Research Origin of Australian Football's Gaelic Origin Myth [+Marngrook]

[RedV3x]

Given he coached an Aboriginal cricket side, and was definitely associated with aboriginals for some time in public,

Teaching aboriginals the English game is one thing saying we benefitted from aboriginals would've been a total no-no.

 

[The_Wookie]

I don't have dates in front of me but i suspect the book was written before this info became public.

The Australian Game of Football was released in 2006. Flanagans article on Wills was 2007. The only passage concering football is the very last paragraph, Flanagan apparently doesnt feel its worth discussion.

For the sake of the record, I asked Lawton if there was any story in his family about Wills playing Aboriginal football as a kid at Lexington, the family property outside Ararat. Lawton replied — and I reprint his reply here with his permission — "My mother was told by her father, Horace, Tom's brother, that Tom played some form of football with Aboriginal kids. We have no documents to prove this, but there is a family story that they kicked a possum skin sewn up in the shape of a ball.

 

[RedV3x]

never saw fit to mention it.

Exactly. They never "saw fit" to mention it.
They also say fit not to mention a lot of other things.
You cannot selectively dismiss or assume anything.

 

[The_Wookie]

Just amazing how people can claim that Wills was not influenced by Aboriginal games, Marngrook was not codified, it was no doubt played under a variety of rules amongst different tribes, it may have been played different every time it was played, who doesnt remember as kids kicking a footy or playing cricket and just makeing your own rules up with mates as you go along, it is just a matter of what % he was influenced by Aboriginal culture as he was influenced by his time at Rugby, his time living in Victoria, his time living in Collingwood, by the people he met, the jobs he did, the pubs he drank ate etc etc etc.

Just because there is no WRITTEN word affiliating him to Marngrook, does not mean it did not happen.

The fact that no-one on the committee with him - and Wills for all the credit he gets - was far from the most influential member of the group that put the rules together - mentions this when discussing the rules examined in either 1858, 1859 1860, 1866 or 1872, and the fact that Wills himself put forward rugby rules according to Hammersly. Plus the fact that Wills himself never writes about it at all in his known letters.

Oddly enough, the article in the book agrees with you - aboriginal ideas werent necessarily popular at the time - however the book notes that this would be an additional reason that Wills wouldnt put forward anything he got from the games he played when he was 10 years old with local aboriginals.

 

[The_Wookie]

Exactly. They never "saw fit" to mention it.
They also say fit not to mention a lot of other things.
You cannot selectively dismiss or assume anything.

You cant invent something out of thin air either. Its the difference between recorded history and folklore.

 

[Garlic muncher]

The Australian Game of Football was released in 2006. Flanagans article on Wills was 2007. The only passage concering football is the very last paragraph, Flanagan apparently doesnt feel its worth discussion.

Well, he did take the old bloke to the MCC and retold the story .....


..... It is at this point that I need to digress and tell you about a meeting I had several years ago at the Melbourne Club with an elderly gentleman named Lawton Wills Cooke. Lawton’s grandfather, Horace Wills, was one of Tom Wills’ younger brothers. After Tom committed suicide in 1880, Horace Wills was one of the few people to be recorded saying anything sympathetic or loving about him. Horace said Tom was a wild reckless individual but one of the best people he’d ever met and that it was not in his nature to disappoint people. Horace Wills’s daughter was Lawton Wills Cooke’s mother. She told Lawton, he told me, and I'm telling you, that Horace Wills said that when his brother Tom was a boy at Moyston, outside Ararat, he played Aboriginal football with the local blacks. He also said they used a possum skin stuffed with charcoal and wrapped with sinew. With Lawton by my side I addressed a meeting of the Melbourne Club and told them as much. With Lawton by my side I also said as much to the AGM of the Old Melburnians Football Club, calling upon them to bear witness to Lawton’s testimony

http://australianfootball.com/articles/view/Why+Tom+Wills+is+an+Australian+legend+like+Ned+Kelly/133

 

[SpareTowel]

The Australian Game of Football was released in 2006. Flanagans article on Wills was 2007. The only passage concering football is the very last paragraph, Flanagan apparently doesnt feel its worth discussion.

T. S. Wills Cooke, Wills family member and author of the Wills family biography, The Currency Lad, strongly denies any connection between Marn Grook and Australian football. From page 180 of The Currency Lad:

"Flanagan once said that he had been told by Lawton that Tom played a game with the local boys using stuffed possum skins but when I asked him he said that that was not the case. Thus we find history rewritten to suit 'political correctness', there is no doubt that the Indigenous people played a form of football but to link that to the formalization and codification of Australian Football is a bridge too far."

 

[SpareTowel]

Something like that can be seen to be mentioned in the family environment. The fact that it wasn't reported in the public arena is quite understandable and it would be quite reasonable for Wills to distance himself from any aboriginal associations in the company of gentry by simply not mentioning it.

Then how do you explain the case of Wills' contemporary, Frank Allan, aka "The Bowler of A Century", who proudly and repeatedly claimed that he developed his bowling finesse playing with Aboriginal weapons as a child?

 

[Garlic muncher]

T. S. Wills Cooke, Wills family member and author of the Wills family biography, The Currency Lad, strongly denies any connection between Marn Grook and Australian football. From page 180 of The Currency Lad:

"Flanagan once said that he had been told by Lawton that Tom played a game with the local boys using stuffed possum skins but when I asked him he said that that was not the case. Thus we find history rewritten to suit 'political correctness', there is no doubt that the Indigenous people played a form of football but to link that to the formalization and codification of Australian Football is a bridge too far."

So one family member denies any link, yet 3 family members say Wills did play Marn grook.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Then how do you explain the case of Wills' contemporary, Frank Allan, aka "The Bowler of A Century", who proudly and repeatedly claimed that he developed his bowling finesse playing with Aboriginal weapons as a child?

