Peter Gordon explores Swiss appeal and injunction on suspension

[Lifetime ban]

Interesting read. However the anti doping code would never work at all if we practiced it in the way he'd want us too. Cheats would easily outsmart the system.

He fails to address the main problem the players had. They failed miserably in following the simple rules spelt out to them in no uncertain terms. After receiving injections they'd never had before, they could not verify what was in those injections. They never checked, never documented and never did what they've been lectured to do on countless occasions. So, even if they truly didn't know they were possibly administered banned drugs, they have to cop a punishment because of their stupidity.

If I inject a drug into a patient with good intentions but never check what it is that I gave and it leads to a poor outcome, I could lose my job. An investigation would show that I acted in an unprofessional manner. I cannot argue my case because I simply did the wrong thing, even if I had no harmful intent in my actions. I should know the basic rules of my job, just like the players should know the basic rules of drug taking.

But do all your patients KNOW the exact contents of the injection, other than what you tell them it is?

 

[mxett]

You really do keep on grasping.

Would you like to read a few academic papers on AOD (written after 2012), the records of it having been seized at various borders as a illegal drug (e.g. in Europe), the resources employed to evaluate what risks are entailed in using it, and the efforts being put into trying to test for its misuse?

It's interesting reading, and not a whole lot of deviation from the portents described by the bloke who ran most of the clinical trials.

To sum it up - bugger all upside, but a whole lot of potentially serious downside, particularly when stacked.

And, still people continue with 'nah, nah, we got away with it'.

Well, congratulations to all.

The farce continues to mount.

what did that rant have to do with my post?

 

[Doss]

I used the word ashamed, I think you may have given it a certain meaning in your mind. Its not about what I have decided ashamed should be. Ashamed is defined as a word, I gave it no narrow interpretation. But it looks like something in your conscience has been pricked - and that has caused a reaction.

I find it hard to understand that someone as seemingly invested in the club as you are (BF Mod, EFC fan/member, lover of Footy etc. ) does not find some personal shame as a reflection of the clubs behaviour and how they have handled this whole situation.

I would be ashamed of Geelong if they had been EFC over the last few years. Because as humans we naturally feel joy when those are invested in succeed; but we also feel sadness when they fail; and we feel shame when they flounder ethically.

It is natural to feel some shame. But it is sad not to admit it and show some contrition as a result.

No it's not. I don't feel any shame personally. I am not the club as a fan. It is not a hard concept to understand.

Spare me with my conscience being pricked. You seem determined to apply your view of what constitutes morals or whatever else on everyone and moreover, to speak down to anyone who doesn't agree with it.

I don't have to be contrite about anything. Essendon stuffed up. They almost certainly went too far in the quest for advantage. Essendon the club should feel contrition.

Me as a fan? Meaningless. I didn't have anything to do with the decisions Essendon made in 2011. You seem determined to measure people, or in this case, Essendon fans by this concept that they must be contrite. What does contrite even mean here? I know Essendon stuffed up. I don't deny it. I wish we'd not gone down that path. If you want to continue to take the moral high ground about lack of contrition on a personal level, then I'm pretty comfortable in saying you're the one with a problem, not me.

Out of interest, have you let the club know how you feel about the whole disgrace?

Sure I did.

It also makes nary a difference. imperial_oz articulated this last week quite well.

 

[sherb]

most bomber fans wouldnt give a cocky blues supporter the pleasure

It's not about giving anyone "pleasure". I'd have far more respect for someone like you if you finally grew a set over this whole disaster.

It's about being pissed off enough with what your club has done to have the gonads to publicly express same.

All I have ever seen from Essendon supporters is apologists, blame shifters and deflectors.

As I have said before, the problem with most football supporters is that they simply can't bring themselves to go on a forum like this and berate their club and their heroes. "Blind defence" mode sinks in.

And we are still seeing it across the board with the Dons fans. Which is pretty sad after all they have been put through.

 

[CharacterFirst]

I've seen very little of that from anyone involved with Essendon.

That's kind of my point of course, as you know.

Its not a popular one for most people, as it means admitting some guilt - even if only by association.

And we live in a society that is allergic to accountability - esp. personal moral and ethical accountability. The West is very liberal and individualistic - when it suits us. Of course we will happily call ourselves all thing Red and Black (or blue and white hoops) when we share in the reflected glory of a flag or some such.

Human ego is very, very strong - and we are loathed to admit failings and repent on any issue. Contrition, forgiveness, repentance - they are offensive in the extreme to human pride. And so we rile against those virtues.

 

[CharacterFirst]

No it's not. I don't feel any shame personally. I am not the club as a fan. It is not a hard concept to understand.

