NEAFL- 2014

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smy1305 said:
Any qualifications BB outside of being a footy supporter / possibly ex player / possibly current player to suggest that you have any more knowledge of whether an umpire is doing a good job or not...:rolleyes:
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smy1305,

I believe like you my friend, I have all the qualifications required to be a judge on fair of bias - just like us all here on this forum or at any prescribed game, we are as I am, a supporter currently, like most a past player at level of achievement for my/our ability, and unlike most, I have been a club administrator to a level where I could not take the club (or my ideas) any further and also again unlike most an official accredited sanctioned umpire, at a level to understand that a foreseen star player is just a number and a unforseen player is also just a number of the 44 players it takes to play our game - if you play within the rules of our game and are noticed to be fouled then you are aggrieved, if you play outside the rules and you are noticed to aggrieve, then you are fouled, according to the rules as prescribed, it is not rocket science, it is some times on more occasions than less that just our ego's or lack of them as umpires take over our ability to be fair when ruling what is correct or not correct - according to the rules as prescribed for the game. Take out the ego out of the equation and we then have a level field of play. (At a NEAFL level in the past), the crowd unfortunately (by its displeasure of a star being disposed of the ball) have had more say in decisions awarded to certain players than the rules prescribe, ego's in this case (or he is a known player in the umpires mind at the time) take over the umpires ability to rule fairly - be it the game being to fast or the umpire being to slow - those with the biggest crowd or the biggest stars get the decisions in most of these occasions.

Please be the umpire, replay as I have in an unbiased mood of the G/F's of the both Northern and Eastern Leagues on the NEAFL website and you be the judge - I am not saying that the umpiring decided the outcomes in both games, but the decisions and penalties awarded certainly out way the rules as written in favour of the AFL reserve teams. If this happens throughout the home and away season then there is 2 places for the non AFL teams in a final 6 teams, therefore no level playing field and a fixed competition were non AFL teams (although still expected to spend their non AFL funded $$$$$ contributions) are treated as second class cousins.
 
Think there is a certain level of perceived bias you are not adding in to the equation here based on your "2nd class cousin" thought process. TBH reckon it is all crap. Umpires aren't robots, they don't work in a bubble. At the top level the better players tend to get the rub of the green as well in 50/50 calls (generally), the team with the largest crowd in attendance does as well, but I think you would find that the umpires at NEAFL level are as good as any umpires in the land for this level of footy. You need to keep in mind that in the main, 2 people can be watching exactly the same game of footy and have polar opposite views as to how well the umpires have fared. One of the unique aspects to our game and generally revolves around whether that persons team is winning or losing. I have never been an umpire, apart from umpiring some school level games (where I must add I am usually outstanding and never made a mistake!:) ) but it is a difficult job and not quite as black &white as you would like to make out bc the game revolves around interpretation. I am sure when you put the whistle in your mouth there is never any complaints but I think bagging umps is a sport with plenty of history and very few will listen let alone care.
 
NEAFL umpires seem good enough to me - they are no more perfect than the players or the spectators. As SMY hints at, it's got a lot to do with whether your team is winning, whether you're having an argument with the girlfriend, whether work's going bad, whether the pies are hot and tasty and whether the beer is cold.
It's a 'first world problem' and I'm just bloody glad that we have people who are prepared to step up and be umpires - I sure wouldn't do it.
Let's be a bit appreciative of them, encourage them and other people who are weighing up whether or not to become umpires. The more recruits we get, the better the standard will be, while the more they get their bums kicked by the punters, the harder it will be to get any umpires at all.
 

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Yeah agree Just... I have been involved at all levels in Qld footy as a player / coach (aside from AFL) for 20 years and I don't think the umps are any better or worse than the guys who umpired me back in Victoria or even what i watch at AFL level sometimes! It's based around perception. I'm sure the umps would like the players to be a bit better too and give away less free kicks...:cool:

For what its worth i think the best umpires are those that pay less frees rather than more - err on the side of just letting the game go. Basically pay the frees that nearly every spectator at the ground could see.
 
