Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[GreyCrow]

Oops! So it was!! That seems like such a long time ago when you posted that. I just checked the list on the first page of the thread (recently edited) and didn't see it mentioned there, so assumed that was how it came down the line in the first place!

Anyway, I think this one's pretty much wrapped up then, isn't it?!

I shall remove it pending confirmation from Rhett but I would be happy to call it solved for 22/3/1969

 

[the croucher]

Oops! So it was!! That seems like such a long time ago when you posted that. I just checked the list on the first page of the thread (recently edited) and didn't see it mentioned there, so assumed that was how it came down the line in the first place!

Anyway, I think this one's pretty much wrapped up then, isn't it?!

OH ! Sorry to all, and AFL personnel, for flying off the handle about that.
Should have checked the post when that batch was originally put up by Rhett.

Anyway, yes, think we've found exact date of death now...

Mind you the date of birth needs to be confirmed - looks like CW Young should be listed as 10/10/1917 not 1918

 

[35Daicos]

I shall remove it pending confirmation from Rhett but I would be happy to call it solved for 22/3/1969

It does seem odd the AFL haven't got this one (DOD) solved. Perhaps (as you may have implied?) they only saw the newspaper articles that had him aged 35, not the one with him being 51.

 

[rbartlett]

I've sent all the info (several posts) off to Stephen R, so I'll advise once I hear back.
The 1969 death date was referenced back in the original post, but with so many on the list, its understandable it got missed/dropped off along the way.
No sweat guys. Onwards and upwards.

 

[ThePope]

I've got a couple of leads, but no answers yet for
93 Albert Tasman Roberts b:18/8/1901 Fitz 1928
and
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38

Roberts played for Yarraville after Fitzroy but fractured his skull in a car accident in 1930, and never played again. Condition was listed as serious or critical. Address of Napier St Footscray in this article. Can't see any followup articles on his condition or any death/funeral notices if it was fatal.

Ryan, who was the only player to win a game for Collingwood with a kick after the siren until Tarrant did it in 2003, later played for Brunswick (ping Michael Riley, he isn't listed in the VFAProject under Brunswick, nor in the VFL crossover list), and just because A.J, Alan, Allan and Ginger isn't enough to search for, was also known as Mick! But no info of where he went post his year at Brunswick.

Also, I found this list of VFA to VFL transfers that might be useful for some of these searches:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202292890

 

[GreyCrow]

I've got a couple of leads, but no answers yet for
93 Albert Tasman Roberts b:18/8/1901 Fitz 1928


Roberts played for Yarraville after Fitzroy but fractured his skull in a car accident in 1930, and never played again. Condition was listed as serious or critical. Address of Napier St Footscray in this article. Can't see any followup articles on his condition or any death/funeral notices if it was fatal.

His fathers notice says he was deceased before his father, yet I havent been able to find anything

 

[rbartlett]

Stephen R reply regarding Charles William Young

"
It looks to me that, weighing everything up, this is definitely the right chap.

As you know, last time around, we confirmed by Vic Births that 10-10-18 is correct -

not 10-10-17 (despite him saying that on his military record), and despite the article

saying he's 51 - we just have to accept he's 50, I suppose.

Where the circumstances of the death are mentioned, "at Port Welshpool, Gippsland" -

I don't know, despite the admittedly unusual nature of his death, why he still just

wouldn't be in Vic Deaths, say the 1921-85 index; I'm just saying that from memory -

that the 10-10-18 guy, from memory, didn't have a 'match', for parents, in the

Deaths index. I wonder why?

I can't remember why we 'knew' he'd died in '69 - maybe from the Fitzroy Annual

Report, something like that? So, presumably, it had filtered thru to Fitzroy."

 

[35Daicos]

I've got a couple of leads, but no answers yet for
93 Albert Tasman Roberts b:18/8/1901 Fitz 1928
and
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38

Roberts played for Yarraville after Fitzroy but fractured his skull in a car accident in 1930, and never played again. Condition was listed as serious or critical. Address of Napier St Footscray in this article. Can't see any followup articles on his condition or any death/funeral notices if it was fatal.

Ryan, who was the only player to win a game for Collingwood with a kick after the siren until Tarrant did it in 2003, later played for Brunswick (ping Michael Riley, he isn't listed in the VFAProject under Brunswick, nor in the VFL crossover list), and just because A.J, Alan, Allan and Ginger isn't enough to search for, was also known as Mick! But no info of where he went post his year at Brunswick.

