No.1 - what are we picking on here?

[richcogs]

Kreuzer is only 199 cm BTW and was shown up by Bellchambers in the under championships in his tap work. Hampson > Kreuzer in the tap work area, but hey I like Hampson a lot, he will be a gun! D. Simpson though will be the best tap work ruckman in the league in 4 years time! 207 cm, athletic and strong, MARK MY WORDS!

 

[HBF]

In your opinion HBF which rucks worth taking are still likely to be around with our next picks?

The one that I have been keen on all year is Dawson Simpson. A 205cm ruckman that can also play forward as well. Great mobility for a guy his size, and also adequate below his knees. I'd snap him up at #36 if he was still there.

Two others would be Andrew Renton and Dean Putt, both of whom would be there at #46 IMO.

If we got Cotchin, we'd only need a ruckman to give us a contest, becuase as soon as the ball is on the ground, we'd beat every other midfield in the AFL, including Geelongs.

 

[HBF]

That's where we differ HBF...i see all the other ruckmen in the draft as so speculative that you may end up even wasting a pick on them whereas somebody like a John McCarthy for example might make it. As much as I love Cotchin and still rank him at #1 (just), I just wouldn't take any of the other ruckmen in the draft.

Gilly, you can't use the same argument to prove one point, and then disprove another. Taking someone later in the draft means that they are all speculative, so you really can't differentiate between a ruckman (Simpson, Renton and Putt) and a midfielder/smaller type (McCarthy, Petrenko and McGinnity)

You select someone on what you have seen during the year, and how they go at DC. I would have no hesitation taking Simpson at #36 or Renton/Putt at #68. None at all.

 

[Salaryman]

Gilly, you can't use the same argument to prove one point, and then disprove another. Taking someone later in the draft means that they are all speculative, so you really can't differentiate between a ruckman (Simpson, Renton and Putt) and a midfielder/smaller type (McCarthy, Petrenko and McGinnity)

You select someone on what you have seen during the year, and how they go at DC. I would have no hesitation taking Simpson at #36 or Renton/Putt at #68. None at all.

I can use the argument...I''m not arguinig on type I am arguing purely on who i believe will make the most impact at AFL level....it's just theat when compiling my list, the vast majority of blokes around the third/fourth round mark are smalls.....

and again that's where we differ, I'd back in a McCarthy to forge some sort of AFL career well and above a Renton.

Don't get too hung up on types, I am talking an individual to individual merit basis, I can't fit any of the other talls in my top 50, esp. if Kreuzer is taken at #1.

 

[HBF]

I can use the argument...I''m not arguinig on type I am arguing purely on who i believe will make the most impact at AFL level....it's just theat when compiling my list, the vast majority of blokes around the third/fourth round mark are smalls.....

and again that's where we differ, I'd back in a McCarthy to forge some sort of AFL career well and above a Renton.

Don't get too hung up on types, I am talking an individual to individual merit basis, I can't fit any of the other talls in my top 50, esp. if Kreuzer is taken at #1.

We discussed this on Saturday, and we all agreed. Taking Kreuzer at #1 means we draw a line through guys like Bellchambers, Simspon, Renton, Putt and Sullivan. As you even said, if McEvoy was still there at 36, which he won't, you'd draft him, and delist Cloke and Ackland at the end of 2008.

I know you don't rate any other ruckmen in the draft, however, I am saying that after about 30 in this years draft, pretty much every selection is going to be speculative. What I have seen at junior level shows me that Simpson, in particular, could be a fantastic player at AFL level. He certainly has all of the physical tools to make it, and his ruck technique is pretty sound as well.

Guys like Renton and Putt would need a bit more work, but they are no less of a chance to make it than a midfielder that would be selected that late as well.

 

[Amers]

HBF, who is more likely to win a ruck contest between Kreuzer and Simpson in 4 years time in your opinion?

 

[Salaryman]

We discussed this on Saturday, and we all agreed. Taking Kreuzer at #1 means we draw a line through guys like Bellchambers, Simspon, Renton, Putt and Sullivan. As you even said, if McEvoy was still there at 36, which he won't, you'd draft him, and delist Cloke and Ackland at the end of 2008.