I can't say I've noted any systemic bias. I've seen matches where the ACT side (usually Ainslie) had an easier time than the Swans or Giants and I've seen the reverse. Surely going easier on the "underdog" is just as likely a bias to occur in a specific umpire as going easier on the upcoming Reserves players.
 
smy1305 said:
For what its worth i think the best umpires are those that pay less frees rather than more - err on the side of just letting the game go. Basically pay the frees that nearly every spectator at the ground could see.
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yes, yes, YES!

paying a free should be an umpires last resort in contests, as you said only when it is plainly obvious the rules have been broken.
 
kid_a said:
yes, yes, YES!

paying a free should be an umpires last resort in contests, as you said only when it is plainly obvious the rules have been broken.
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Yes, Yes, yes, too.
But don't you hate it when an umpire off the ball runs 100 meters just to pay a technical free ? We get them in Sydney footy and they are roundly disliked and abused - they stop the flow of the game and are usually employees of the Tax Office, or Council By-Laws officers, or company internal auditors.

Yes, kid_a, frees should be an umpire's last resort.....unless of course, it favours MY team and the scores are level with a minute to go.
 
gee I hate people continually bashing umpires. They are an integral part of the game. If you don't like how they do the job by all means pick up a whistle and see how tough it is. But for pete's sake can we get back to talking about footy.
 
no orange peeler said:
gee I hate people continually bashing umpires. They are an integral part of the game. If you don't like how they do the job by all means pick up a whistle and see how tough it is. But for pete's sake can we get back to talking about footy.
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Agree - you end up sounding like Sam Newman which is never a good thing...
 
Arwib said:
I can't say I've noted any systemic bias. I've seen matches where the ACT side (usually Ainslie) had an easier time than the Swans or Giants and I've seen the reverse. Surely going easier on the "underdog" is just as likely a bias to occur in a specific umpire as going easier on the upcoming Reserves players.
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I'm not into umpire bashing however my 2 cents is this...

NEAFL umpires on the whole are pretty good IMO. I've felt on occasions my team has had the rub, sometimes the opponent. They are fit enough to keep up with play, on the whole get into the right position and usually get the decision right.

But... I agree with the post earlier about the afl teams - moreso the listed or name players. It is perfectly natural but let's be honest if a neafl ump did a game with a simon black is he going to give the 50/50 call against a legend (that the ump probably grew up barracking for?). The top ups seem to get different treatment to the listed.
Frankly though I'm pretty sure on the whole the stars in the AFL get looked after better than the rookies also.

I also reckon the NT has had a good home ground advantage over the years also.
 
See The Thunder have recruited A. Davey ( Essendon), J.Brennan ( Suns),and Djerrkura (Bulldogs) from the AFL. Have got Willie Rioli back from Sth.Freo and also gained a guy by the name of Luke Harder from Port Adelaide (Sanfl), ...senior player at that level with a good reputation.
Also, a guy by the name of Sebestian Gilhaus from Central Districts and Shaq Mckenzie from East Perth.......both have played senior level in these comps.
Could The Thunder strike again !!!
Big challenge for Xavier Clarke in his first senior coaching role.!!!
 

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smy1305 said:
Think there is a certain level of perceived bias you are not adding in to the equation here based on your "2nd class cousin" thought process. TBH reckon it is all crap. Umpires aren't robots, they don't work in a bubble. At the top level the better players tend to get the rub of the green as well in 50/50 calls (generally), the team with the largest crowd in attendance does as well, but I think you would find that the umpires at NEAFL level are as good as any umpires in the land for this level of footy. You need to keep in mind that in the main, 2 people can be watching exactly the same game of footy and have polar opposite views as to how well the umpires have fared. One of the unique aspects to our game and generally revolves around whether that persons team is winning or losing. I have never been an umpire, apart from umpiring some school level games (where I must add I am usually outstanding and never made a mistake!:) ) but it is a difficult job and not quite as black &white as you would like to make out bc the game revolves around interpretation. I am sure when you put the whistle in your mouth there is never any complaints but I think bagging umps is a sport with plenty of history and very few will listen let alone care.
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smy1305

While you make a lot of good points on umpiring above, from reading the above and some other following posts in regard to my comments, I think you and a lot of others are a little confused with my original observations of the standard of umpiring we are or I am hoping or expecting to see with the new revamped NEAFL structure, all that I said in a round about way is that it is time to turn up the heat on the standard of umpiring to reflect the standard of the new NEAFL game moving forward - umpires are and always will be, as good as they are coached or instructed to interpret the laws of our game!!!!

