Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[Gibbsy]

Harry is definitely still going!: Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
He's Collingwood's oldest living player. He is actually Henry Charles Paynter.

This is a wonderful listen with Harry being interviewed earlier this month on his life story:

Conversations with Cornesy - Harry Paynter - Conversations with Cornesy

Collingwood’s oldest living player Harry Paynter joins Graham Cornes.

omny.fm

He's extremely sharp for 96! He's also an Adelaide Crows supporter

 

[35Daicos]

This is a wonderful listen with Harry being interviewed earlier this month on his life story:

Conversations with Cornesy - Harry Paynter - Conversations with Cornesy

Collingwood’s oldest living player Harry Paynter joins Graham Cornes.

omny.fm

He's extremely sharp for 96! He's also an Adelaide Crows supporter

Thanks a lot for that! I'll certainly listen to it, and pass it on to a couple of folks at Collingwood. It was only a few months back we concluded we had the wrong DOB for him, and then knew for sure he was now our oldest living ex-player (after tracking him down at a nursing home in Adelaide).

 

[Bandit55]

South's Frank (Francis William) Primmer (born 16 January 1933) died on 23 October 2005 according to the Ryerson Index and Find a Grave:



Francis William Primmer (1933-2005) - Find a...

Note: AF has his death recorded.

Summary

Update Frank Primmer's full name to Francis William Primmer and record his DoD as 23 October 2005 (if the above information is sufficient).

 

[GreyCrow]

Note the addition of a middle initial too, E, which didn't seem to be on his NSW birth record. Can't seem to find a marriage record for this either, but I haven't looked very hard.

Without knowing what others have found I assume they looked at these 2 deaths in 1917. One which was a death in hospital

The notice says Mother and sisters without mentioning Herbert who would have been very much alive

I also easily dismiss these due to the parentage


GREEN ALBERT E 4865/1917
JOHN SARAH A
SYDNEY

GREEN ALBERT E 7261/1917
RICHARD MARY A
BEGA

 

[GreyCrow]

According to Victor Not the Author Hugo Alby went West and was alive in 1929

BOYS OF YESTERDAY—AND OTHERS. - Referee (Sydney, NSW : 1886 - 1939) - 23 Jan 1929

Mr. Victor Hugo, the old South Australian cricketer, writes from Adelaide on a multitude of matters, and, incidentally, most interestingly about the players who ...

nla.gov.au

Further to this WA story is this from Broken Hill

FOOTBALLER DISAPPEARS. - OLD NORWOOD PLAYER SOUGHT BY RELATIVES. - Barrier Miner (Broken Hill, NSW : 1888 - 1954) - 21 Feb 1915

Mentions family plus a mysterious WA woman who wrote to him regularly

 

[Gibbsy]

Found the article about "inside information"; this is obviously what they were referring to. Presumed dead in 1922.

SPORTSMAN'S NOTE BOOK - WHAT'S IN A NAME? - The Sun (Sydney, NSW : 1910 - 1954) - 22 Jul 1922

The christening of a racehorse is just as momentous to some owners as the christening of a human being. They search up the animal's pedigree, ...

nla.gov.au

 

[GreyCrow]

I present this with no expectation of success but would like to at least put it in the general conversation

My starting point was his mothers new name. Most people dont disappear unless they walk into the bush so the next step is a change of name - and the one most frequently turned to is the mothers maiden name or new married name.

So what do we find around the time of his disappearance from hospital

According to the info above March 1912 seems be the last point of contact and even less with February 28 being the last physical sighting

Anyway enough

Looking firstly at the NSW BDM and deaths in 1912 we see 2 that jump out with one especially interesting


HOSKING P 16824/1912
34 TO 4O YRS MURWILLUMBA

MURWILLUMBAH


With a birth of 1874 this looks really really good for Albert

There is no notice ( that I can see ) for this death but there is for this one in September which through process of elimination we have

PERSONAL. - Northern Star (Lismore, NSW : 1876 - 1954) - 6 Sep 1912

Mrs. H. F. Ward, of Mosman, is in town staying at the Hotel Ryan. Mrs. E. T. Robinson, of the Royal Hotel, Kempsey, will arrive in Lismore ...

nla.gov.au

Birth

HOSKING HERBERT A 14567/1894
JOHN H MINNIE M
GRAFTON

Death
HOSKING HERBERT A 9833/1912
JOHN H MINNIE M
BYRON BAY

There is no way he would be mistaken for someone 20 years older

Ironically Herbert was born in Murwillimbah which caused some issue but the notice says Bangalow which google tells me is 15 minutes from Byron Bay

I think we need a Police Gazette or similar to look at this

( I am out for the evening so will leave this here)

Edit: Added. Why P Hosking? Maybe he borrowed clothing from his stepfathers wardrobe and police used the name tag as an identifier

 

[Bandit55]

Table update with our most recent new finds. I also added Ray Hutchins and Ernie Collihole to the missing DOD list.

