Nick Suban - When?

[TheInjuryFactory]

Agree, but I think we have too many "role players" who don't have the ability to adapt and change when things are not working.

Suban knows one way to play and if that's working he's fine - if it's not working he has no other gear to go to.

No right side, one paced and no tricks in the bag. Hopefully he will be superseded at some point.

Agree with this DudleyDocker , I also agree with salim malik on the fact that Suban is a role player and if he is playing his role (unless we are involved in match selection we can only guess what that is from afar) he will keep his spot.

Personally I'm not sure why there is such an insistence that we will get any more impact and composure from first gamers? I would expect poor decisions, rushed disposals, sloppy tackling (if they would manage to stick them at all) and a lack of awareness, in particular to where they need to be in terms of positioning for different scenarios to follow our gameplan. They would put senior players under the pump with their decision making and sloppy positioning. Anybody coming in with no AFL experience will need to be coddled. I have no issue with bringing in youth, but I'm thinking more in the vein of Sheridan and Crozier, both have had plenty of games now and both are our future, but they are also at terms with our gameplan and have been exposed enough to be able to lift to the level required and make an immediate impact. I'm not sure after 2 games that will be possible for a Blakely or a Weller. I think those in support of both would still make excuses for poorer performance than Suban is offering because they are "learning" or will be better for the experience. This may be true but Suban brings a physicality neither possess, not to mention an AFL tank.

Suban is by no means the complete footballer and I don't think anybody is arguing that. I also think that all of us would like to see him superseded. I just wonder whether we are expecting too much from our draftees to come in and outperform Suban immediately. There is no real basis for this theory. WAFL level isn't a shade on AFL. If it his failure to lower the eyes, his lack of a weak foot and giving away free kicks, I'm not sure what some think will happen with a first gamer put in the same role with next to no experience at AFL level.

 

[DudleyDocker]

Personally I'm not sure why there is such an insistence that we will get any more impact and composure from first gamers? I would expect poor decisions, rushed disposals, sloppy tackling (if they would manage to stick them at all) and a lack of awareness, in particular to where they need to be in terms of positioning for different scenarios to follow our gameplan.

Heeney, Cripps, Saad, Gregson, Duggan...

No guarantees TheInjuryFactory, but also no reason to expect that they will necessarily make bad decisions either. From what I have seen of Lachie Weller (and did not see Saturday when I believe he was quiet) he makes excellent decisions and executes skills really well. Blakely has looked really good most games as well. Langdon has real pace which is something we lack at times.

Another thing to bear in mind. When I watched the intra club scratch matches this year, some of the "gun" recruits - e.g. Blakely, Weller - looked bloody awful in the second string side, but when moved into the "main" side they looked great. WAFL form is a guide to AFL form but may not always be the only guide - if so Lachie Neale would have had to play a lot more games than he did. How much poorer would our midfield be if they had held Lachie back because he was not dominating at WAFL level?

Also not suggesting the first gamers need to take Suban's role - we have other of hard bodies (DeBoer, Mzungu) to replace him if need be. I'd be more inclined to run the new guys thorough the sub vest initially to give them a taste, or as a direct like-for-like swap. For example Connor Blakely / Jacob Ballard for an inside mid, Weller / Langdon for an outside runner - e.g. D. Pearce, Tom Sheridan/

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Heeney, Cripps, Saad, Gregson, Duggan...

No guarantees TheInjuryFactory, but also no reason to expect that they will necessarily make bad decisions either. From what I have seen of Lachie Weller (and did not see Saturday when I believe he was quiet) he makes excellent decisions and executes skills really well. Blakely has looked really good most games as well. Langdon has real pace which is something we lack at times.

Another thing to bear in mind. When I watched the intra club scratch matches this year, some of the "gun" recruits - e.g. Blakely, Weller - looked bloody awful in the second string side, but when moved into the "main" side they looked great. WAFL form is a guide to AFL form but may not always be the only guide - if so Lachie Neale would have had to play a lot more games than he did. How much poorer would our midfield be if they had held Lachie back because he was not dominating at WAFL level?