Also, I found this list of VFA to VFL transfers that might be useful for some of these searches:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202292890

This suggests Roberts may have pulled through after that accident:- Roberts, who was with him at the time and was more seriously injured, is progressing favorably, but will be unable to play again this year. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202463209 (6 Aug 1930)

Edit: T. ROBERTS RECOMMENCES FOOTBALL.:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205850003 (13 May 1931)

The Ryan (Collingwood) story is a good one, but he did only manage to draw that game with his kick after the siren!

 

[ThePope]

Stepping back to the beginning. If we assume that his name was Tasman (his commonly used name, and not just a nickname) and he was born in Vic, then this is likely to be his birth record:

1901 15715 M Roberts, Albert Tasman; Albert George; Lyons May; Albert Park ​

Now the Albert George helps explain why he was known as Tas to avoid confusion with Dad. There is a marriage, the same year. (shotgun!)

1901 4056 Roberts Albert George Lyons May Melbourne South ​

But the death notice found by GreyCrow, I assume is this one from 3 Aug 1953

ROBERTS.— On August 1 (suddenly), Albert George, loved husband of Ethel May. of 338 Station St Chelsea and loving father of Tas (deceased, late 2nd AIF). late of Hamilton​

The Funeral notice has the burial at Coburg Cemetery, and the GMCT deceased search has

ROBERTS Albert George Coburg Pine Ridge Cemetery BAPTIST CO-BAP*P***517 Interment 04/08/1953 Show Map
ROBERTS Ethel May Coburg Pine Ridge Cemetery BAPTIST CO-BAP*P***517 Interment 14/12/1964 Show Map​

Those paying close attention, would note that the mum was May Lyons, but is now Ethel May. I think Albert George remarried Ethel May in 1915. But I can't find a death notice for May Roberts, so maybe a divorce? Bingo!

The story of a wife who would not settle down was told by Albert George Roberts, 32 years of age, of Drummond street, Carlton, Plummer, who asked for a divorce from May Roberts, 30 years of age, on the ground of desertion. A decree nisi was granted, petitioner being given the custody of the only child.​

Now back to Tas. Deceased in 1953, but also in the 2nd AIF. Nope. Can't find him on nominal rolls or national archives. Tried via DOB, just Tasman, just Albert, no-one seems to match.

Found him.

And we have another VFL/VFA WW2 death.

He enlisted under his Mum's maiden surname and dropped the Tasman - Albert Lyons. Sliced 4 years off his DOB (18 Aug 1901 is the AFL DOB, 17 Aug 1905 when enlisted) to be under the cutoff age of 35. Next of Kin is Albert Roberts, a letter in his records from Ethel.

Died 9 April 1942 of illness as a POW in Rabaul, PNG.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6226910

 

[GreyCrow]

Brilliant stuff

 

[the croucher]

Brilliant stuff

Hear, hear !

Well done, Pope.

 

[rbartlett]

I shall remove it pending confirmation from Rhett but I would be happy to call it solved for 22/3/1969

Stephen R is happy to call it solved (see earlier post). Remove it from the list. Cheers.

 

[rbartlett]

Found him.

And we have another VFL/VFA WW2 death.


View attachment 444466

I'll send a link of this post to Stephen R for him to look over
Cheers

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Nice work Pope, comprehensive.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[rbartlett]

Found him.

And we have another VFL/VFA WW2 death.

He enlisted under his Mum's maiden surname and dropped the Tasman - Albert Lyons. Sliced 4 years off his DOB (18 Aug 1901 is the AFL DOB, 17 Aug 1905 when enlisted) to be under the cutoff age of 35. Next of Kin is Albert Roberts, a letter in his records from Ethel.

Died 9 April 1942 of illness as a POW in Rabaul, PNG.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6226910

View attachment 444466

Stephen R accepts the Tasman data above/ and that he is a WW2 deceased.
So take him off our list as well GreyCrow

 

[Gibbsy]

Stepping back to the beginning. If we assume that his name was Tasman (his commonly used name, and not just a nickname) and he was born in Vic, then this is likely to be his birth record:

1901 15715 M Roberts, Albert Tasman; Albert George; Lyons May; Albert Park ​

Now the Albert George helps explain why he was known as Tas to avoid confusion with Dad. There is a marriage, the same year. (shotgun!)