Missing dates of death for V/AFL footballers as at 28 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	[?] [?] 1902	StK 1927	⬥ Thought by AFL to be Henry John Brown, DOB 16 Oct 1903 (unlikely) ⬥ Played for Caulfield and Hawksburn prior to StK ⬥ H. Brown transferred StK > Camberwell ⬥ H. F. Brown (same guy?) went C'well > Coll. District ⬥ Interment date is 17 Mar 1975; DOD possibly 13 Mar 1975 ⬥ This puts DOB some time between 13 Mar and 31 Dec 1902 ⬥ Both the DOB and DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificates
Otto Buck	Samuel Otto John Buck	15 Nov 1876	Carl 1897	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Mildura, 1917 (electoral roll) ⬥ Extensive notes on Ancestry here but no DOD ⬥ Did not die in 1946 as some trees claim (different Samuel Buck)
Jack Cliff	Jack Louis Cliff	23 May 1919	StK 1940–42	⬥ Played for West Broken Hill prior to StK ⬥ AFL/SR says: became a 'gangster', killed in unmarked grave ⬥ Last confirmed existence in Elwood, 1980 (electoral roll)
Ernie Collihole	Ernest James Collihole	26 Dec 1930	SM 1950–51	⬥ DOD listed on Find a Grave of 14 Sep 1985; need confirmation
Frank Corby	Eugene Francis Corby	24 Dec 1924	Coll 1948	⬥ Lawrence William Corby was Frank's brother, not a pseudonym ⬥ Previous Coll FC contact with family did not reveal DOD
Fred Coulsell	Frederick Rowland Coulsell	17 Dec 1905	NM 1927 Ess 1931	⬥ Ancestry tree shows DOD of 16 Jun 1997 at Beenleigh, QLD ⬥ DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificate
Bobby Craig	Robert Ritchie Craig	29 Mar 1882	Melb 1902	⬥ Born in Williamstown (Aus), moved to Scotland by 1901 (census) ⬥ Departed Liverpool for Argentina in 1913, married in Scotland in 1914 ⬥ Brother Andrew buried in Dromana (Aus) in 1982
Ray Hutchins	Raymond Ferris Hutchins	23 Mar 1929	Melb 1950–51	⬥ Obituary post from Melbourne FC on 3 Feb 2021 mentions his passing but without an exact date
Charlie Jenkins	William Charles Jenkins	21 Aug 1874	Fitz 1898	⬥ Thought by AFL to be Charles Herbert Jenkins, DOB 17 Jun 1878, cousin of Ern Jenkins (unlikely) ⬥ Jenkins often called himself Charles William instead of William Charles ⬥ He transferred to Fitzroy in 1894 ⬥ Ancestry tree shows DOD of 1 Jun 1956 ⬥ DOD can be confirmed by purchasing certificate
Edmund Kirwin	Edmund Kirwin	31 Mar 1876	StK 1898	⬥ Kirwin's brother Maurice died in 1960 ⬥ Kirwin was an established cricketer for St Kilda CC; CricketArchive records list an Edward Kirwan (diff spelling both names), DOB 1872, DOD 20 Feb 1929 ⬥ Michael Kirwen (again, diff spelling) listed as brother of Maurice, died in 1952, but no mention of Edmund, despite the fact they were also brothers
Tom Lee	Thomas Francis Lee	11 Dec 1874	Coll 1897–98	⬥ Lee's mother Elizabeth appears to have died on the day of his birth ⬥ There are no death notices for any of his relatives that have died ⬥ Ancestry tress and death notices suggest he died before 1915, possibly before 1904
George Lockwood	George Lockwood	6 Dec 1872	Geel 1899–1901 Coll 1902–04	⬥ AFL/SR says: possible death year of 1946(unlikely) ⬥ A George Hislop Lockwood died overseas in war in 1917 (inconclusive) ⬥ Lockwood lived until at least 1944 according to death notice of relative ⬥ Lockwood's twin Teddy died in 1953 ⬥ The Lockwood lineage looks as so
Joe Marchant	[?]	[?] c. 1884	StK 1904	⬥ Thought by AFL to be John Albert Marchant, DOB 11 Sep 1884 in NSW (unlikely) ⬥ No transfer details; "The Encyclopedia" lists him as Joseph Marchant
Jack McKenzie	John James McKenzie	19 Aug 1908	Ess 1929	⬥ Son of John Joseph 'Dookie' McKenzie (1881–1946) ⬥ Married Lorna Davis Ireland in 1933, divorced in 1939 ⬥ Listed as deceased in father Dookie's death notice, so McKenzie's death is presumed between Jul 1939 and Mar 1946
Alf Neeson	Alfred Carl Frank Neeson (later: Alfred Milton Briggs)	15 Jun 1914	Fitz 1935–36 Haw 1936–38	⬥ DOB thought in early research to be 5 June 1914 due to war records (proven false via Vic BDM) ⬥ Joined Army in early 1935 and discharged later that year ⬥ Was arrested in 1939 for stealing a car, changed his name at some point around this time to Alfred Briggs ⬥ Married Ivy McRae/Seale in 1940 as Alfred M. Briggs ⬥ Potentially interchanging use of Briggs/Neeson names, was in WA goldfields region in late 1940s ⬥ Former wife Ivy died in 1974 ⬥ Further evidence suggesting Alf swapped between Briggs & Neeson throughout his life ⬥ AFL/SR says: suggest Alf used Alfred Milton Briggs as a full name; Alfred and Ivy on Kalgoorlie electoral roll in 1949 ⬥ Further SR research; no Briggs in Kalgoorlie cemetery ⬥ Alma Seale (sister of Ivy Briggs)'s daughter Winifred moved to Frankston before 1980 ⬥ Winifred contacted Rhett in Nov 2017 but only vague memories of Alf ⬥ SR: No response from New Norcia Monastery (lead from Winifred) ⬥ Genealogist with history of researching Alf says he married at least once, possibly twice more after Ivy, and Milton Kenneth Briggs is possibly an adopted son
Mick O'Hagan	Michael Joseph O'Hagan	22 Jan 1878	StK 1897	⬥ Michael Joseph O'Hagan studied pharmacy at Melb Uni in 1895; mentioned in court case in 1908 as being from Nathalia ⬥ His sister, Mary Terese, died in 1970 aged 90; death notice lists Mick as deceased ⬥ Some questioning over whether Michael Joseph is our man given lack of quality of early St Kilda player records ⬥ Given contemporaries and schooling, confident that he is the right man
George Prismall	George Henry Prismall	10 Mar 1915	Ess 1935	⬥ Served in British Merchant Navy during WWII ⬥ Mother was Gladys Prismall (1893–1980), who didn't marry ⬥ His sister, Phyllis Catherine, died in 2014 ⬥ Last existence, living in Earls Court (Aussie hotspot) circa 1947–48
Sam Reid	Samuel Alexander Reid	17 Jun 1872	Carl 1897	⬥ Parents were likely James Reid and Ann Eliza Reid (nee Ralston) ⬥ Probably not the Samuel Reid that died in 1949 and may have lived in Japan (different parents to those listed on Blueseum)
Arch Robinson	Archibald Robinson	9 Jul 1890	Rich 1911	⬥ Served in AIF in WWI; Army records suggest born in 1888, not 1890 ⬥ Divorced Edith Robinson Whitehead in 1921 ⬥ Was often misnamed as Robertson
Ray Ross	Raymond Paul Ross	2 May 1900	Ess 1921	⬥ Ross is not Rich/StK player Raymond Roberts Ross from similar era ⬥ Potential that Raymond Paul Ross changed his name to Raymond Paul Elliott and died in 1980 (same mother) ⬥ More ruling out of other people (aka Raymond Roberts Ross) ⬥ Permit for an R. Ross going from Ess > NM in Rd 4, 1922 ⬥ Raymond Paul Ross was not a jeweller listed in 1921 (different guy)
Jim Smith	James William Smith	11 Feb 1887	SM 1906	⬥ Listed as from Marylebone (Geelong Juniors) in "The Encyclopedia" ⬥ Born to John Smith and Mary Williams ⬥ Likely ruled out James Smith, DOB 1887, DOD 1963 in Geelong ⬥ Returned to Geelong Junior Association in 1907 ⬥ Possibly captain of East Geelong from 1910–1919 ⬥ J Smith is cleared from East Geel to Eastern District in 1923
Alby Williams	Albert Joseph Williams	3 Aug 1916	NM 1943	⬥ Married Doris Vivienne Williams (nee Jackman) in 1940 ⬥ When Doris passed away in 1964, Alby was still listed as alive in her death notice
Bill Woods	William Cross Woods	[?] [?] 1881	Geel 1909	⬥ Thought by AFL to be William Henry Woods, DOB 31 Aug 1890 (unlikely) ⬥ Then believed to be William Woods, born 1890 in Portarlington, enlisted in First AIF in 1915 and returned to Aus in 1919 ⬥ Potential cremation date 6 July 1972 in Springvale (unlikely to be our man) ⬥ Initial scepticism from AFL/SR; mention of brother called Ike ⬥ Potential match of William Cross Woods (1881–1959) ⬥ Third son of Emma and Isaac Woods (potentially William's parents) died in 1891 ⬥ Discovery of alternate surname Burgess which seemed to be used interchangeably with Woods ⬥ DOD of William Cross Woods listed as 3 Aug 1959 in Geelong ⬥ Info on William's son Isaac ⬥ Detailed family tree of William Cross Woods, refuting AFL/SR likely incorrect beliefs that he was still William Henry Woods ⬥ AFL/SR still pushing back on William Cross ⬥ Burial info on Woods' potential wife Adeline Alice ⬥ Suggestion for AFL to purchase Woods' mother's death certificate to glean more information