Also not suggesting the first gamers need to take Suban's role - we have other of hard bodies (DeBoer, Mzungu) to replace him if need be. I'd be more inclined to run the new guys thorough the sub vest initially to give them a taste, or as a direct like-for-like swap. For example Connor Blakely / Jacob Ballard for an inside mid, Weller / Langdon for an outside runner - e.g. D. Pearce, Tom Sheridan/

All fair points mate. The problem is, I don't think many are seriously suggesting just giving them the one game as a sub for a taste. I think most are arguing for them to stay in once they get in, in this thread it is at the expense of Suban. I reckon the same people bagging Suban for his numbers and performances would pump up Blakeley and Weller for lesser numbers and worse performances. I would be chuffed as anybody if they did get a chance and blew us away with their performances, but **** me that is a huge punt to take with where we are trying to get to. A taste against absolute bottom rung teams might be a worthwhile investment, but at the expense of Mzungu, MDB, Sheridan, Crozier etc I find that hard to understand. All four would make more sense to replace Suban than those two.

The old man reports back on all the Peel games, he reckons none of the trio are there yet. I am a regular training watcher, hardly notice them to be honest and they are regulars in the Peel contingent at training and that would suggest the match committee aren't as confident just yet as some of us posters. Langdon last time I was down at training wasn't even involved in match simulation at all, was watching with a couple of the other Peel blokes with Simon Lloyd explaining everything to them and telling them what to watch out for while the majority of the group did their thing.

Problem with playing a rookie as a sub is if somebody goes down early the plan backfires, they will play a lot more game time than Ross and the MC would be anticipating. Another backfire is if we require a lift or impact from our sub to replace somebody stinking it up, we are unlikely to receive the necessary impact from a debutant.

I personally reckon Ballard should get a gig before either, talk about somebody who has done his time and has consistently performed in the midfield at Peel for a couple years now, surely his turn comes first? Is in fact more of a like for like to replace Suban than either Blakely or Weller.

I couldn't make a sound argument for replacing a D.Pearce, Sheridan for the sake of bringing Weller in for a taste, it doesn't really make much sense to me. Drop a bloke who is performing to try an untested kid for the sake of exposure? Am I missing something?

Thing about RTB's gameplan is that every player is a cog in the machine. To get Suban out for those young blokes, people are suggesting shifting around half a dozen players. So that would result in lesser cogs in each of those positions for the sake of replacing one cog in Suban. I would have thought this would mess dramatically with our structures, more so than the occasional stinker from Subes.

 

[ydraw]

I couldn't make a sound argument for replacing a D.Pearce, Sheridan for the sake of bringing Weller in for a taste, it doesn't really make much sense to me. Drop a bloke who is performing to try an untested kid for the sake of exposure? Am I missing something?.

I hate to beat a dead horse here but I am pretty sure our club hierarchy rates D. Pearce in our top 10 players, despite the nonstop complaints of people on this board. He is about as likely to be dropped as Mundy or Hill.

 

[DudleyDocker]

All fair points mate. The problem is, I don't think many are seriously suggesting just giving them the one game as a sub for a taste. I think most are arguing for them to stay in once they get in, in this thread it is at the expense of Suban.

Yeah, fair call. I'm certainly not advocating wholesale changes, just getting at least a few games into these kids before we are forced to play them at a time that might not be opportune.

If we are TOO conservative and afraid to risk young players we will get bitten at some point. I'd rather blood them gradually, sparingly and in the games we think they have the most chance of success.

And without wanting to flog it to death, I reckon a few people will be very surprised when they see what Connor Blakely and Lachie Weller can bring to the mix. Blakely is a tireless workhorse and a ball magnet, Lachie has X-factor by the bucketload. Main reason I joined Peel this year was to watch this exciting batch of kids come through and I think they are the equal of some dreaftees going really well at AFL level.

Fingers crossed we don't NEED to play them but give them a run anyway

 

[DudleyDocker]

I hate to beat a dead horse here but I am pretty sure our club hierarchy rates D. Pearce in our top 10 players, despite the nonstop complaints of people on this board. He is about as likely to be dropped as Mundy or Hill.