1901 4056 Roberts Albert George Lyons May Melbourne South ​

But the death notice found by GreyCrow, I assume is this one from 3 Aug 1953

ROBERTS.— On August 1 (suddenly), Albert George, loved husband of Ethel May. of 338 Station St Chelsea and loving father of Tas (deceased, late 2nd AIF). late of Hamilton​

The Funeral notice has the burial at Coburg Cemetery, and the GMCT deceased search has

ROBERTS Albert George Coburg Pine Ridge Cemetery BAPTIST CO-BAP*P***517 Interment 04/08/1953 Show Map
ROBERTS Ethel May Coburg Pine Ridge Cemetery BAPTIST CO-BAP*P***517 Interment 14/12/1964 Show Map​

Those paying close attention, would note that the mum was May Lyons, but is now Ethel May. I think Albert George remarried Ethel May in 1915. But I can't find a death notice for May Roberts, so maybe a divorce? Bingo!

The story of a wife who would not settle down was told by Albert George Roberts, 32 years of age, of Drummond street, Carlton, Plummer, who asked for a divorce from May Roberts, 30 years of age, on the ground of desertion. A decree nisi was granted, petitioner being given the custody of the only child.​

Now back to Tas. Deceased in 1953, but also in the 2nd AIF. Nope. Can't find him on nominal rolls or national archives. Tried via DOB, just Tasman, just Albert, no-one seems to match.

Found him.

And we have another VFL/VFA WW2 death.

He enlisted under his Mum's maiden surname and dropped the Tasman - Albert Lyons. Sliced 4 years off his DOB (18 Aug 1901 is the AFL DOB, 17 Aug 1905 when enlisted) to be under the cutoff age of 35. Next of Kin is Albert Roberts, a letter in his records from Ethel.

Died 9 April 1942 of illness as a POW in Rabaul, PNG.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6226910

View attachment 444466

Amazing. It's saddening and also in a way heartening that we can still uncover these VFL/VFA war deaths so many decades after the fact. It surely would at least give some solace to the family knowing he is recognised.

Btw Pope, your work on Wiki has been excellent for so long now so it's nice to see you lending your expertise to BF.

 

[ThePope]

Thanks.
In regards to these last remaining few, and Roberts specifically, I think that as an only child, once his parents died, he was easily forgotten - there simply isn't any family around anymore from some branches. No one left to carry on his memory. The name changes just added an extra layer of complexity in this case.

I'm also ashamed to say that I had no idea about what happened in Rabaul, or how many Aussies died there, or in the POW ship that the Yanks sank.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks.
In regards to these last remaining few, and Roberts specifically, I think that as an only child, once his parents died, he was easily forgotten - there simply isn't any family around anymore from some branches. No one left to carry on his memory. The name changes just added an extra layer of complexity in this case.

I'm also ashamed to say that I had no idea about what happened in Rabaul, or how many Aussies died there, or in the POW ship that the Yanks sank.

I think this is valid for a few

ie George Prismall looks to be the only child of Gladys Prismall 1893-1980 who doesnt marry and has no fathers name on the BC. Apparently Gladys C(atherine) is in the Templestowe Cemetery

 

[ThePope]

I think this is valid for a few

ie George Prismall looks to be the only child of Gladys Prismall 1893-1980 who doesnt marry and has no fathers name on the BC. Apparently Gladys C(atherine) is in the Templestowe Cemetery

Coincidentially, I actually chose Prismall from the list to investigate last night. I think he did have a sister, Phyllis Catherine, also no father listed.

year; reg ; surname, first names; father ;mother; birth place
1915; 1860 ; Prismall, George Henry ; ;Prismall, Gladys ;Carlton
1918; 25281; Prismall, Phyllis Catherine; ;Prismall, Gladys Catherine; Bwk E ​

She died a few years ago, but her cremation remains were interred alongside her mum at Templestowe only a few months ago (http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx)

Surname Given Names Date of Birth Date of Death Cemetery Section Location Service Type Service Date​

PRISMALL Gladys Fawkner Memorial Park Cremation 20/08/1980
PRISMALL Phyllis Catherine 15/11/1918 20/05/2014 Lilydale Memorial Park Cremation 26/05/2014
PRISMALL Gladys C Templestowe Cemetery MEMORIAL COURT 1 I/S EAST TE-MC1_I_E*C***30 Interment of C.R.
PRISMALL Phyllis Catherine 15/11/1918 20/05/2014 Templestowe Cemetery MEMORIAL COURT 1 I/S EAST TE-MC1_I_E*D***30 Interment of C.R. 04/08/2017 ​

So, unless there were newspaper notices for either the mum or sister that mention the brother, this might also be a (pun unintended) dead end. Maybe Lilydale or Templestowe might have contact details for next of kin?