Did he claim he added some rules or developed a new game because he learnt the game from Aboriginals.

 

[SpareTowel]

So one family member denies any link, yet 3 family members say Wills did play Marn grook.

The family member denying the link happens to be the most learned about the family's history, having poured through more original documents and letters than potentially anyone. It's all reproduced in his life's work, The Currency Lad.

Who are these "3 family members"? Lawton and..?

 

[Garlic muncher]

The family member denying the link happens to be the most learned about the family's history, having poured through more original documents and letters than potentially anyone. It's all reproduced in his life's work, The Currency Lad.

Who are these "3 family members"? Lawton and..?

You mean IYO he happens to be the most learned.

Wills brother Horace, who told Lawtons Aunty who then told him - that is 3 people who obviously believe he did.

 

[SpareTowel]

Did he claim he added some rules or developed a new game because he learnt the game from Aboriginals.

No, but Frank did attribute his sporting success to his early Aboriginal connection. It shows that there was no reason for Wills to avoid mentioning an Aboriginal influence due to shame or embarrassment. Frank, Wills' teammate, spoke of Aboriginal influence, and there's no indication that he was treated poorly for it. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[SpareTowel]

You mean IYO he happens to be the most learned.

Wills brother Horace, who told Lawtons Aunty who then told him - that is 3 people who obviously believe he did.

That's apparently what Lawton said. But I've heard that Lawton was prone to exaggeration when it came to Wills. When T. S. Wills Cooke asked Lawton about the Marngrook story, Lawton denied ever mentioning to Flanagan. I doubt Flanagan would make it up, so it shows that Lawton isn't exactly reliable.

 

[Garlic muncher]

No, but Frank did attribute his sporting success to his early Aboriginal connection. It shows that there was no reason for Wills to avoid mentioning an Aboriginal influence due to shame or embarrassment. Frank, Wills' teammate, spoke of Aboriginal influence, and there's no indication that he was treated poorly for it. Quite the opposite actually.

So are you claiming that Wills talent for sport and obvious good co ordination was not due to his early years as the only white child in a district where he spoke the local dialect and played games with natives ?.

Obvious is obvious right!

But to claim he was adding some rules or wanted a similar type game to the ones he played as a child would not enhance ridicule or derision ?.

 

[SpareTowel]

So are you claiming that Wills talent for sport and obvious good co ordination was not due to his early years as the only white child in a district where he spoke the local dialect and played games with natives ?.

Obvious is obvious right!

But to claim he was adding some rules or wanted a similar type game to the ones he played as a child would not enhance ridicule or derision ?.

Tom probably did play games with Aborigines as a child. I'm just saying the claim about the oral history passed down from Tom's brother to Lawton is almost definitely bs. Lawton most likely made it up to please Flanagan, who is very pro-Marngrook.

 

[Garlic muncher]

That's apparently what Lawton said. But I've heard that Lawton was prone to exaggeration when it came to Wills. When T. S. Wills Cooke asked Lawton about the Marngrook story, Lawton denied ever mentioning to Flanagan. I doubt Flanagan would make it up, so it shows that Lawton isn't exactly reliable.

Terry wrote the currency lad not Lawton

 

[SpareTowel]

Terry wrote the currency lad not Lawton

Yeah I know. I'm saying that Terry (T. S. Wills Cooke) wrote The Currency Lad.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Tom probably did play games with Aborigines as a child. I'm just saying the claim about the oral history passed down from Tom's brother to Lawton is almost definitely bs. Lawton most likely made it up to please Flanagan, who is very pro-Marngrook.

So Wills PROBABLY played games with Aboriginal kids, but the oral history is almost DEFINITELY BS

Rightio then!

 

[The_Wookie]

So are you claiming that Wills talent for sport and obvious good co ordination was not due to his early years as the only white child in a district where he spoke the local dialect and played games with natives ?.

Obvious is obvious right!

he was less than TEN years of age. Its far more likely that his talent and co-ordination properly developed at rugby school - where he most definitely did play a form of football.

 

[Garlic muncher]

he was less than TEN years of age. Its far more likely that his talent and co-ordination properly developed at rugby school - where he most definitely did play a form of football.

Whats far more likely is that was already talented and coordinated and advanced for his years due to his childhood, that seems far more likely.

That is precisely why he was so good at sport.

 

[SpareTowel]

So Wills PROBABLY played games with Aboriginal kids, but the oral history is almost DEFINITELY BS

Rightio then!

Yes. People can make up stuff about history.

 

[The_Wookie]

Whats far more likely is that was already talented and coordinated and advanced for his years due to his childhood, that seems far more likely.

That is precisely why he was so good at sport.

at 10? If you say so.

 

[SpareTowel]

Tom was undoubtedly a talented sportsman at Rugby School. However this is an interesting tidbit about his first cricket match in Melbourne:

"He tells me that his first match was played where Batman's-hill once stood, and that he got "a pair of spectacles," and a pair of black eyes also - the latter catastrophe through missing a catch. Thus, like many another man afterwards famous, Tommy Wills was at first a failure."

By this stage he had already spent 6 years in the Grampians, surely enough time to develop sporting coordination and avoid a black eye.

 

[RedV3x]

Then how do you explain the case of Wills' contemporary, Frank Allan, aka "The Bowler of A Century", who proudly and repeatedly claimed that he developed his bowling finesse playing with Aboriginal weapons as a child?

Why would I want to do that when people cannot and will not discuss the basics ?
Why were the first rules so similar to Cambridge rules.
Acknowledgement that first rules were nothing like rugby rules.
Acknowledgement that Wills in all probability would have knowledge of Marngrook.
Acknowledgement that there was a huge Irish immigrant population in Melbourne.