Our Defence

[BringBackCransberg]

It might only be partially relevant to all this "big bodied player", but I thought this was interesting:

NLM: 190cm, 87kg
Pears: 191cm, 91kg
Daniher: 191, 89kg
Hurley: 193cm, 91kg

I dunno if there's technical considerations (e.g. fat vs muscle). But, with those kids at least, perhaps it's more of a confidence/hard-at-it attitude thing that is needed to satisfy what you (Kelvin) think our defence needs? If so, that sort of thing, I reckon, requires AFL experience -- VFL won't do it. And, in the meantime, they're not doing that bad. They beat Freo's attack, they matched Carlton's attack, and, IMO, they almost matched NM's attack. And it's obvious that Pears and Daniher are getting better all the time.

 

[BringBackCransberg]

In terms of big men... we have no one. So we are stuck with Pears and Daniher or Hurley.

What we have to do is add a bit more steel around them. Enter NLM. Exit stage left Quinn.

That pretty much answers my query. Too bad I'm a slow typer at a slow computer.

 

[yaco55]

The bottom line is Ant if you pick Quinn to play AFL at this stage and overlook other guys then you are putting yourself under the microscope.

Knights is a lucky man that the media is baying after Terry's blood right now because if they'd analyse some of Knights work it is not pretty. Lloyd benched for 10 or so mins... wtf?

Picking that young a backline is madness. Picking a guy who has barely played the game is ridiculous.

To support that back line supports the tanking notion. It's a shame it's come to this and most of you now accept it.

I don't know about you but I thought our defensive unit would have been pretty good this year. I assumed Ryder would settle into CHB, Fletch and one of Pears and Daniher would play and NLM and Demspey would provide something.

I thought it was an area that we could settle and have some sort of consistency. Now it's all over the shop again and we seem to be changing tack every few weeks.

EFC have conceded 10 goals on 2 occasions this year.

Good goinf for a young backline.

 

[yaco55]

I reckon that is a solid point.

McVeigh did not seem fully fit or inform on the weekend, perhaps a stink in the backline would be a good way to ease him back to full fitness. He is a great leader, and could take one of Collingwoods dangerous small forwards Didak or Medhurst.

Do people watch games.

Mcveigh during his AFL career has taken 3 weeks to regain his form AFTER incurring a 3 week + injury.

He loses touch quickly when not playing the game.

He is usually okay after missing one maybe 2 games,

 

[yaco55]

I would like a balance.

Pears and Daniher have had a chance to learn of Fletch and Mal last year. They train together and should be learning all the time. Hurley is touted as a very smart footballer.

Throwing them to the wolves like we did on Saturday punishes the team and your chance of winning when you take into account the collective back 6.

If we had a strong backline, say for example we had Hardwick or Solly then throwing two kids in there might be ok. Having 4 of your back 6 inexperienced does not do your chances of winning any good.

The fact is kids develop better around stronger bodies and winning cultures. I'd rather look at winning first, developing kids second because if you get the first one right the second one will happen a lot easier.

Hardwick and Solly may have been run off their feet by the likes of Campbellm Thomas etc.

 

[yaco55]

In terms of big men... we have no one. So we are stuck with Pears and Daniher or Hurley.

What we have to do is add a bit more steel around them. Enter NLM. Exit stage left Quinn.

Why does everyone assume NLM takes a tall?

Possibly look at McVeigh in a Hodge type role if we get our midfield going with Watson, Lonergan, Winders and Lovett.

Kelvin

Why did Essendon lose to the Kangaroos ?

Because the Kangaroos played the game on their terms and Essendon couldn't play on their terms.

Opposition coaches know that NLM is vulnerable in the air ( to bigger or smaller players ) and will drag him back to the goalsquare.

A perfect example is the game in 2008 VS Richmond, when NLM had 7 goals kicked on him by players such as Brown, Morton.

You may have noticed a smaller and a key position type.

Richmond continually dragged NLM back to the goal square.

 

[stay true]

I'd hate to think what people would be saying if we were 0-4...

 

[resurrector]

why not throw lucas down back while he's struggling to kick goals? he's shown in the past that he can play back there, and he went pretty close to all australian CHB one year i'm pretty sure....i'm sure he could handle the bigger body types like fev or rocca or cam mooney

 

[marcuz]

10 years ago the Cats backline was:

Graham, Milburn, Stoneham, Sanderson, Sholl, McGrath

Graham, McGrath, Stoneham, Sanderson, Sholl all played in 2000.

Stoneham wasnt playing in defence in 2000. and mcgraths career was just about done by the end of 2000.

Between 2000 and 2001 they made 4 young and inexperienced players permanent fixtures.

The bolded line is surely a joke. If you actually analyse it.. it doesn't make sense. Lose with good kids but win with bad players. Hmmmm

Kids will improve, average players will always be average. You can use guys who are good enough to win you some games and you can eek out a 9th to 12th finish. or you can bite the bullet and play some guys who can lift you beyond mediocre. The last few years have shown that the current group of senior players arent good enough to lift us anymore.