I know you don't rate any other ruckmen in the draft, however, I am saying that after about 30 in this years draft, pretty much every selection is going to be speculative. What I have seen at junior level shows me that Simpson, in particular, could be a fantastic player at AFL level. He certainly has all of the physical tools to make it, and his ruck technique is pretty sound as well.

Guys like Renton and Putt would need a bit more work, but they are no less of a chance to make it than a midfielder that would be selected that late as well.

Again, this is where we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Pie_squasher]

At 200cm How the hell is he going to compete with some of the monsters out there which seem to represent the way the new game is progressing.
"He'll grow" I hear you say "he'll learn how to use his body to overcome..."
"his spring will allow him to...."

Well maybe maybe not. This is not the reason to recruit him though.

yes he might grow, learn the technique to compete etc but surely that is not how we should be assessing him. Too many if buts and maybes. Fact is he is far from being a shoe in to be a dominant ruckman.

So if we take that out of the equation we are left with a KPP with a big tank and big heart. Sound familiar? Didnt we just get rid of one of those?

With Cotchin in the side it is the tipping point for our midfield. He gives us one more dominant option that surely must take us into the elite midfields of the competition.

Ditch the Kreuzer go the Cotch

Gotta be able to runb as well as ruck.....Kreuzer for me. Not sure I've sen a player 200cm tall that has been touted as a ruckman, KPP or midfielder. Absolute gun!!!

 

[HBF]

HBF, who is more likely to win a ruck contest between Kreuzer and Simpson in 4 years time in your opinion?

Given that Simpson is already 6cm taller than Kreuzer, I would say Simpson. However, it is Kreuzers around-the-ground work that sets him apart from everybody else. Kreuzer will give you a contest every single time, and he can go forward and just be as effective.

It's like saying who would win a ruck contest between Sandilands and Fraser? Sandilands becuase of his height, yet Fraser is better around the ground.

 

[HBF]

Again, this is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I can live with that Mr. Gilly.

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that ruckmen are so overrated. They do not win us games.

If we had a classy, skillfull midfield who could read the play well, and win the tap downs from opposition ruckmen, then all we need is a ruckman to give us a contest. We have Hampson, who I think really will be a more-than-capable ruckman for us. He is fast, good below his knees, good overhead, good at tap outs. We have Aisake who is still learning, (as is Hampson) however surely he can rotate with Hampson. We also have Jacobs who is Dempsey's love child, who is great at the tap outs, however he is very slow around the ground.

I'm willing to put faith in Hampson and Aisake, next year onwards, because this year Cloke will be no.1.

I really just think ruckmen are overrated, and a player as fast, as skilful, as footy-smart and aware as Cotchin would be greater value to us than another ruckmen in the same mould as Hampson and Aisake.

 

[XXX KINGS]

I'm sure Collingwood and St Kilda supporters will attest to that!

 

[marcmurphy3]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that ruckmen are so overrated. They do not win us games.

If we had a classy, skillfull midfield who could read the play well, and win the tap downs from opposition ruckmen, then all we need is a ruckman to give us a contest. We have Hampson, who I think really will be a more-than-capable ruckman for us. He is fast, good below his knees, good overhead, good at tap outs. We have Aisake who is still learning, (as is Hampson) however surely he can rotate with Hampson. We also have Jacobs who is Dempsey's love child, who is great at the tap outs, however he is very slow around the ground.

I'm willing to put faith in Hampson and Aisake, next year onwards, because this year Cloke will be no.1.

I really just think ruckmen are overrated, and a player as fast, as skilful, as footy-smart and aware as Cotchin would be greater value to us than another ruckmen in the same mould as Hampson and Aisake.

I actually agree with you.

Good statistic to back this point:

A couple of years ago St Kilda led the league in clearances with Ackland as there no.1 ruckman.

 

[Crippa#9]

I agree ruckmen are overrated. but if you are 200cm tall and can play like a midfielder that's pretty enticing. I've seen both of them play a couple of times and i agree with most people's opinion, Cotchin looks as if he's the better footballer, but Kreuzer will be the 'unstoppable' big man of the competition in 5 years time. I'm gonna be happy either way....