I have no complaints about D Pearce at all and have never criticised him, but giving someone a rest at some point in a long season might just keep him at the top of his game when we need him at the pointy end of the season.

Dropping someone does not have to be a punishment or a signal that he is not highly valued.

If we had any decent backup KPPs I'd be advocating resting Macca, Pav and Johnno (oops, too late). I'd love to see Sandi get a rest - we have multiple backup options and he is already showing signs of wear.

 

[clogged]

I think this thread has run its course. When it was started, there was a general belief that Suban would come good, that he would reach the heights many believed he had in him ("future captain", "next Luke Hodge"). It's now apparent that it wasn't injury or interrupted preseasons that held him back, but that he was never very good in the first place.

I don't think it's really fair to keep bumping it each time he has an ordinary game or the team loses. He wasn't great on Friday but he played closer to his level than many others. The fact of the matter is, his level is not that high, but Ross rates what he does. And he's having his best season ever too, so if he played 21 games last year, I don't see him playing fewer this year.

Seppo riteo.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Yeah, fair call. I'm certainly not advocating wholesale changes, just getting at least a few games into these kids before we are forced to play them at a time that might not be opportune

I agree with all of that mate. Thing is, if we get to the point where they need to come into the 22, our flag chances are shot anyway. We won't have the cattle out there to compete with Sydney or Hawthorn if our midfield depth is tested to that extent.

 

[Seppo]

clogged yes this thread has run it's course.

However, I'm going to leave it open while the discussion is still on topic. Going to lock it if it keeps on getting bumped every good/bad game of his.

 

[salim malik]

Agree, but I think we have too many "role players" who don't have the ability to adapt and change when things are not working.

Suban knows one way to play and if that's working he's fine - if it's not working he has no other gear to go to.

No right side, one paced and no tricks in the bag. Hopefully he will be superseded at some point.

All this maybe true but the fact remains if his KPI's are being ticked and he abides to the team structures he will stay in the side.

 

[salim malik]

All fair points mate. The problem is, I don't think many are seriously suggesting just giving them the one game as a sub for a taste. I think most are arguing for them to stay in once they get in, in this thread it is at the expense of Suban. I reckon the same people bagging Suban for his numbers and performances would pump up Blakeley and Weller for lesser numbers and worse performances. I would be chuffed as anybody if they did get a chance and blew us away with their performances, but **** me that is a huge punt to take with where we are trying to get to. A taste against absolute bottom rung teams might be a worthwhile investment, but at the expense of Mzungu, MDB, Sheridan, Crozier etc I find that hard to understand. All four would make more sense to replace Suban than those two.

The old man reports back on all the Peel games, he reckons none of the trio are there yet. I am a regular training watcher, hardly notice them to be honest and they are regulars in the Peel contingent at training and that would suggest the match committee aren't as confident just yet as some of us posters. Langdon last time I was down at training wasn't even involved in match simulation at all, was watching with a couple of the other Peel blokes with Simon Lloyd explaining everything to them and telling them what to watch out for while the majority of the group did their thing.

Problem with playing a rookie as a sub is if somebody goes down early the plan backfires, they will play a lot more game time than Ross and the MC would be anticipating. Another backfire is if we require a lift or impact from our sub to replace somebody stinking it up, we are unlikely to receive the necessary impact from a debutant.

I personally reckon Ballard should get a gig before either, talk about somebody who has done his time and has consistently performed in the midfield at Peel for a couple years now, surely his turn comes first? Is in fact more of a like for like to replace Suban than either Blakely or Weller.

I couldn't make a sound argument for replacing a D.Pearce, Sheridan for the sake of bringing Weller in for a taste, it doesn't really make much sense to me. Drop a bloke who is performing to try an untested kid for the sake of exposure? Am I missing something?

Thing about RTB's gameplan is that every player is a cog in the machine. To get Suban out for those young blokes, people are suggesting shifting around half a dozen players. So that would result in lesser cogs in each of those positions for the sake of replacing one cog in Suban. I would have thought this would mess dramatically with our structures, more so than the occasional stinker from Subes.

This is all spot on.Great post.

