, but perhaps could others check this out...]
Ignore that - all sorted

Charles William Young's death is not officially registered [#9282] in Victoria until 1971 !
Inquest delay.

 

[GreyCrow]

Maybe I'm just having one of those days, but perhaps could others check this out...

I cannot find any ref to death of a Charles William Young in 1969 in the Vic BDMs !
Nor can I find any entry for him at the Fawkner (Melb Gen) cemetery,
despite the funeral notice stating that would be the site of his burial.

Very puzzling.

I just had a thought. Is it a Marine Death?

Nothing , most Young are pre-1900. I wonder if there is anything to do with the Port that classifies it as a Canberra death? I am baffled

 

[GreyCrow]

Found it

Record information
EventDeath

Event registration number9282

Registration year1971

Personal information
Family nameYOUNG

Given namesCharles William

SexMale

Father's nameYOUNG Charles

Mother's nameCharlotte (Hempsel)

Place of birthMelbourne

Place of deathPort Welshpool

Age51

I assume the Inquest held up any release?

 

[the croucher]

I just had a thought. Is it a Marine Death?

Nothing , most Young are pre-1900. I wonder if there is anything to do with the Port that classifies it as a Canberra death? I am baffled

Thanks for checking it out so promptly. I too had wondered about Marine Deaths but found no ref.

Then I looked back at the Canberra Times story to see if there was another clue and realised the date of publication
was late December 1970 !! Re-checked the Vic BDMs for 1971 entries and there he was.

 

[35Daicos]

Looks pretty likely that the Fitzroy footballer was in the Army. In 1939 C Young went from Fitzroy to Coburg:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205991807

Then it looks like he went back in 1941: C W Young from Coburg to Fitzroy:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8167772

C. Young (Coburg footballer) was in Army camp in 1942:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75042611 (26 June 1942)

 

[the croucher]

re: C W Young

This project just gets weirder and weirder.

I've just pinged the digitised collections search engine at the State Library of Victoria.
For some years now the AFL Record has carried [often/almost always on page 70 ?] the regular little section titled Mystery Men where Col Hutchinson asks for relatives of former players to get in touch with the AFL and provide more information about the player/players
named that week.

The issue of Rnd 20 in 2014 names Charlie Young as one of the players where more info was being sought, see page 70 in
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/294176
"He passed away in 1969."

Why the hell have we been chasing our tails trying to solve "mysteries" like this when they already knew his year of death !!

 

[35Daicos]

re: C W Young

This project just gets weirder and weirder.

I've just pinged the digitised collections search engine at the State Library of Victoria.
For some years now the AFL Record has carried [often/almost always on page 70 ?] the regular little section titled Mystery Men where Col Hutchinson asks for relatives of former players to get in touch with the AFL and provide more information about the player/players
named that week.

The issue of Rnd 20 in 2014 names Charlie Young as one of the players where more info was being sought, see page 70 in
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/294176
"He passed away in 1969."

Why the hell have we been chasing our tails trying to solve "mysteries" like this when they already knew his year of death !!

Couldn't you have looked that up three hours ago?!!! Better still, couldn't that vital piece of information been included with the list of names that was provided in the first place?!

 

[GreyCrow]

Couldn't you have looked that up three hours ago?!!! Better still, couldn't that vital piece of information been included with the list of names that was provided in the first place?!

It was. Its why I bolded it in my post of today. I assumed because it was in italics it came from SR and there may have been doubt

 

[35Daicos]

It was. Its why I bolded it in my post of today. I assumed because it was in italics it came from SR and there may have been doubt

Oops! So it was!! That seems like such a long time ago when you posted that. I just checked the list on the first page of the thread (recently edited) and didn't see it mentioned there, so assumed that was how it came down the line in the first place!

Anyway, I think this one's pretty much wrapped up then, isn't it?!