While we have a lot of recent Ex AFL players coaching our State League teams around the country, we don't have a lot of recent Ex AFL Umpires coaching our state league umpiring departments, my original comments were, I trust the AFL look at improving the standard of umpiring from the past dual NEAFL competitions to catch up with the new revamped single combined competition. This is not bagging the umpires in any way as we get what we get - it would be just nice to get our umpiring decision making structures to a point where they don't get overwhelmed by who they are (by club or player) umpiring, but stick to their coached interpretations (as some put it) according to the rules as prescribed.

*On a foot note* I would love to discuss other matters regarding this new and exciting upcoming NEAFL season, but the only news worthy post within the last month posted by our fearless news departments on the NEAFL web site is the upcoming Magpies race day (which I hope for the club goes well), Who out there has got any news on signings, retirements etc, that can give us something else to talk about????
 
stuyd1 said:
See The Thunder have recruited A. Davey ( Essendon), J.Brennan ( Suns),and Djerrkura (Bulldogs) from the AFL. Have got Willie Rioli back from Sth.Freo and also gained a guy by the name of Luke Harder from Port Adelaide (Sanfl), ...senior player at that level with a good reputation.
Also, a guy by the name of Sebestian Gilhaus from Central Districts and Shaq Mckenzie from East Perth.......both have played senior level in these comps.
Could The Thunder strike again !!!
Big challenge for Xavier Clarke in his first senior coaching role.!!!
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Thank you stuyd1, you have posted more information (above) on only one team than the total of 2 state AFL organizations' have given us in many months - it may be open to conjecture until these guys are signed, sealed and delivered, but if it works out the way you have reported then Xav will have the core (with the original NT champions this side has) of a very good and much improved NEAFL side for this year.
 
My 2 cents on the umps.
I don't think that an ump goes out to deliberately favour a team or a player, if they did they would not get to this level, or stay at this level for long.
The one and only thing that is unique to our game is the ability of an umpire to bounce the ball at a centre bounce, as a spectator these days it gets very frustrating watching guys try over and over to do this, get it wrong and have to re-call the bounce. I have only umpired juniors and have never tried to bounce it, but I am sure it would be practiced endlessly (not sure what else they would do at training but again never seen an umpire training session, plenty of running I am sure). This skill must be one of the main credentials for anyone at this level.
 
one 4 the road said:
My 2 cents on the umps.
I don't think that an ump goes out to deliberately favour a team or a player, if they did they would not get to this level, or stay at this level for long.
The one and only thing that is unique to our game is the ability of an umpire to bounce the ball at a centre bounce, as a spectator these days it gets very frustrating watching guys try over and over to do this, get it wrong and have to re-call the bounce. I have only umpired juniors and have never tried to bounce it, but I am sure it would be practiced endlessly (not sure what else they would do at training but again never seen an umpire training session, plenty of running I am sure). This skill must be one of the main credentials for anyone at this level.
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one 4 the road,

I would be happy to see the umps throw it up every time in all grades, they could then spend there extra time working on their interpretations of their decisions as a collective, in my experience a lot of work is done on just this point at training, along with fitness (although this is a very personal aspect as if you can't run then you can't umpire), positioning, interpretations and communication. Like footballers only play as they train, an umpire generally only umpire as good as they train also - I hope they all train well and we get this rubbing off in the NEAFL this coming season.
 