 

[DudleyDocker]

I agree with all of that mate. Thing is, if we get to the point where they need to come into the 22, our flag chances are shot anyway. We won't have the cattle out there to compete with Sydney or Hawthorn if our midfield depth is tested to that extent.

OK, don't really disagree either mate, I think I'll leave that one alone - we're not really solving the world's problems are we

I'll just have to keep going to Mandurah to see the young talent play.

 

[FreoRicci]

I hate to beat a dead horse here but I am pretty sure our club hierarchy rates D. Pearce in our top 10 players, despite the nonstop complaints of people on this board. He is about as likely to be dropped as Mundy or Hill.

But the people on here don't realise is D. Pearce is freaking essential when Hill/Fyfe gets tagged or are quiet. All he needs to to perform on the big stage which many people still hold him accountable for. Stephen Hill this year has been pretty ordinary so he's lucky tbh.

 

[Dormammu]

Suban's value to the team may be explained by him being a left-footed inside mid. Hawthorn and the Swans are the two dominant teams of the last few years and it's been a characteristic of their midfields (Jack, Hannerberry, Hodge and Mitchell's left hoof is better than most players' right). There's not really that many others with mature bodies going around (Priddis, Pendlebury, Bontompelli, Viney, Heppell spring to mind).

It doesn't of itself guarantee a spot on the team but I can see how such a player can provide a midfield with more options at stoppages.

 

[clogged]

That would only make sense if Suban got anywhere near the possessions those listed players did.

The continual comparison to Hodge is hilarious. Yes, they are both left footed. That's it.

 

[DudleyDocker]

That would only make sense if Suban got anywhere near the possessions those listed players did.

The continual comparison to Hodge is hilarious. Yes, they are both left footed. That's it.

Four letter first names and five letter surnames. Almost exactly the same players.

 

[UFO Tatsu]

Opinions aside, I did LOL when Suban's name was mentioned in the "most improved" article on afl.com.au along with Neale and C Pearce.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Opinions aside, I did LOL when Suban's name was mentioned in the "most improved" article on afl.com.au along with Neale and C Pearce.

Yeah I saw that and had a little chuckle about this thread myself

 

[clogged]

I think it goes without saying that he's better than last year, while still not being much good.

 

[Dormammu]

That would only make sense if Suban got anywhere near the possessions those listed players did.

The continual comparison to Hodge is hilarious. Yes, they are both left footed. That's it.

Thanks for reinforcing my point - yes, they are indeed left footers and citing the far superior Hodge in isolation is a feeble attempt at building a straw man.

As for his numbers, it should be cause for discomfort if they were high, for the simple reason that it is Fyfe, Neale, Barlow and to a lesser extent Mundy who are the primary targets of our dominant ruck duo, and their numbers regularly reflect this. Look at how the mids set up at stoppages and you'll see that his role is primarily to provide blocks for fellow mids, stymie the opposition third man up, provide defence when we occasionally lose the ruck contest, and be a first receiver to distribute into the corridor those times when a left footer is best placed and when Pearce or Hill are resting or positioned elsewhere.

This thread has run its course

Churlishly denigrating Suban's improvement as reported on the AFL website not only downplays a writer with greater access to players' and coaches' opinions than you or I but by implication those players left unchosen in lieu of Suban such as Mzungu, Crozier et al.

So this thread has indeed run its course. Seppo a backfire tag if you will.

 

[Banker]

The most improved article can be misleading as seen by Suban been listed. Isn't that hard to improve when your team mates beside you have lifted their game and your previous benchmark was so low.

 

[Grandstan]

 

[clogged]

Thanks for reinforcing my point - yes, they are indeed left footers and citing the far superior Hodge in isolation is a feeble attempt at building a straw man.

As for his numbers, it should be cause for discomfort if they were high, for the simple reason that it is Fyfe, Neale, Barlow and to a lesser extent Mundy who are the primary targets of our dominant ruck duo, and their numbers regularly reflect this. Look at how the mids set up at stoppages and you'll see that his role is primarily to provide blocks for fellow mids, stymie the opposition third man up, provide defence when we occasionally lose the ruck contest, and be a first receiver to distribute into the corridor those times when a left footer is best placed and when Pearce or Hill are resting or positioned elsewhere.

