Pagan ..

[4blues]

Wow the pagan threads are getting more and more frequent, STOP flogging a dead horse.

 

[BlueFeaver]

My belief is that some of the players fear him and as such don't take in what he is trying to get across. I believe Denis has a great deal of passion for Carlton but projects alot of stress onto his players.

I believe he puts them under a dependancy pressure. It is like a parent who is wanting validation through how his kids act. Whilst the parent may love his kids the pressure he puts on them to perform in a certain way forces the kids to freeze or react negativly.

Carlton plays without much instinct and freedom. They are a very nervous side. Perhaps this is what Kout'a bother is referring to. If it is then I believe the answer is not to get rid of Denis but for the players to communicate with him about the way they are feeling about him.

Pumped, do you think it may be time to try some new assistants?
I have often thought we don't have a attacking and confident coach of any description on our panel. Liba was a very smart player but was essentially a tagger and Pagan played back pocket. Someone with a fresh perspective might invegerate the panel, I don't think Barry Mitchell will be the man for this position at this time. I feel as though Dennis may feel threatened by Barry's relationship with the players. A player that may be of interest is Wayne Schwass, he seems to be very intellegent, footy smart and a excellent communicator.
The club also needs to look at other support personnel, especially areas of player developement, skills, player councelling and physical conditioning. These are all other departments that we are defiecent.

 

[pumped]

Pumped, do you think it may be time to try some new assistants?
I have often thought we don't have a attacking and confident coach of any description on our panel. Liba was a very smart player but was essentially a tagger and Pagan played back pocket. Someone with a fresh perspective might invegerate the panel, I don't think Barry Mitchell will be the man for this position at this time. I feel as though Dennis may feel threatened by Barry's relationship with the players. A player that may be of interest is Wayne Schwass, he seems to be very intellegent, footy smart and a excellent communicator.
The club also needs to look at other support personnel, especially areas of player developement, skills, player councelling and physical conditioning. These are all other departments that we are defiecent.

Hi Bluefeaver,

I definitly think we need at least one or two new assistants. Not a fan of Schwass though for this position. I don't think he has the personality or emotional strength to compliment Denis. Also agree that Mitch is not the man either. Not sure who would but perhaps Deisel if he could be convinced to return. Other than him I am not sure. The best option I feel would be to appoint someone as a personal mentor for Denis. Not necessarily a football person although this would be an advantage. More a life coach type ...someone who could slow Denis down and get him to go deep into his own undoubted wisdom. I know some will bag me for this but I see Eade, Roos, Worstfold and Craig as being far more self aware than Denis.

 

[BlueFeaver]

Hi Bluefeaver,

I definitly think we need at least one or two new assistants. Not a fan of Schwass though for this position. I don't think he has the personality or emotional strength to compliment Denis. Also agree that Mitch is not the man either. Not sure who would but perhaps Deisel if he could be convinced to return. Other than him I am not sure. The best option I feel would be to appoint someone as a personal mentor for Denis. Not necessarily a football person although this would be an advantage. More a life coach type ...someone who could slow Denis down and get him to go deep into his own undoubted wisdom. I know some will bag me for this but I see Eade, Roos, Worstfold and Craig as being far more self aware than Denis.

As painful as it is maybe SOS is the man for the job, he has a infectous personality and serious commitment to the club. I would put Craig Bradly before Diesel, he seems a little more approachable.
Maybe for that mentor role someone completely out of left field, who has no coaching aspirations but could work on a consulting basis only. He also wouldn't make Dennis feel threatened which would be likely if the selection wasn't correct. I know it's crazy, but Melcolm Blight would be perfect for this role. Dennis would know better than anyone that he doesn't want to coach and Melcolm is renound for his left of centre ideas.

 

[RiCHii]

by the way audus i never said he was a teacher at my school i said he is a STUDENT teacher at my school .. just to let you know that means he will only be teaching for about 2-3 weeks .. if u dont believe me hes name is christian and he is at Thomastown Secondary College comeon down and take a look for urself mate

 

[pumped]

As painful as it is maybe SOS is the man for the job, he has a infectous personality and serious commitment to the club. I would put Craig Bradly before Diesel, he seems a little more approachable.
Maybe for that mentor role someone completely out of left field, who has no coaching aspirations but could work on a consulting basis only. He also wouldn't make Dennis feel threatened which would be likely if the selection wasn't correct. I know it's crazy, but Melcolm Blight would be perfect for this role. Dennis would know better than anyone that he doesn't want to coach and Melcolm is renound for his left of centre ideas.

Yes perhaps Blight could be ok now that he is out of the coaching game. Some of his comments do seem refreshing.

I mentioned Diesel over Braddles as he seems to be a more confident person. More definitive in what he believes. Sos was an awesome footballer and does seem to be pretty switched on with his footy knowledge.Not 100% on his personality but you never know.