Fair enough BB - still think it is only natural for the high profile footballers to receive a bit more favourable treatment - happens at all levels imo and I suppose if you rationalise it, they have done the yards and deserve a bit of respite..:)

Will agree with you on throwing it up - often just embarrassing for the poor bloke when he is having a shocker in this area. Think the only time it should be bounced is to start each quarter, after this throw it up. Why? Not sure, maybe the compromise!
 
I've heard similar things to you JSG on the new recruits at Hills Eagles. I have been told that they have picked up 4-5 from NEAFL Northern, 4-5 from VFL, 2 from SANFL as well as Jericho & Ferguson that you mentioned. It seems that they have gone hard in recruitment over the offseason which they needed to do.

I'm also hearing similar things coming out of Sydney Uni with Brabazon & O'Dwyer their biggest signings to date. And I'm hearing they have picked up an extra 6-8 players from VFL & WAFL.

I don't have as much info on the ACT sides however I believe that they won't hold back this year with Ainslie making a lot of noise on positive signings.

So with the above, I believe that our Northern neighbours and experts on this forum will be in for a surprise in 2014.
 
As with players at this level, umpires are trying to impress and get to the next level.
I am sure that at AFL level the umpire must be able to bounce for all centre bounces, but it just annoys the hell out of me when they constantly have to re-call. I agree with throwing it up at all times, but this will only happen if the AFL guys start doing it.

I follow the Queanbeyan Tigers and the only signings I know of are Brett Fruend (returning after a year in the O & M), a young ruckmen from East Wagga Nick Hull. Josh Bryce is like a recruit having missed all last season due to knee reco.
That's all I know for sure.
Losses again are just speculation but Kaine Stevens looks like going to SA.
 
damochandler said:
i told you brennan would be playing for the thunder

all i ask for the umpires is to throw the ball up at center square and get the stars out of your eyes when umpirin games with the afl reserves in them
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Well done damo, I knew I could rely on you to have some pull with all things NEAFL - you might have to take a couple of Cross Word Puzzles to the footy next year to fill the time and void of your beloved reserve grade boys - or will you be doing the rounds of the fall back clubs to see how your boys who are playing there are doing?
 
Umpiring standards in the NEAFL 2013...... overall , I give a pass mark just. Yes issues with the centre bounces and terrible decisions, but when in the history of aussie rules has this not occurred? At the end of the day, we need individuals to continue to take on the umpiring roles... which is a part time job that is exposed to heaps of abuse in every game they umpire. Tough gig...!!!!!
There is a boundary umpire that ive seen on numerous occasions over at least the past 3 seasons, that performs his role well, but... he consistently for the entire 4 quarters of every game coughs up gollies and spits it out as well as,,, do the hold, the right nostril and expel, then the left nostril and expel.... He does this continually on numerous occasions at any time right on the boundary line in front of women, children etc etc. Now , this needs to be addressed,,, is disgusting.
 
stuyd1 said:
Umpiring standards in the NEAFL 2013...... overall , I give a pass mark just. Yes issues with the centre bounces and terrible decisions, but when in the history of aussie rules has this not occurred? At the end of the day, we need individuals to continue to take on the umpiring roles... which is a part time job that is exposed to heaps of abuse in every game they umpire. Tough gig...!!!!!
There is a boundary umpire that ive seen on numerous occasions over at least the past 3 seasons, that performs his role well, but... he consistently for the entire 4 quarters of every game coughs up gollies and spits it out as well as,,, do the hold, the right nostril and expel, then the left nostril and expel.... He does this continually on numerous occasions at any time right on the boundary line in front of women, children etc etc. Now , this needs to be addressed,,, is disgusting.
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Tell you what.....this wouldn't happen down here in the Eastern branch - our umpires (and our players and spectators for that matter) use hankies.
Is this what we have to expect now by being merged with you uncultured Queenslanders ?
 
