Even worse. 6 years ago we had just played a final.
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Mega Thread Official 2012 Draft discussion thread: All drafts complete.
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ThePuppetMaster
Yay
If Neeld wants to target a KPF this draft - then it's clear we try to get Hogan.
He's just that much better than the other KPF's in this draft.
Eth
For sale
But with Clark doing so well, Fitzpatrick looking okay, Watts who could very well switch back to the forward line and Cook who you never know with, you'd doubt that he will.
Macrae, Viney/Toumpas/Wines/Mayes and Kennedy and I'm happy.
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It was that last game in 09' where we pretty much controlled the margin against the saints that I was getting really excited about. So was Bruce and co actually.
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CowboyFromHell
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But with Clark doing so well, Fitzpatrick looking okay, Watts who could very well switch back to the forward line and Cook who you never know with, you'd doubt that he will.
Macrae, Viney/Toumpas/Wines/Mayes and Kennedy and I'm happy.
Watts, Fitzy and Cook are no sure things for the forward line - Watts may stay down back, Fitzy has done nothing at AFL level and Cook may not be on the list at the end of the year. I'm not keen on trading a high pick for Hogan but I can see the logic behind it.
Unless he discovers some inner mongrel, and a bit of strength, I'd say that's a lock.
Bluelegs
Content Enthusiast
At least we have a young list with potential. Six years ago we had an aging list who were past it and no talented youth save Nathan Jones plus $5 million in debt. Courtesy of Neale Daniher and our insipid management, we've got the management part worked out and our list isn't as bad as it's rated, certainly a lot of dead wood to cut out though, plus a coach who's actually willing to make the tough calls.
True, that is a big step forward. Now we just have to hope he makes the right calls. But we won't know that for at least another year.
Blackas87
Brownlow Medallist
Yes it does, the bidding process is done before trade week, we offer them now pick 3 which no one can beat. If they bid on Viney and force us to use pick 3 on him then we can't trade pick 3 to them. What would GWS prefer, forcing us to take Viney with it or having the pick for themselves.
Eth
For sale
Blackas87
Brownlow Medallist
Hogan isn't even considered the best KPF in next years graft, so trading away such an early pick for him seems silly.
Knightmare are rated Martin as a potential top 5 pick if in this draft, and Hogan only a top 10. I say take the best availible this year and worry about Hogan next year where by the balance of probabilities is we will have another top 5.
Knightmare are rated Martin as a potential top 5 pick if in this draft, and Hogan only a top 10. I say take the best availible this year and worry about Hogan next year where by the balance of probabilities is we will have another top 5.
Blackas87
Brownlow Medallist
Pick 3 and pick 13 as one trade for Martin and Hogan, we will still have pick 4 and get Viney at pick 26.
Instead of taking Viney at 3, we still have pick 4, and some other knuckleheads at pick 13 and 26. Hogan and Martin are better rated than picks 13 and 26
I hope GWS and GC don't bid on Viney and we will take 2 of Toumpas, O'rouke, Grundy or Wines but I just cant see them not bidding on him so i think we'll have to look at other scenarios
lanky_wes
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If we are to pick up Grundy then we have another tall forward option anywayBut with Clark doing so well, Fitzpatrick looking okay, Watts who could very well switch back to the forward line and Cook who you never know with, you'd doubt that he will.
Macrae, Viney/Toumpas/Wines/Mayes and Kennedy and I'm happy.
yes. but F/S bidding is prior to trade week. Meaning we cant trade P3 to avoid taking Viney with it.
The problem with my logic is that someone will bid on the MD picks and Hogan wont be i the 2013 draft pool, so we cant take him with the likely P3-6 we'll have.
Blackas87
Brownlow Medallist
We can still offer pick 3 and 13 before trade week and before the bidding process, if GWS want our offer they won't bid on Viney, GWS want Grundy and they'll get him at pick 3
ThePuppetMaster
Yay
This is my view - it'd be a waste of time going to the mini-draft IF we want a midfielder.
Now, despite what some might think - Neeld clearly wants another KPP who can impact games, we're unlikely to get that through a trade at the moment.
IMO Fitzpatrick won't make it as a second tall target, as a 2nd ruck?? Sure.
His marking and kicking aren't good enough, and given his technique I'm not sure they ever will be.
Cook is more suited to CHB in my opinion (if he gets another chance, which I hope he does) - but to be honest Jai Sheahan has shown a great amount in that position this year, as a rookie.