Possibly living (born pre-1930) V/AFL footballers as at 28 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Angus Abbey	Angus Maxwell Abbey	15 Nov 1925	Foot 1949–54
Jack Atkinson	[?]	23 Jun 1928	Rich 1950
Lindsay Baglin	Lindsay Gordon Baglin	2 Mar 1929	Foot 1947 NM 1949
Des Bell	Desmond Clyde Bell	23 May 1923	Melb 1946–48	⬥ Alive in Aug 2022
Ivan Clues	Ivan Noel Clues	10 May 1929	Coll 1951	⬥ Married in 1949, likely divorced by 1954 ⬥ Appears to have been living in Mt Isa in 1980 ⬥ Collingwood FC unsure on his current whereabouts
Greg Dean	[?]	14 Oct 1928	StK 1949–50
Norm Edwards	[?]	23 Oct 1928	Foot 1950–51
Arthur Fitt	Arthur Aloysius Fitt Jr.	12 Feb 1928	Fitz 1950
Nick Gelavis	Nikolas Gelavis	15 Jun 1929	SM 1953–54 Foot 1954
Brian Gilmore	Brian R. Gilmore	1 Dec 1929	Ess 1950–53 StK 1955
Max Glass	Maxwell Herbert Glass	2 Oct 1925	SM 1945	⬥ Last confirmed existence in Jan 1999 (possibly near Coffs Harbour) ⬥ Living in Rye, 1980 (electoral roll), has a son also named Maxwell (John)
Eddie Goodger	Edmund James Goodger	10 Mar 1929	Fitz 1949–58
Gordon Green	Gordon Stanley Green	31 May 1925	NM 1942	⬥ Alive in Jul 2018
Barry Griffiths	Barry McIntosh Griffiths	12 Jul 1929	Haw 1950–52	⬥ Originally from Canterbury ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for East. Suburban Churches ⬥ Possibly thought to be Barry Joseph Griffiths (unlikely) ⬥ Listed in 1953 article as 22 y.o., conflicts with 1929 DOB ⬥ Transferred from Oakleigh to Albury in 1954 ⬥ Played with Acton in Canberra in 1959 ⬥ Strong match for Barry McIntosh re: locations etc.
Doug Guy	Douglas George Guy	21 Nov 1929	Carl 1950–53
Les Jarry	[?]	28 Sep 1928	SM 1948–49
Andy Larkins	[?]	30 Oct 1928	Geel 1950
Greg Lourey	[?]	1 Aug 1927	Melb 1948; 1950 Fitz 1951–52
Jack MacDonald	Jack R. MacDonald	16 May 1927	Haw 1951–53	⬥ Originally from Carey Grammar / Camberwell ⬥ Also played for Creswick and Glen Iris ⬥ Coached at Powelltown
Jim Miller	James Henry Miller	30 May 1919	Foot 1938–48	⬥ Alive in Jun 2023
Tom Miller	[?]	3 Jul 1928	Foot 1947–50
Wally Nash	[?]	10 Jun 1929	Haw 1953–54
Frank Pattison	Francis Xavier Pattison	29 Sep 1928	StK 1951
Fred Payne	Frederick Ronald Payne	4 Feb 1927	Ess 1949–53	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Harry Paynter	Henry Charles Paynter	17 Sep 1927	Coll 1950	⬥ Alive in Feb 2024
Jim Rattray	[?]	22 Aug 1929	Haw 1949–52
Bill Redmond	William George Arthur Redmond	29 May 1927	Carl 1947–48
Cliff Riley	Clifford David Riley	2 Feb 1927	StK 1951–52
Don Scott	Donald Rex Scott	5 Nov 1929	SM 1950–54
Jack Storey	John Ivan Storey	1 Jul 1929	Foot 1948–49
Jack Taylor	[?]	9 May 1924	Haw 1945	⬥ Originally from Melbourne High School ⬥ Lived in Ashburton, played for Glen Ormond
Bob Templeton	[?]	25 Oct 1927	Foot 1947–49; 1953
Jack Thomson	[?]	22 Jan 1929	Melb 1949–53
Ron Warren	[?]	5 Oct 1928	Geel 1949
Kevin Webb	[?]	2 Oct 1928	Rich 1949 Melb 1951
Brian Williamson	[?]	9 Dec 1928	NM 1947