 

[ant555]

In terms of big men... we have no one. So we are stuck with Pears and Daniher or Hurley.

What we have to do is add a bit more steel around them. Enter NLM. Exit stage left Quinn.

Why does everyone assume NLM takes a tall?

Possibly look at McVeigh in a Hodge type role if we get our midfield going with Watson, Lonergan, Winders and Lovett.

Ok come on hear and give me examples of the great games NLM has played in defence!
He has played about 15 good games and 60 ordianry ones.

Natrat does not make a toss of difference to yesterdays result.
How does having him in the side stop turnovers that expose our defenders to one on one contests ?

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Stoneham wasnt playing in defence in 2000. and mcgraths career was just about done by the end of 2000.

Between 2000 and 2001 they made 4 young and inexperienced players permanent fixtures.

They were all into their 3rd,4th,5th season by then. They were 20/21/22 and not 19 like our guys Pears, Daniher, Hurley, Quinn.

A year or two for KPP's is a hug difference and we are a year or two out for the right balance.

 

[Houli to Neagle]

I would play McPhee back there. That's where he played his best footy!

 

[ant555]

How does a player cost you the game these days anyway? It's pretty much nigh on impossible to single anyone out.

You did before the game. You said Quinn would cost us the game. You where wrong.

The question we need to ask is "Did the selection of Quinn make our team stronger" The answer is unequivocally no.

In your opinion. NLM could have played and pulled his usual zoning off trick and Campbell could have kicked 3 goals.
There is no way you can say we would have done any better with NLM in the side.

In a tight 12 point game with not many goals I would suggest that it could have played a large bearing on the result when we put out a weakened team due to selection experimentation.

Why do you keep on about selecting one player. Yes it is about looking towards the future but you seem to go on about it like we selected 4 players who where unproven. The fact is we had three changes and two of the ins where 100 plus game players.

Yes, but wasn't his job to provide run and carry as per what you said a few days ago. Knights game plan and all that.

Yes it is part of his job but defence comes first. Dempsey had the same problem. He also had an opponent that he had to look after.
Having not seen the game you can not comment on what Quinn did anyway.
He did not have a lot of the ball but he was available as an option a number of times. Some day the footy is not on your side of the ground a lot and you are playing on a small forward who can be dangerous.
If it was Tom German promoted of the rookie list and he kept Campbell to 4 possessions you would be saying what a great job he did as a small defender.

The reason thing go around in circles with you Kelvin is you never adress the questions people ask.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Ok come on hear and give me examples of the great games NLM has played in defence!
He has played about 15 good games and 60 ordianry ones.

Natrat does not make a toss of difference to yesterdays result.
How does having him in the side stop turnovers that expose our defenders to one on one contests ?

He completely shut out Dale Thomas last year in one game I remember and had a number of other good games.

He is a guy off the rookie list and in his 6th season at 26. Why can't he improve like any other player?

He is at the point where he should be playing his best footy, right age bracket and games. He deserves a game or two to show us that he can produce some of his better games more consistently.

He showed a lot of improvement in his 3rd year and was a pretty good player for us. He got injuries in 07 and didn't play that many and last year he was asked to do jobs beyond him due to injuries and Knights experimentation.

 

[ant555]

I would play McPhee back there. That's where he played his best footy!

So 2006, 2007 and parts of 2008 have been wiped from your memory.
McPhee was awfull as a defender.
He won AA selection playing half back flank and floating across the contest to take 10 to 15 marks a game.
Since then he has gone backwards. Hell he drops every second mark he goes for.
What you said is right in he played his best footy there but that is a distant memory. He has not shown that form for 5 years.
If you want dropped marks, poor decisons with the ball, u turns, continual kicking sideways and fumbles then go ahead and put McPhee in defence.

 

[Houli to Neagle]

So 2006, 2007 and parts of 2008 have been wiped from your memory.
McPhee was awfull as a defender.
He won AA selection playing half back flank and floating across the contest to take 10 to 15 marks a game.
Since then he has gone backwards. Hell he drops every second mark he goes for.
What you said is right in he played his best footy there but that is a distant memory. He has not shown that form for 5 years.
If you want dropped marks, poor decisons with the ball, u turns, continual kicking sideways and fumbles then go ahead and put McPhee in defence.

So we drop him then?
You are making out like he is our worst player?

 

[ant555]

So we drop him then?
You are making out like he is our worst player?

I am telling you how it is with him as a defender.
The proof is in the games he has played there in the last 3 or 4 years.
Don't put words in my mouth. If you read any thread about McPhee you would have seen that i have defended his spot in the side as a forward becasue we do not have anyone else who provides the work rate and presents as a target like he does.

If he could hold his marks he would be classed as a very good half forward becasue he never stops presenting and the position is not that complicated for him. He does not have to make too many decisions under pressure there.