The most likely answer for George is that he stayed in the UK after being a merchant sailor during the war (see #360). But given that his mum and sister lived till they were 86 and 95, he may have also lived a long life. There are a bunch of messages from a "Carol Dale" on the genealogy website forums searching the same family, but nothing yet.

I wonder if he's any relation to Brent Prismall?

 

[Harry Hook]

Amazing. It's saddening and also in a way heartening that we can still uncover these VFL/VFA war deaths so many decades after the fact. It surely would at least give some solace to the family knowing he is recognised.

Btw Pope, your work on Wiki has been excellent for so long now so it's nice to see you lending your expertise to BF.

It's not uncommon still and if you went through Trove with a fine tooth comb, a few more would appear.

It is logical, if nothing else. Young fit men play football with their teams and at the time were highly patriotic ( I expect we would be too if we were attacked). Who the army need - young fit men or old fit men.

Mark my words, there will be more, and not just a few.

 

[rbartlett]

If I can slightly segue off this thread.
There are now only 2 deceased VFL premiership players/familes for Richmond we have yet to track down. (With thank to WHL we have nearly crossed them all off).
We are trying to track down to ensure posthumous life memberships can be presented to them.

Any suggestions/thoughts are most welcome

Royston Duggan Quinn (18 June 1919 – 25 May 2001)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Quinn
Looks like he had a daughter - Roslyn Kathleen Quinn (b1954)
But the trail stops there.
Royston's father was William "Billy" Quinn - a treasurer for Richmond and a Melbourne player. (He was born 27 July 1890 - 1 November 1969 ) http://demonwiki.org/Billy+Quinn

John Yates “Jack” Anderson (b; 29 Oct 1908 - 25 May 1958)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Anderson_(footballer,_born_1908) (also played with North)
Looks like he died on the job as a fireman http://www.mfb.vic.gov.au/About-Us/Our-History/Honour-Roll.html
His son was a 3DB announcer. I spoke to Mal Waldron who remembers him but doesn't have any family contact.
According to WHL, At Jack's death notice it lists
Elsie (wife)
John (son) (the 3DB announcer, is deceased)
Ian (son)
Lindsay
David (deceased)
, as well, Brother of Colin, and Ron.
and eldest son of Margaret and the late Frank Anderson of Traralgon.

 

[GreyCrow]

If I can slightly segue off this thread.
There are now only 2 deceased VFL premiership players for Richmond we have yet to track down. (With thank to WHL we have nearly crossed them all off).
We are trying to track down to ensure posthumous life memberships can be presented to them.

Any suggestions/thoughts are most welcome

Royston Duggan Quinn (18 June 1919 – 25 May 2001)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Quinn
Looks like he had a daughter - Roslyn Kathleen Quinn (b1954)
But the trail stops there.
.

Looks like Ros married a Peter , maybe mid 70s to early 80s and children born after

From Roystons HS tribute
QUINN. - Royston (Roy), passed away May 25, 2001. Beloved husband of Eve (dec. ). Loving father of Ros and father- in-law of Peter. Loved Pop to Trent and Corey. Treasured memories of you are ours to keep

 

[Oliver G]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering if there is a complete list of confirmed changes since Oct 1st? I have been out of the loop since then and would like to update the AustralianFootball database with the confirmed changes since then.

Absolutely fine if there isn't one as i'll just go through each page, but it would be a big help.

Cheers,

Oliver

 

[GreyCrow]

Page 1 or page 18 should be where something is

 

[rbartlett]

Looks like Ros married a Peter , maybe mid 70s to early 80s and children born after

From Roystons HS tribute
QUINN. - Royston (Roy), passed away May 25, 2001. Beloved husband of Eve (dec. ). Loving father of Ros and father- in-law of Peter. Loved Pop to Trent and Corey. Treasured memories of you are ours to keep

Thanks GreyCrow
I'll try and seek out what Ros and Peter's surname is now , and that will lead me to calling alot of people in the phone book.