There are a further...

• 24 players born in 1930
• 31 players born in 1931
• 22 players born in 1932
• 49 players born in 1933
• 44 players born in 1934

Recently confirmed DODs and/or DOBs (since 23 February 2024)

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Bill Hearn	Roger Musgrove Hearn (later: William Hearn)	4 Mar 1914	3 Nov 1949	Rich 1935	Confirmation post
Charlie King	Charles William King	31 Jul 1926	12 Sep 2007	Geel 1949	Confirmation post
Jim Broockmann	[?]	6 May 1936	31 Oct 2011	Fitz 1958	Confirmation post
Pat Harrington	Patrick Keith Harrington	18 Mar 1929	2 Jul 2011	SM 1954	Confirmation post

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Missing DOBs V/AFL footballers as at 28 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	D.O.D.	Career	Notes
Stewart Anderson	Glen Stewart Anderson	1910	7 Aug 1962	StK 1933–35 NM 1937–38
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	1902	[?]	StK 1927	See DOD list
Dick Casey	Richard James Casey	c. 1881	16 Apr 1919	SM 1905–12
Morrie Davidson	Maurice Davidson	1904	11 Jul 1970	NM 1930
Bill Hennington	William Hennington	c. 1891	11 Jul 1964	SM 1914
Jim Schellnack	James Schellnack	c. 1880	24 May 1968	SM 1904

Eddie Goodger is still alive. Sadly his wife passed away in 2019:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/goodger-patricia/4691591/

 

[GreyCrow]

Lindsay Gordon (DON) Baglin was still alive in 2018 according to Nancys notice
Baglin (nee Joyce) Nancy Veronica

24.01.1930 - 01.10.2018 Passed away peacefully at home. Dearly loved wife of Lindsay (Don)

Arthur Fitt (from Ryerson)
FITT Arthur AloysiusDeath notice26MAY1996Deathat Bodella Nursing Home, Kew, late of East PrestonThe Age (Melbourne)28MAY1996

Brian R Gilmpre - Private Tree on Ancestry suggests RUPERT as a middle name (also has 1928 instead of 1929)

Les Jarry - still alive as of 2014 JARRY Marjorie Allison (Marj) Passed away peacefully on Sept. 11, 2014 Aged 86 years Loved and loving wife of Les

 

[Gibbsy]

Lindsay Gordon (DON) Baglin was still alive in 2018 according to Nancys notice
Baglin (nee Joyce) Nancy Veronica

24.01.1930 - 01.10.2018 Passed away peacefully at home. Dearly loved wife of Lindsay (Don)

Arthur Fitt (from Ryerson)
FITT Arthur AloysiusDeath notice26MAY1996Deathat Bodella Nursing Home, Kew, late of East PrestonThe Age (Melbourne)28MAY1996

Brian R Gilmpre - Private Tree on Ancestry suggests RUPERT as a middle name (also has 1928 instead of 1929)

Les Jarry - still alive as of 2014 JARRY Marjorie Allison (Marj) Passed away peacefully on Sept. 11, 2014 Aged 86 years Loved and loving wife of Les

The Fitt you’ve got there is his father – there are some posts semi recently from 35Daicos and myself that support this

 

[GreyCrow]

The Fitt you’ve got there is his father – there are some posts semi recently from 35Daicos and myself that support this

Yeah I went to bed wondering if I should proof check it but sleeep

 

[Gibbsy]

Digging back a bit more into Otto Buck. He was born as Samuel Otto John Buck in St Arnaud in 1876.

Buck plays footy for Carlton in 1897. Then he really starts to get around. Going by electoral rolls / marriage records on Ancestry...

• 1903, 1905, 1906 – known as Samuel Otto John Buck in Carlton North, VIC
• 1909 – known as William Otto Buck in Hopetoun, VIC
• 1912 – known as Otto William Buck in Surrey Hills, VIC
• 1914, 1916, 1917 – known as Otto William Buck in Mildura, VIC

That's three different listed names in the space of six years. Bit to work with here – I'd love to know why he kept changing his name in official records. Especially since he was married twice, both under even more different names to the ones listed above! In 1897 he was listed as Samuel Otto Buck when marrying Florence Loveday Hince, and in 1904 he was listed as Samuel Otto William Buck when marrying Cecelia Hickey.