The dropped marks and fumbles really hurt us but until Neagle or Gumby are in a position to play better than him then no you do not drop him.

The simple fact is you can not use hi AA form in any discussion of him being a defender in 2009 becasue he has never recaptured that form and he spent a two years stint through 2006 and 2007 ( plus parts of 2008) in defence and he was ordinary there.

James Hird commented on McPhee last night on Fox . He said he is a player that has not lived up to his potential he showed in 2004.
He said he plays his best footy when he does not have to think about the game too much and can play a free flowing game. When the comment was made that todays footy involves a lot of thinking about what you are doing Hirdy replied "well he is going to be in a lot of trouble "

 

[Kong]

I remember either Merv or Ant555 mentioned a downside to being Mod was that you have to read every thread and post, even if you really don't want to. I now understand that pain .

 

[ant555]

He completely shut out Dale Thomas last year in one game I remember and had a number of other good games.

Well seems you mentioned it lets look at last year. He played 20 games last year and he really only did well in 6 of them. Are you saying that it is acceptable for a player who has played 85 games to only perform in around 20% of them.
He went into last year with a solid pre season , 65 games experience behind him.

He is a guy off the rookie list and in his 6th season at 26. Why can't he improve like any other player?

So you have different standards for different players.
Dyson a late pick in the draft in his 6th season is a total waste of space and can not improve yet NLM who has played more games can ?
And no i am not suggesting that Dyson is any good.

He is at the point where he should be playing his best footy, right age bracket and games. He deserves a game or two to show us that he can produce some of his better games more consistently.

You know what, yes he is. He was ready last year. Had 65 games under his belt. Got through a good pre season after having a groin opperation mid 2007 and had shown some form in the last 5 games of that year.
Then he comes out last year and plays 20 games with 14 or 15 of them being nothing special. Is that the road you want us to keep going down. Playing guys who are nothing special so we can win the odd close game during the year.

He showed a lot of improvement in his 3rd year and was a pretty good player for us. He got injuries in 07 and didn't play that many and last year he was asked to do jobs beyond him due to injuries and Knights experimentation

Did he not play half back most of last year ?
Was it not your suggestion he play half back in place of Quinn ?

I doubt i would pick Quinn this week becasue Anzac Day is a different sort of game. NLM may well get the nod but that does not change the fact that the result of last weeks game was not affected in any way by the selection of Quinn in front of NLM.

 

[ant555]

I remember either Merv or Ant555 mentioned a downside to being Mod was that you have to read every thread and post, even if you really don't want to. I now understand that pain .

Yep one part of being a mod i don't miss.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Well seems you mentioned it lets look at last year. He played 20 games last year and he really only did well in 6 of them. Are you saying that it is acceptable for a player who has played 85 games to only perform in around 20% of them.
He went into last year with a solid pre season , 65 games experience behind him.

He was played out of position a fair bit and most of his bad games were when our side was terrible and the midfield was getting smashed. The defence had no chance. Slattery got mauled just as much if not more than him.

His 20% is already better than Quinns 0% or do we just forgot about Quinns mistakes?

He's played his best footy as a running defender and forward.

He played 19 odd games in 06 averaging 19 possessions as a running defender.

So you have different standards for different players.
Dyson a late pick in the draft in his 6th season is a total waste of space and can not improve yet NLM who has played more games can ?
And no i am not suggesting that Dyson is any good.

No. NLM to Dyson's good games are about 4-1... and I'm being generous there.

You know what, yes he is. He was ready last year. Had 65 games under his belt. Got through a good pre season after having a groin opperation mid 2007 and had shown some form in the last 5 games of that year.
Then he comes out last year and plays 20 games with 14 or 15 of them being nothing special. Is that the road you want us to keep going down. Playing guys who are nothing special so we can win the odd close game during the year.

How can you take anything away from last year when we had so many injuries and the defence was crucified. He got asked to do too many jobs and it was unfair on him - Reiwoldt is one I remember.

Did he not play half back most of last year ?
Was it not your suggestion he play half back in place of Quinn ?

He played on the third tall and at times he played on the tall. He was not used as a running defender but more a negating one.

I doubt i would pick Quinn this week becasue Anzac Day is a different sort of game. NLM may well get the nod but that does not change the fact that the result of last weeks game was not affected in any way by the selection of Quinn in front of NLM.

In a close game I reckon it might have been the difference. He kicked 4 last year and if we swung him forward he might have done something. Only place you could swing Quinn was onto the bench.

 

[ant555]

Well you keep pumping up the tyres of a player that has had his chance KS.
Quinn will more than likely go back to Bendigo at some stage now he has had some exposure to AFL level but he did not cost us the game.

If you think the future is in NLM then good for you. If we go down that road ,waiting for an 26 year old with 85 games under his belt to improve then we may be a premiership chance in about 2020.