 

[audas]

by the way audus i never said he was a teacher at my school i said he is a STUDENT teacher at my school .. just to let you know that means he will only be teaching for about 2-3 weeks .. if u dont believe me hes name is christian and he is at Thomastown Secondary College comeon down and take a look for urself mate

Oh I beleive you mate dont worry about that. Its the relevance and the context of how things are being represented which is of concern.

 

[audas]

Hi again Audas,

You really seem to be in an angry mood today. Speaking for myself you have no idea at all who or what I know. Some commnets are based on what I feel others based on what I know. Having said this I do not feel any need to quote people I have spoken when commenting on this forum.

Once again who are you to be so 100% sure of everything you write? You seem to be compeditive with anyone who writes something that you don't agree with.

I have never represented my self as being 100% and I am not competitive with thos who disagree with me so STOP misrepresenting what I say. This misrepresentation of what people say is EXACTLY what I am trying to say is an unreasonable thing to do. Address what is being said, not what you wish was said.

I am stating universalities pumped. If someone comes onto this board and says "kouta admitted to being a gay sheep humping rapist" but is not true then I feel I completely within my bounds to question that person, their sources and the reliability of the comment. If it turns out the person was in fact saying I THINK kouta is a gay sheep humping rapist then my enquiries are entirely justified. I dont think it requires much brain power to figure this distinction out pumped..... now does it.

And this is EXACTLY what has been going on on this board. Kouta NEVER said that there was a rift at the blues and there has been inuendo that he has. what has been said is some kid said that his teacher said, that he spoke to the brother of kouta and he said something or other along the lines of "they will be better if they got rid of pagan". It was then inferred by the same person that if the captain thinks this then what does the rest of theam think. Virtually leading to the situation where the whole team thinks they would be better of without Pagan. Its a total joke pumped and deserves to be pointed out.

 

[BlueBelle]

And Bluegal1983 I think a bit of research on these forums will reveal just how vociferous I am on the right to freedom of expression. But having said that Id like to point out NOWHERE in this post did I even HINT at surpressing peoples right to their opinion. In fact your post has completely misrepresented my comments and subsequently reeks of hypocracy. Further to this I have been askig people to stop misrepresnting their opinions as fact as has now been done three times in this thread, four including your erroneous contribution regarding my comments.

Oh yeah, so how come you said this??

Glad to see people are just making sh1t up still. People dont know squat and are talking drivel out of their rectums. All of this over some bloke who knows some bloke, who is some blokes brother.........but hey guys never let reality get in the way of your slanderous ways.

If you are so hell bent on freedom of speech, why even comment???

Oh and by the way, I will mention this again (as I have done in another thread) but, how come you can have an opinion about someone's post but when somebody comments about yours, all of a sudden it's erroneous??

 

[mediumsizered]

As painful as it is maybe SOS is the man for the job, he has a infectous personality and serious commitment to the club. I would put Craig Bradly before Diesel, he seems a little more approachable.
Maybe for that mentor role someone completely out of left field, who has no coaching aspirations but could work on a consulting basis only. He also wouldn't make Dennis feel threatened which would be likely if the selection wasn't correct. I know it's crazy, but Melcolm Blight would be perfect for this role. Dennis would know better than anyone that he doesn't want to coach and Melcolm is renound for his left of centre ideas.

It is a damn shame that the 'Aints burned Blight off AFL coaching, because I would have loved to have had him coach Carlton. The man knows more about football than just about anyone involved in the game. Nowadays I think you will find he is very happy with his life in North Qld with the occasional commute to commentate on Channel 10.

 

[audas]

Oh yeah, so how come you said this??



If you are so hell bent on freedom of speech, why even comment???

Oh and by the way, I will mention this again (as I have done in another thread) but, how come you can have an opinion about someone's post but when somebody comments about yours, all of a sudden it's erroneous??

Are you total trollop ? How moronic can you get ? Where in my statement did I say people arent allowed to comment ? WHERE ?

My point was that people shouldnt MAKE STUFF UP !!!

Some attempt at staying on topic bluegal, its realy frustrating having to continuosly point out the bleeding obvious to people.

 

[Effes]

Pumped, do you think it may be time to try some new assistants?
I have often thought we don't have a attacking and confident coach of any description on our panel. Liba was a very smart player but was essentially a tagger and Pagan played back pocket. Someone with a fresh perspective might invegerate the panel, I don't think Barry Mitchell will be the man for this position at this time. I feel as though Dennis may feel threatened by Barry's relationship with the players. A player that may be of interest is Wayne Schwass, he seems to be very intellegent, footy smart and a excellent communicator.
The club also needs to look at other support personnel, especially areas of player developement, skills, player councelling and physical conditioning. These are all other departments that we are defiecent.

What good will new assistants do?