Strawman? You made the argument and gave the examples. You say he is in middle because he has a left foot (why does this mean anything?) then cite other inside midfielders with left feet that gather huge possession numbers, then say it's a good thing he's nothing like Hodge or Mitchell. Yes, definitely a good thing that Fremantle has a starting centre square mid that averages 13 possessions with a low disposal efficiency and high clanger rate.

Have Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong carried such players?

Churlishly denigrating Suban's improvement as reported on the AFL website not only downplays a writer with greater access to players' and coaches' opinions than you or I but by implication those players left unchosen in lieu of Suban such as Mzungu, Crozier et al.

What nonsense. The coaches have gotten it wrong in the past and will continue to. That the article appeared on the AFL website gives it no greater meaning that if it was written by Mark Robinson.

So this thread has indeed run its course. Seppo a backfire tag if you will.

Haha, Jesus. What a tosser. A backfire tag because of an AFL article. Consider me shamed.

 

[Dormammu]

Strawman? You made the argument and gave the examples.

Which you chose to elaborate upon as a means of avoiding the major premise, being that the best teams have at least one left foot midfielder.

You say he is in middle because he has a left foot (why does this mean anything?) then cite other inside midfielders with left feet that gather huge possession numbers, then say it's a good thing he's nothing like Hodge or Mitchell.

Some nice deliberate misquotes there. Getting desperate Gravy? Stoppages is what I wrote. Likewise the Hodge or Mitchell references. I talked to their possession numbers, not their comparative abilities, two separate and distinct subjects. Is it so hard a concept for you to grasp? That high numbers for one player can actually mean a team's systems have failed? Look at the stats of some of Melbourne's defenders if you need further enlightenment.

As for the plaintive "why does this mean anything?" go back and re-read my post.

Yes, definitely a good thing that Fremantle has a starting centre square mid that averages 13 possessions with a low disposal efficiency and high clanger rate.

Strawmen, misquotes and now ignorance. A deadly cocktail to say the least. Our midfield at centre square is chosen predominately from Fyfe, Neal, Mundy and Barlow. Suban does rotate through there occasionally (along with cameos from Hill, D. Pearce and Pav), but Clancy Pearce might well be ahead of him this year if only for the R1 tagging role he had on Boak.

Have Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong carried such players?

Stating the opinion that Suban is a passenger as if it were a fact does not make it any less an opinion. Nice try though.

What nonsense. The coaches have gotten it wrong in the past and will continue to. That the article appeared on the AFL website gives it no greater meaning that if it was written by Mark Robinson.

Yes, yes, the coaches are wrong, journos who actually talk to the coaching staff are wrong, but never ever you old son, eh?

Consider me shamed.

I'd feel guilty taking any credit when you did so much of the hard yards all on your own. Which I suppose means you'll cut and run and put together a new elias?

 

[clogged]

Which you chose to elaborate upon as a means of avoiding the major premise, being that the best teams have at least one left foot midfielder.

You mean like Stephen Hill, who has collected more contested possessions and clearances this season than "stoppage left-footed midfielder" Nick Suban. You are declaring Suban has a role that belongs to someone else already and who is better at it.

That high numbers for one player can actually mean a team's systems have failed? Look at the stats of some of Melbourne's defenders if you need further enlightenment.

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking midfielders, right? Not defenders. False equivalence.

You have claimed that he is at stoppages because he has a left foot, and yet have nothing to back up that claim. The only thing in your arsenal is to draw comparisons with better footballers at other teams. He isn't even the best left footed clearance midfielder in his own team.

Our midfield at centre square is chosen predominately from Fyfe, Neal, Mundy and Barlow. Suban does rotate through there occasionally (along with cameos from Hill, D. Pearce and Pav), but Clancy Pearce might well be ahead of him this year if only for the R1 tagging role he had on Boak.

This is crap. Suban has more appearances at centre bouncedowns than Barlow this year.

The rest of your post was nonsense. Stick to the subject rather that trying to make a personal argument that you will lose.