I haven't posted anything for a long time but thought I'd weigh in on the various topics of recent conversation. (I'm also on holidays, so I've got some time to kill)

Re club news - I'm involved with Qbn but didn't manage to get down to any pre-Xmas training so can't comment from first hand. But as One for the Road mentioned above, what I hear at this stage is that we've picked up a young ruckman (Hull); have a dangerous small forward returning (Fruend); have a workaholic backman returning from a knee reco (Bryce); have picked up a half back/midfielder (Power - cousin of Atkinson); and may have a couple others I'm not aware of yet. We also have a number of kids ready to step up after gaining a few opportunities in the past year or two. But we have lost our best player over the last two seasons (Stevens to West Adelaide); a tall forward (B Klemke to the O&M); a wing/half back/midfielder (Jolliffe to the O&M); and a key defender (Cavedon to retirement in the Navy in WA). I'm sure as the pre-season unfolds, more info will become available.

Re umpiring so called "stars" - after retiring as a player I went into umpiring for four years and was lucky enough to get a game on the SCG with the Swans Reserves and the now former Tuggeranong NEAFL side. I can absolutely say that umpires don't umpire with stars in their eyes. You simply don't get time to determine if you like the colour of a jumper a player is wearing, and then if you like the player in that jumper, before deciding if what you've just seen is worth a free kick. You just pay what you see/interpret as soon as you see it and don't have time for anything else including judgements on whether you recognise the player or not.

Re umpiring standards and coaching - I reckon they've been pretty good over the past couple of years in the NEAFL. There are always decisions you remember that went against you, but we often forget the lucky ones we got. You always remember the decisions made in the final minutes, but forget the same exact same decisions made in the first few minutes. A pretty good game by an umpire is when they achieve 80% or above correct decisions. now lets equate that to a player. How many players operate at 80% or above in disposal efficiency? I'd say not many, so lets allow the umps a few mistakes, just like we allow our players. In the end it all usually evens itself out.

I got a chance to be part of the coaching panel for local umps for a while - although I'd hardly describe what I was doing as coaching, I just took training sessions. One of the biggest difficulties with umpire training is working out how to incorporate game like drills. It's not like at footy training where everyone can kick, mark and handball and where game-like situations are very easy to replicate. The umpires, I'm sure most of them will admit, don't have the football skills to replicate game situations - Even just kicking the ball to a simulated marking situation can be a challenge. This restricts them mostly to running sessions, video sessions and technique drills (ie bouncing, throwins etc). I reckon they do a bloody good job given the difficulties they face. As for the coaches, the ones I've been involved with are as good as any football coach at our level - their focus is just in a different aspect of our great game.

Re the centre bounce - I'd hate to see the bounce disappear and be replaced at all times by a throw up. It changes the game too much, and changes the type of player we have in the ruck. The variations in bounce allow an old-school big lumbering ruckman to use his body/size/strength in the centre when it a bounce is offline a little. Replace that with a throw up and we can guarantee where the ball will be every time (like a basketball ball-up) and then you start putting skinny spring-heeled jacks in the ruck and the whole game changes. I say leave the centre bounce and allow the big men to remain in the game. (It's a great thing about our game that you can be 5"6 or 7"2 and still play the game. I'd hate to see it become a game where only 6"2 to 6"4 guys play, some who are elite endurance runners, some super quick, some which outstanding leap, some stronger - essentially players all in the same mould, just with one special attribute to differentiate them.

As for recalled centre bounces, my question to all readers is "how does a recall affect the game itself?". Answer is, it doesn't! No time is wiped off the clock, players get a slightly longer rest, no players get a match winning score cancelled, nothing happens in those few seconds. It just doesn't affect the game at all. The only thing it affects is spectators' frustration levels. But I have another question - "If we understand that a recall doesn't affect the game in any way, why do we get so frustrated by it?". That's something completely in our own control, so why not just ignore it and we'll enjoy the game a little more.

Having said that, I do believe the ump match day coaches should allow an ump who is perhaps having a bit of an off day to decide to throw it up for the rest of the day after three or four bad bounces. I think an ump earns a great deal of respect from players by walking in to the centre circle and saying "I'm having a shocker today with the bouncing guys so I'm going the throw it up for the rest of the day". The best umpires are the best communicators and those that get on well with the players out on the field usually do the best job.

Well that's enough of a rant - back to school holiday program duties.

Cheers,
Gois
 
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