---

Just a note on his children, which may provide clues. He had:

• A daughter Gladys Henrietta Baker (nee Buck), DOB 27 Aug 1897 in St Kilda, DOD 29 Dec 1946 in Witu Island, Papua New Guinea
• Three children from 1902 to 1906 who all died in the space of a year
• A son William Otto Buck (note: same name as one of Buck's aliases), DOB 6 Aug 1907 in Walhalla, DOD 1989 in Ararat
• A son Francis Michael Buck, DOB 11 Nov 1910 in Collingwood, DOD 1996 in Melbourne

Some of those deaths aren't all that long ago. I'm going to scope out some death notices if possible to see what I can find. I remember someone a while back bringing up the PNG link – would be interesting to see if there's anything in that.

Similarly, his siblings were, according to one Ancestry tree:

• A sister Henrietta Laura Buck, DOB 1870, DOD 1875 (pre-Otto so not really relevant)
• A sister Sybella Mary ..., DOB 1872 in Talbot, DOD 18 Aug 1954 in St Kilda
• A sister Ada Frances ..., DOB 1874 in St Arnaud, DOD 1965 in Benalla (however no cert on Vic BDM)
• A brother Frank Percy William Buck, DOB 1882 in Carlton, DOD 1964 in Glenroy

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Okay, Vic BDM death listing of William Otto Buck in 1989 lists his father as simply William Buck and his mother as Cecelia Buck (a match for Otto Buck's second wife). Looks like Otto Buck dropped all of "Samuel", "Otto" and "John" over time, and eventually became known as "William Buck". Important to make sure we aren't getting anything to do with his son confused with him.



William Buck (1907–1989) was also known as Wally.

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The 1961 death notice of brother Frank Percy William Buck / Percy Frank William Buck doesn't turn up anything in relation to his father, unfortunately.



Nothing from the 1954 death notice of sister Sybella Mary Robertson (nee Buck) either.

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Looks like Otto Buck spent a bit of time in Ouyen, I'm gonna say either late 1900s or early-to-mid 1910s. It's only about an hour from Hopetoun, where he lived in 1909 as "William Otto Buck". If there's one thing I've learned from researching old footballers, it's that nothing good comes out of billiards saloons!!



... I wasn't too far off. He sold off the billiards saloon in November 1911.

 

[Gibbsy]

The disappearance of Cecelia Buck (nee Hickey), Otto's wife, is just as crucial to finding out his whereabouts. On the detailed Ancestry page of Otto Buck linked in the current 'missing DOD' list, it's revealed that Cecilia's death is also unknown.

Cecelia appears on the electoral rolls in 1905 and 1906 alongside Otto in Carlton North, but disappears from the rolls after that.

Here she is after being discharged from prison in 1916 after doing three months' hard labour for assault:



Then in November 1922, a warrant goes out for her arrest in Richmond, VIC under the shortened name Celia Buck for failing to pay child support for her two kids.



Less than a year later, and a warrant is sent out by a Stella Talbot in Petersham, NSW for Celia Buck's arrest, this time for child desertion. Not sure who Talbot is at this stage or where the connection is.



Do we think Otto and Cecelia are still together at this stage? Given imprisonments and misdemeanours, we can't rule out further name changes either.

Cecelia is listed as "Mrs Buck" in this 1932 death notice of her brother William Martin Hickey. Note that she isn't marked as deceased, suggesting she is either still alive or her whereabouts is unknown.



Can't be sure if this is the Cecelia Buck we are after, but this is the last mention of any Cecelia Bucks or Celia Bucks on Trove – of Eumundi, QLD in 1938. (pic removed, there was another Cecelia Buck who lived in Queensland. Disregard)

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Most of the Cecelia Hickeys look like this on Ancestry, feeding off this supposed idea that she died in Bendigo, VIC:



But searching through a few more of the matches, we find this – same birth year and location, but married to a William Maxted (note: this is from the Maxted family tree, too) and given a death date of 2 August 1943 in Paddington, NSW – not all that far from Petersham!



Using exact date searches, I can now confirm that Cecilia Maxted (note: first name misspelt), nee Buck, nee Hickey, died in Paddington on that date, 2 August 1943.

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Through that link, I discovered another child of Cecelia's, a Lawrence Roy Maxted (1919–1999).



I thought this might have meant that Cecelia had separated from Otto Buck by 1919, but upon searching for Lawrence's birth record via Vic BDM, I found...



He was born as Lawrence Roy Buck, to William Buck and Celia Buck. There we go again with both parents using names different from what were listed on their birth certificates – William Buck (Otto) who had certainly come a long way from Samuel John Otto Buck, while Cecelia Buck (nee Hickey) was simply going as Celia Buck.

We now know that Otto Buck was still alive around 1919.

UPDATE: Having double-checked this, I am thinking now the William listed as the father may in fact be William Maxted, not William (Otto) Buck!

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William Maxted was an immigrant from England who came to Australia circa 1912. Interestingly, whoever placed the death notice for Maxted in 1946 didn't think it worthy of including his partner Cecelia (not sure if they married). No gig in the funeral notice either!



Not that this is particularly important, but I'm trying to build the story of when Cecelia moved up to New South Wales, as it may give us an indication as to where and what Otto was doing after 1919.

 

[Gibbsy]

Okay. There's a couple of trees with unsourced references to Otto Buck dying in 1946 in Victoria. I'll give it some investigation, but I'm open to the chance that this may be a mistake stemming from William Maxted's death in 1946, and people possibly accidentally drawing a link between Cecelia and the death year of her final partner (perhaps presuming it was still Otto Buck). Whatever the case, it's likely Otto Buck dies as "William Buck", given he seemed to have been using that name in perpetuity from about 1919 onwards.



BDM searches in Victoria and NSW bring up nothing, so I'm definitely wary of this date.

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Well, well, well! I didn't expect to see this. A Celia Maxted and William Maxted living together in Fitzroy South, 1914!





So... Otto Buck and Cecelia Hickey married in 1905. The pair are listed together in the 1905 and 1906 Carlton North electoral roll. They are trying for children and have two kids a year apart that both pass away almost instantly. They then had William in 1907 in Walhalla, and by 1909, Otto is living in Ouyen, but this time with no mention of Cecelia on the rolls. Despite this, the pair have Francis in 1910. By 1912, the pair are living together in Surrey Hills, Vic, according to the electoral roll.