They have no input in the coaches box during the games

Have a look at barry mitchell - he just stands there and does nothing cos DP and Elshaugh run the show

 

[mike ockerts]

What good will new assistants

They have no input in the coaches box during the games

Have a look at barry mitchell - he just stands there and does nothing cos DP and Elshaugh run the show

you really dont like the man do you

 

[Effes]

you really dont like the man do you

Nothing to do with not liking the man

I want my club to be making progress - they haven't made any under DP!

 

[jj1978]

Nothing to do with not liking the man

I want my club to be making progress - they haven't made any under DP!

With DP it's a tough one!

You can look at it from your angle, and agreed by ladder position, improvement, games won it's been bad.

You can look at it from what players we had when he started the job and whom we have now and you can go... more potential now and in the future if the boys play to their full ability.

If in 2-3 years time we are back in the 8 and the ultimate success is close we can't deny we will thank Pagan immensely. If we are still in the dumps then, then I would have to reflect a little differently on DP performance as coach.

For now, when he tells us he is looking after the future of the club and getting this squad ready to be a power again, I can forgive him and give him a bit of leeway to see if he can talk the talk and walk the walk.

I and every supporter would hope that he succeeds, and we have to back his vision, cos we can't just chop/change our current plan in an attempt to try to shake a few more wins.

Richmond is a team that continuously chopped/changed plans and visions over the years, and now like Hawthorn they've set an N Year plan and will try not to divert from it.

We have our N Year plan and we have to not divert from it and see if it brings stability back to the club and success.

We can suspect that plan probably would have said year 1-4 would be tough and we would be in the bottom part of the 8 during that period.

Then;

Year 5+ we will be back in the top 8 heading to a bite at the GF 2+ years after that.

We have to stick with DP for the rest of his contract. If in the middle of 2008 we still aren't performing he may walk on his own accord. Since his N year plan is just not coming to frution.

Lets just cross our fingers and hope he succeeds in his plans for our team.

 

[Effes]

The thing is though that he did have a choice when he decided to pick up so many retreads in the 2003 draft. We only took one rookie in that national draft - andrew walker.

Others available included Shane Tuck, Michael Rischitteli, Sam Fisher

Richmond are at least playing the kids; look at how many youngsters have debuted under Wallace.

Why not play Ryan Jackson or Jesse Smith? Smith will be either delisted or elevated at the end of the year. Give the guy an opportunity

Surely he couldn't be worse than Corey McGrath.

What do we have to lose?

 

[Silvagnis]

The thing is though that he did have a choice when he decided to pick up so many retreads in the 2003 draft. We only took one rookie in that national draft - andrew walker.

Others available included Shane Tuck, Michael Rischitteli, Sam Fisher

Richmond are at least playing the kids; look at how many youngsters have debuted under Wallace.

Why not play Ryan Jackson or Jesse Smith? Smith will be either delisted or elevated at the end of the year. Give the guy an opportunity

Surely he couldn't be worse than Corey McGrath.

What do we have to lose?

Just a PP.

 

[Effes]

Doubt we will win any more games

Look at how DP lost the game against Richmond earlier this season

Lance was dominating up forward and DP puts him back on RIcho - who still takes 14 marks after Lance was moved onto him. Great move

Think back to round 1 2005. Our forward line was flooded with North players - what did pagan say after the game; "they studied us very closely and we couldn't kick any goals" - what about plan B? We let them have 8 defenders for the entire game! We gave our forwards no chance.

 

[BlueFeaver]

I've said it before anf I'll say it again, Dennis Pagan will not see success at Carlton. I'm not saying to sack him now, as I think he is one of the few with the strength to pull us through. Dennis will finish his contract and will be replaced with a younger senior coach, this will be the coach that will see success.
At the moment if we replaced Dennis we would not get anyone close to his ability or standing and this would in turn place more pressure on the club and the players. At the moment we would not attract a great coach as I think a potential coach would look at the list compared to others and refrain from taking our position. In two years time that will be different scenario, as I think we will by then have one of the youngest and most talented lists in the league, with a good spread of talent and depth across every position.

 

[as0l0]

I've said it before anf I'll say it again, Dennis Pagan will not see success at Carlton. I'm not saying to sack him now, as I think he is one of the few with the strength to pull us through. Dennis will finish his contract and will be replaced with a younger senior coach, this will be the coach that will see success.
At the moment if we replaced Dennis we would not get anyone close to his ability or standing and this would in turn place more pressure on the club and the players. At the moment we would not attract a great coach as I think a potential coach would look at the list compared to others and refrain from taking our position. In two years time that will be different scenario, as I think we will by then have one of the youngest and most talented lists in the league, with a good spread of talent and depth across every position.

and then everyone will say 'told you so','why did we persist....' and not realise that Pagan set us up for future success.

Although I do think there is some chance he will continue and get a new contract after next year.

 

[Effes]

"Pagan set us up for future success"

lol

You mean our **** performances enabled us to get elite talent in the draft.