 

[XXX KINGS]

I actually agree with you.

Good statistic to back this point:

A couple of years ago St Kilda led the league in clearances with Ackland as there no.1 ruckman.

You don't think they could have led by even more if they actually had an A grade ruckman?

As far as I can recall StKilda didn't win a premiership that season either.

Generally I'd agree an elite midfielder is more important than a gun ruckman however when you already have quite a few very talented and young midfielders a ruckman is more valuable.

Kreuzer isn't in the same mould as Hampson and Aisake - He isn't an athlete learning how to play football, he is a footballer first and foremost.

 

[Quazza]

I read someone's post that really made me thinkg about the whole K v C argument - many people are saying that Carlton will pick Kreuzer.

Is that because he is the best available talent, or is it because he is the best pick for what we need? Why does Carlton supposedly have him locked in the bag??

If we are only going on what we need, then that is a waste of a number 1 pick. We should always go with the best talent there is. If we waste a no.1 pick on Kreuzer and he turns out to be like Josh Fraser, and Cotchin turns out to be better than Murphy, then i'll be disappointed we picked on need instead of talent.

I want someone who can win us games off his own boot, someone who will provide some excitement. For me Kreuzer just seems the safe option. Stuff going with a safe option, lets go with the player that brings the most excitement and matchwinning ability. Give me the person that is the best available talent, not the one we need the most.

My question is why are people so sure that Carlton will go Kreuzer? Is it need, or is it because he is the best? I have a feeling it's the need factor, which si wrong to waste a no.1 pick on IMO

in the 83 draft, the Portland Trailblazers picked Sam Bowie cos they already had a shooting guard. the Chicago Bulls picked some dude named Michael Jordan with the next pick

when picking high in drafts, always go for the most talented player

 

[SA Blue]

I actually agree with you.

Good statistic to back this point:

A couple of years ago St Kilda led the league in clearances with Ackland as there no.1 ruckman.

But the teams that won the flags had good to great rucks. St Kilda didn't believe in Rucks and it cost them big time.

 

[windows]

The one that I have been keen on all year is Dawson Simpson. A 205cm ruckman that can also play forward as well. Great mobility for a guy his size, and also adequate below his knees. I'd snap him up at #36 if he was still there.

Two others would be Andrew Renton and Dean Putt, both of whom would be there at #46 IMO.

If we got Cotchin, we'd only need a ruckman to give us a contest, becuase as soon as the ball is on the ground, we'd beat every other midfield in the AFL, including Geelongs.

I...I.....I love you HBF. You are my hero. Gilly, go **** yourself.

 

[Salaryman]

I...I.....I love you HBF. You are my hero. Gilly, go **** yourself.

 

[windows]

in the 83 draft, the Portland Trailblazers picked Sam Bowie cos they already had a shooting guard. the Chicago Bulls picked some dude named Michael Jordan with the next pick

when picking high in drafts, always go for the most talented player

That's gold. Except....we are about to pick Sam Bowie???

 

[TGR]

in the 83 draft, the Portland Trailblazers picked Sam Bowie cos they already had a shooting guard. the Chicago Bulls picked some dude named Michael Jordan with the next pick

when picking high in drafts, always go for the most talented player

Clyde Drexler was a pretty bloody good reason to pass on Jordan and if it wern't for injury Bowie would have been great. Remember Olajuwan was picked before Jordan too and won his share of championships with probably a lesser supporting cast.

 

[Salaryman]

That's gold. Except....we are about to pick Sam Bowie???

MK is a better power forward than Sam Bowie

 

[HBF]

I...I.....I love you HBF. You are my hero. Gilly, go **** yourself.

Yeah Gilly, go f^*k yourself!

 

[windows]

Clyde Drexler was a pretty bloody good reason to pass on Jordan and if it wern't for injury Bowie would have been great. Remember Olajuwan was picked before Jordan too and won his share of championships with probably a lesser supporting cast.

Just clean the needle before you pass it to me please.

 

[TGR]

Just clean the needle before you pass it to me please.

I just find it sad that I'm old enough to remember the careers of those guys.