Around this time, William Maxted arrives on a ship from England to Australia. For what ever reason, Cecelia is no longer living with Otto Buck and has shacked up with William Maxted by 1914 in Carlton and then Fitzroy (not sure which order). She even takes his name. Meanwhile, from 1914–1917, Otto Buck is living up in Mildura, close to some relatives. During this time, in 1916, Cecelia is imprisoned as Cecelia Buck.

Then – and this is the part that I find sort of improbable – Lawrence Roy Buck is born in 1919, to Celia and William. As I was typing this I thought William was Otto Buck, who at times went by William Buck. What I am now thinking is that William is in fact William Maxted, and for whatever reason, Lawrence was born with the surname Buck – even though Cecelia was using the Maxted surname at times by that stage.

This makes more sense with the linear timeline. It would have been very unlikely for Celia to have children with Otto, leave him for William Maxted, return to have another child with Otto, and then leave to return to William Maxted again, this time interstate!

What appears to be the case now is that Cecelia Buck (nee Hickey) and William Maxted have been living together in Carlton since at least 1914. They have their first and only child together, Lawrence, in Carlton in 1919. They then, in the next year, make the move up to New South Wales.

Below is a record of a Mrs Cecelia Maxted living in Glebe in 1920.



This would also align with the warrants issued for Cecelia in both 1922 and 1923. The first, asking her to pay child support in Richmond for "her two children", is going to have been issued by someone who needs the money, and also has no idea that she actually has three children (Lawrence in 1919). I am leaning towards this warrant being put forth by Otto Buck.

The second warrant comes from a Stella Talbot in Petersham, NSW, who I still am not sure where she fits into the picture, but it does draw a link to Cecelia's move to Sydney.

I guess Cecelia and William Maxted then lived in various suburbs of Sydney (presumably together) until their deaths in 1943 and 1946 respectively.

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It does feel a little bit like, after all this, we still only have the most recent Otto Buck 'sighting' at Mildura in 1917, but there is grounds to believe that it was him putting out the request for child support payments in 1922. I'm also curious about Stella Talbot, her links, and whether it might relate to Otto in some way.

I appreciate there is A LOT of information in the last three posts, but I hope it may make it easier for anyone else to jump into this cold case and keep digging!

---

I am sticking at this one because I have nothing else on this evening. Here's a bit of a wild, out-there guess as to who Stella Talbot is, and why she would be pursuing Cecelia Buck for "child desertion" when there has never been any mention of a Stella Talbot until now, and certainly none of the Stella Talbots (or similar) from NSW on Ancestry appear to have even remote links to Otto, Cecelia and co.

There is also the question of how this Stella Talbot would know so much about Cecelia Buck – her height, build, complexion, hair colour, eye colour and occupation – unless they weren't extremely close. My late-night hypothesis is that Stella Talbot is a concoction of a name dreamt up by either Otto or (on his behalf) Otto's sister Sybella Mary Robertson (nee Buck), who was born in Talbot!

 

[GreyCrow]

Colin Bock born 1934 in the 1934 listings

It is Colin James Bock as noted here

Stratford Football Club - Gippsland Times (Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 19 Feb 1951




Cleared to Collingwood - Gippsland Times (Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 24 Jun 1954



Confirms Stratford connection and below confirms James as middle name

UK and Ireland, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960 for Colin James Bock​

London 1951 Jul

All this to say July is important as he is listed as 16 and AFootball has September 1934 as birth - which matches this death age

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/bock--colin-james/3290594/

BOCK. — Colin James

Late of Twin Waters

Passed away peacefully Sunday 14th July 2019
Aged 84 years

Again July which connects to a later 1934 birth


Summary : Colin Bock Death Date and Change of Name July 14 2019 and insert JAMES as middle name

 

[GreyCrow]

Fred Le Deux was still alive in 2022

How Geelong defied gravity and redefined AFL success

Patrick Dangerfield says Geelong will stay humble – because it knows how hard premierships are to win.

www.theage.com.au

Among the mob is “Jumpin” Jack Hawkins, a Geelong player from the 1970s and the father of Tom. He has come to the ground with Tom’s grandparents, Pam and Fred Le Deux. Fred also played with the Cats.

Tista De Lorenzo could be on FB ( I dont have it) picture certainly is of a mature aged male

Warren Holyoak has no notices or his wife - an interesting snippet is thay have lived in the same property in Balwyn for 60+ years - if you feel that No History Available on Real Estate websites says no house sale info - Also the Balwayn address is listed as
Warren JOHN Holyoak - note the addition of a middle name

 

[GreyCrow]

Ronald JOHN Derrick 1933

Im 90/10 on this one but we fall into that valley of unknown when it comes to official records

I started with Ryerson where the above is listed as passing in 1999 in Queensland but aged 66 - well that fits lets examine

Which is where the official records deaths in Qld end 1994

Hunt around for Tribute notices and 1999 falls outside of most internet tribute sites.

Look for electoral addresses and we spot Ronald JOHN Derrick living in Brighton in 1954 ( on his own) but the thread that holds this together is his occupation of Cabinetmaker.

No more RJ Derrick in Victoria but we spot RJ Derrick in Qld in Coolangatta 1977 married and Cabinetmaker

Again QLD marriages finish 1949 and there is no marriage in Victoria

Now I spotted a stumbling block - the Ryerson notice says he is 66 when he dies Feb 8 1999 - but he was born Feb 17 which makes him legally 65 - maybe the informant for the article said 66 as he was close

But then we spot a family tree that slides around that by saying he was born in Victoria in 1932 and dying in Queensland on the above date

Can anyone find Ron in Victoria after those dates or have access to other records?