Neeld wants Watts to develop into a utility - this has been pretty clear all year; he'll spend time as a key forward, but I wouldn't think it'll be permanent.
Hogan is there for the taking, and with a tall a full year developing in the VFL can only be a good thing - we know how long it can take talls to come along and the odds are that if we were to pick Hogan next year he would be further behind in his development than if we take him a year early.
If we want Hogan we take him early, it's as simple as that.
I know we're all impatient for success, but we're getting Viney plus another good quality mid out of this draft - we don't want to put all our eggs in the mid basket at the draft table.
Jones, Sylvia, Trengove, Grimes is the nucleus of a talented midfield group.
Now, despite what some might think - Neeld clearly wants another KPP who can impact games, we're unlikely to get that through a trade at the moment.
IMO Fitzpatrick won't make it as a second tall target, as a 2nd ruck?? Sure.
His marking and kicking aren't good enough, and given his technique I'm not sure they ever will be.
Cook is more suited to CHB in my opinion (if he gets another chance, which I hope he does) - but to be honest Jai Sheahan has shown a great amount in that position this year, as a rookie.
Neeld wants Watts to develop into a utility - this has been pretty clear all year; he'll spend time as a key forward, but I wouldn't think it'll be permanent.
Hogan is there for the taking, and with a tall a full year developing in the VFL can only be a good thing - we know how long it can take talls to come along and the odds are that if we were to pick Hogan next year he would be further behind in his development than if we take him a year early.
If we want Hogan we take him early, it's as simple as that.
I know we're all impatient for success, but we're getting Viney plus another good quality mid out of this draft - we don't want to put all our eggs in the mid basket at the draft table.
Jones, Sylvia, Trengove, Grimes is the nucleus of a talented midfield group.
Eth
For sale
Even if it's a handshake agreement, you're proposing going to GWS and saying 'here's pick 3 for a mini-draft pick so that you don't bid on Jack Viney'.
Whether or not they agree to it, they still have full right to bid on Viney despite whatever word is discussed before father-son bidding. As do the Suns.
A handshake agreement pre-father-son bidding saying 'don't bid on Viney' is draft tampering. And nothing less. And it won't happen despite how determined you are for it to go through.
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CowboyFromHell
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Fair points there mate, agree with all of that. Just a shame that the results on the field haven't seemed to improve all that much but, like many here, I have faith in Neeld and what the club is aiming to achieve and how they want to achieve it.
Blackas87
Brownlow Medallist
Yes they still have the right to bid on Viney but if they do they can't get pick 3, and yes I'm aware the Gold Coast can still bid on him, if they do then yes the trade agreement would fall through.
It is not a handshake agreement saying don't bid on Viney, It's a trade agreement, it's not breaking any draft tampering rules. And most likely this won't happen, i'm just putting out ideas.
Eth
For sale
This is a conditional 'don't bid on Viney and we'll give you pick three' agreement. And, as it's prior to the trade period, it can be nothing more than a handshake. Which, as I've pointed out, is illegal.
I shouldn't have to define draft tampering to tell you that 'most likely won't happen' is one of the bigger stretches I've seen on this forum...
ThePuppetMaster
Yay
No it's not - it's a 'we want to use pick 3 for the mini-draft' deal....
If they accept the deal they won't bid for Viney; we shouldn't even have to mention him in discussions.
If we say 'don't bid on Viney so we can use pick three to trade with you' - then it's draft tampering.
The AFL loves semantics.
ThePuppetMaster
Yay
My point of view is this;
We let them know we're keen on securing a mini-draft pick, possibly two - they then decide whether it's worth making us spend one of the picks they might be able to receive.
That's all.
And that's not draft tampering.
We let them know we're keen on securing a mini-draft pick, possibly two - they then decide whether it's worth making us spend one of the picks they might be able to receive.
That's all.
And that's not draft tampering.
CowboyFromHell
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Bloody hell are we getting technical here.
We either get Viney with Pick 3 or or Pick 26. Simple. There won't be any discussions prior to this and no agreements. GC will either want to be pricks and nominate Viney or they don't and we get lucky. All this "agreement" stuff simply won't happen so it isn't worth getting your knickers in a twist over.
We either get Viney with Pick 3 or or Pick 26. Simple. There won't be any discussions prior to this and no agreements. GC will either want to be pricks and nominate Viney or they don't and we get lucky. All this "agreement" stuff simply won't happen so it isn't worth getting your knickers in a twist over.
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