Possible death and name change Ronald John Derrick born Feb 17 1933 dying Feb 8 1999 in Queensland

There is a team photo that lists him aged 21 in a 1954 photo

 

[35Daicos]

Ronald JOHN Derrick 1933

Im 90/10 on this one but we fall into that valley of unknown when it comes to official records

I started with Ryerson where the above is listed as passing in 1999 in Queensland but aged 66 - well that fits lets examine

Which is where the official records deaths in Qld end 1994

Hunt around for Tribute notices and 1999 falls outside of most internet tribute sites.

Look for electoral addresses and we spot Ronald JOHN Derrick living in Brighton in 1954 ( on his own) but the thread that holds this together is his occupation of Cabinetmaker.

No more RJ Derrick in Victoria but we spot RJ Derrick in Qld in Coolangatta 1977 married and Cabinetmaker

Again QLD marriages finish 1949 and there is no marriage in Victoria

Now I spotted a stumbling block - the Ryerson notice says he is 66 when he dies Feb 8 1999 - but he was born Feb 17 which makes him legally 65 - maybe the informant for the article said 66 as he was close

But then we spot a family tree that slides around that by saying he was born in Victoria in 1932 and dying in Queensland on the above date

Can anyone find Ron in Victoria after those dates or have access to other records?

Possible death and name change Ronald John Derrick born Feb 17 1933 dying Feb 8 1999 in Queensland

There is a team photo that lists him aged 21 in a 1954 photo

I'd say you've got the right chap. This would be him living with his wife and a couple of their kids in 1980:

https://m.facebook.com/AFLQUEENSLAND/photos/a.412026416065/10158497866796066/

The father Ley^ will be Leyland John, a son of Ronald John Derrick.

Two QAFL favourites hit century | AFL Queensland

www.aflq.com.au

While it doesn't exactly prove you have the right man, I think there's enough evidence overall to be very confident!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Doing a separate search on the Derrick's, I've just stumbled upon a Facebook profile of a Ron Derrick with a Janice in his list.

No Jesse or Leyland though.

Leyland's middle name isn't a match either.

There's another Derrick surname with friend list accessible who has a Ron, a Janice and a Jesse.

My thinking is this is the right Derrick's but, as there's no Leyland Derrick on FB, this might be one of those iffy cases.

 

[35Daicos]

Doing a separate search on the Derrick's, I've just stumbled upon a Facebook profile of a Ron Derrick with a Janice in his list.

No Jesse or Leyland though.

Leyland's middle name isn't a match either.

There's another Derrick surname with friend list accessible who has a Ron, a Janice and a Jesse.

My thinking is this is the right Derrick's but, as there's no Leyland Derrick on FB, this might be one of those iffy cases.

Redman, everything I know about Facebook I could probably write on the back of a postage stamp!! It's normally only by 'accident' that I end up on it!

Ron Derrick was still quite young (22) when he played his last game for St Kilda. It seems quite likely he didn't stay in Victoria for long after that, and that he ended up in Queensland. Assuming he was still young enough to play Australian Football it's fair to think he would have been a superstar at that level of competition, so I think it fits that he would be described as a "Palm Beach legend". I don't think there's any real doubt at all on this one.

 

[GreyCrow]

Another one moved to Queensland

Lindsay Turnbull from Kew [?]RM TODAY AT PRACTICE - [?]lingwood - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 24 Mar 1951



Nothing on Ryerson but there is a Turnbull Family Tree that says Lindsay WALLACE Turnbull moved to Queensland with his wife Jessie Donovan Turnbull ( after Vic records 1958)

This is confirmed by Electoral roll records

1954 Kew with mother Isabel and brother
1967 Blackburn Victoria with mother
1972 Croydon Vic with Jessie Donovan Turnbull (presumed wife)
1977 - 1980 Nambour Qld with Jessie Donovan ( interestingly from Clerk/Accountant to Park Ranger)

Now the catch is the Family Tree has him passing November 22 2023

Ok should be easy to fins - check Courier Mail Tributes - nope
Check Cleveland City records - nope
Redland Council Cemeteries Records - nope
Check Herald Sun Tributes - nope

Now 2 other family trees listed with this person also have 2023 as death date but I dismiss them for copy bias

Anybody in Qld want to check local stuff or if someone wants to contact the owner of the Turnbull tree

Summary: Possible Lindsay WALLACE Turnbull name addition and Death Date November 22 2023

 

[the croucher]

Another one moved to Queensland

Lindsay Turnbull from Kew [?]RM TODAY AT PRACTICE - [?]lingwood - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 24 Mar 1951

View attachment 1918127

Nothing on Ryerson but there is a Turnbull Family Tree that says Lindsay WALLACE Turnbull moved to Queensland with his wife Jessie Donovan Turnbull ( after Vic records 1958)

This is confirmed by Electoral roll records

1954 Kew with mother Isabel and brother
1967 Blackburn Victoria with mother
1972 Croydon Vic with Jessie Donovan Turnbull (presumed wife)
1977 - 1980 Nambour Qld with Jessie Donovan ( interestingly from Clerk/Accountant to Park Ranger)

Now the catch is the Family Tree has him passing November 22 2023

Ok should be easy to fins - check Courier Mail Tributes - nope
Check Cleveland City records - nope
Redland Council Cemeteries Records - nope
Check Herald Sun Tributes - nope

Now 2 other family trees listed with this person also have 2023 as death date but I dismiss them for copy bias

Anybody in Qld want to check local stuff or if someone wants to contact the owner of the Turnbull tree

Summary: Possible Lindsay WALLACE Turnbull name addition and Death Date November 22 2023

I've sent a message to the owner of Turnbull tree on Ancestry. Not sure how we'll go, his profile indicates that it has been a while since he was active on the site.

 

[the croucher]

I've sent a message to the owner of Turnbull tree on Ancestry. Not sure how we'll go, his profile indicates that it has been a while since he was active on the site.

Reasonably good news...I have just had a message from the Turnbull tree owner on Ancestry confirming that Lindsay Wallace Turnbull was the Hawthorn player. Unfortunately, he didn't pass on a link to any source confirming the DOD of 22 Nov 2023.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

... I'm currently working on a full data comparison across wikidata/af.com/AFL tables

Status update on the comparison/clean up across wikidata/af.com/AFL tables

6 weeks ago we had about 300 players with DOB discrepancies across these three key online sources - this is now down to 25 - thanks to Oliver G and *Paul* for making many updates to australianfootball.com and AFL Tables (still a few more to come)

Below is the remaining list of 15 cases where discrepancies are yet to be resolved - largely because the correct date is unknown/unclear.

af id	known name	teams	AF.dob	AFLTables dob	wiki.dob	Blueseum	Collingwod Forever	Tigerland Archive	Comment
988​	Kelly Robinson	Fitzroy	1876		1876				Exact DOB unknown
1279​	Bill McNamara	Carlton	1876-06-08	1876-06-09	1876-06-09	1876-06-08			Exact DOB unknown: Blueseum have 8 Jun but AFL records had 9 Jun
1610​	Tom Fox	Carlton	1876-09-21	1876-09-21	1876-10-03	1876-10-03			See this post
2365​	Percy Salmon	Geelong	1885-10-20	1885-12-20	1885-10-20				Exact DOB unknown: 1886 birth registration
3384​	Frank Hodgins	Geelong	1888-04-05	1888-05-04	1888-04-05				Exact DOB unknown - US style date issue?
5057​	Ted Terry	St Kilda	1904-07-04	1904-07-04	1904-06-04				wiki has link to Trove birth notice with 4/6 date but published in July 1904
6453​	Charlie Pierce	Haw/NM	1917-02-23	1917-02-03	1917-02-03				Exact DOB unknown: WWII record has both dates in file; cemetery record has 23/2
6744​	Jeff Grieve	SM	1918-01-21	1918-01-21	1918-01-27				Exact DOB unknown: WWII record has 27/1 but footy records have 21/1
8044​	Allan Reid	Geelong	1926-12-14	1926-12-14	1926-12-04				Exact DOB unknown: WWII record has 4/12 but footy records have 14/12
8003​	George Stafford	Carlton	1932-10-21	1932-10-21	1930-10-21	1930-10-21			Exact year unknown - Blueseum has source articles but not definitive
8341​	Reg Hall	Rich	1931-11-19	1932-03-20	1931-11-19			1932-03-20	Exact DOB uncertain - family edit to wiki suggests 20/03/1932
8385​	Don Walsh	Coll	1934-08-26	1934-08-26	1934-08-25		1934-08-25		Exact DOB unknown
8659​	Fred Wooller	Geelong	1937-10-21	1938-10-21	1937-10-21				This article suggests 1938
11375​	Des English	Carlton	1957-10-09	1957-10-09	1956-01-22	1956-01-22			Exact DOB unknown
12428​	Laurie Keene	West Coast	1961-01-02	1961-02-01	1961-02-01				Exact DOB unknown

 

[35Daicos]

Status update on the comparison/clean up across wikidata/af.com/AFL tables

6 weeks ago we had about 300 players with DOB discrepancies across these three key online sources - this is now down to 25 - thanks to Oliver G and *Paul* for making many updates to australianfootball.com and AFL Tables (still a few more to come)

Below is the remaining list of 15 cases where discrepancies are yet to be resolved - largely because the correct date is unknown/unclear.

af id	known name	teams	AF.dob	AFLTables dob	wiki.dob	Blueseum	Collingwod Forever	Tigerland Archive	Comment
988​	Kelly Robinson	Fitzroy	1876		1876				Exact DOB unknown
1279​	Bill McNamara	Carlton	1876-06-08	1876-06-09	1876-06-09	1876-06-08			Exact DOB unknown: Blueseum have 8 Jun but AFL records had 9 Jun
1610​	Tom Fox	Carlton	1876-09-21	1876-09-21	1876-10-03	1876-10-03			See this post
2365​	Percy Salmon	Geelong	1885-10-20	1885-12-20	1885-10-20				Exact DOB unknown: 1886 birth registration
3384​	Frank Hodgins	Geelong	1888-04-05	1888-05-04	1888-04-05				Exact DOB unknown - US style date issue?
5057​	Ted Terry	St Kilda	1904-07-04	1904-07-04	1904-06-04				wiki has link to Trove birth notice with 4/6 date but published in July 1904
6453​	Charlie Pierce	Haw/NM	1917-02-23	1917-02-03	1917-02-03				Exact DOB unknown: WWII record has both dates in file; cemetery record has 23/2
6744​	Jeff Grieve	SM	1918-01-21	1918-01-21	1918-01-27				Exact DOB unknown: WWII record has 27/1 but footy records have 21/1
8044​	Allan Reid	Geelong	1926-12-14	1926-12-14	1926-12-04				Exact DOB unknown: WWII record has 4/12 but footy records have 14/12
8003​	George Stafford	Carlton	1932-10-21	1932-10-21	1930-10-21	1930-10-21			Exact year unknown - Blueseum has source articles but not definitive
8341​	Reg Hall	Rich	1931-11-19	1932-03-20	1931-11-19			1932-03-20	Exact DOB uncertain - family edit to wiki suggests 20/03/1932
8385​	Don Walsh	Coll	1934-08-26	1934-08-26	1934-08-25		1934-08-25		Exact DOB unknown
8659​	Fred Wooller	Geelong	1937-10-21	1938-10-21	1937-10-21				This article suggests 1938
11375​	Des English	Carlton	1957-10-09	1957-10-09	1956-01-22	1956-01-22			Exact DOB unknown
12428​	Laurie Keene	West Coast	1961-01-02	1961-02-01	1961-02-01				Exact DOB unknown

This really should be right for Don Walsh:


The Obituaries page in the 2017 AFL Season Guide has 25/8/1934, so it seems they (AFL) must have accepted back then that it needed to be changed.