Spare me with my conscience being pricked. You seem determined to apply your view of what constitutes morals or whatever else on everyone and moreover, to speak down to anyone who doesn't agree with it.

I don't have to be contrite about anything. Essendon stuffed up. They almost certainly went too far in the quest for advantage. Essendon the club should feel contrition.

Me as a fan? Meaningless. I didn't have anything to do with the decisions Essendon made in 2011. You seem determined to measure people, or in this case, Essendon fans by this concept that they must be contrite. What does contrite even mean here? I know Essendon stuffed up. I don't deny it. I wish we'd not gone down that path. If you want to continue to take the moral high ground about lack of contrition on a personal level, then I'm pretty comfortable in saying you're the one with a problem, not me.

Sure I did.

It also makes nary a difference. imperial_oz articulated this last week quite well.

Mmmmm.

Will you share in the reflected glory of your clubs next big win. I don't buy it Doss.

It looks like being part of it when it suits me/us?

 

[mxett]

It's not about giving anyone "pleasure". I'd have far more respect for someone like you if you finally grew a set over this whole disaster.

It's about being pissed off enough with what your club has done to have the gonads to publicly express same.

All I have ever seen from Essendon supporters is apologists, blame shifters and deflectors.

As I have said before, the problem with most football supporters is that they simply can't bring themselves to go on a forum like this and berate their club and their heroes. "Blind defence" mode sinks in.

And we are still seeing it across the board with the Dons fans. Which is pretty sad after all they have been put through.

ive expressed plenty of anger at my club, but little of it on the HTB. Why would any essendon supporter come on here to open up about their displeasure when much of the responses are trolling or even pleasure that the club is going through this saga? Not exactly an environment for open converstaions

 

[sherb]

Sure I did.

It also makes nary a difference. imperial_oz articulated this last week quite well.

I didn't say it had to make a difference.

It's about you standing up for what you believe in.

No different in some respects to writing to a politician.

If I don't take a stand, then I can't see how I have much right to complain.

Not taking a stand because you think it is useless, well that is selling yourself short.

So well done. You told them what you think. As a member, you have a right to be heard.

 

[hairy biker]

Swiss Appeal is a good name for a racehorse. Apart from that, I have little to add to the topic, whatever that may now be.

http://www.swissappeal.com/

Motto; Choose the company you can trust

 

[Proper Gander]

This has officially gone pear-shaped.

Hope I didn't give a push in that direction.

 

[Doss]

All I have ever seen from Essendon supporters is apologists, blame shifters and deflectors..

'ever'?

Sherb. You're a smart guy. Why the needless application of mayo?

I know we stuffed up. I know we went too far in a quest for success.

Plenty of other Essendon fans think that too, believe it or not. See what mxett said above about why you might not see it as much here.. At what point do you say "okay, a lot of them do realise that, maybe they're still trying to make sense of the minutae. Doesn't mean they're deflecting on everything or even most things".

At some point you have to ask yourself whether you are maintaining the rage at something that started to lessen as a broad truth quite some time ago. Not just you, a lot of people.

Mmmmm.

Will you share in the reflected glory of your clubs next big win. I don't buy it Doss.

It looks like being part of it when it suits me/us?

Well that's just disingenuous. Of course I'm happy after a win.

And of course I'm disappointed after a loss. Or disappointed after my club lands itself in the excrement.

Ashamed after a loss? No. It's just footbal. Ashamed after this? No, it's just football. Other things are more important.

 

[sherb]

ive expressed plenty of anger at my club, but little of it on the HTB. Why would any essendon supporter come on here to open up about their displeasure when much of the responses are trolling or even pleasure that the club is going through this saga? Not exactly an environment for open converstaions

Why not? It would actually present yourself as a person of integrity, rather than a PR man.

You've been arguing with people here for 3 years. You've become a parody of yourself.

You could have avoided all that (assuming you wanted to of course), by letting fly at the club with your true feelings early on.

I am more than happy to bag the shit out of my club if it deserves it. If they indulge in what Essendon has, I would let them have it. Both publicly and privately.

If that's how you feel, why wouldn't you? It's a matter of expressing your true feelings.

Why the necessity to defend the "honour" of your club and its associates when they have stuffed up? That's the problem with a place like this, all a club's supporters go into "I must defend them at all costs in front of the infidels" mode in a situation like this.

I'd rather you said what you really feel. I for one would respect you for that.

 

[DapperJong]

Oh for heavens sake. I am just talking about behaviour displayed in here. I wouldn't for one minute presume to know what any of you are like in your real lives away from here. Pretty sure I'd be happy to have a drink with most of you.

**** yeah let's get pissed

 

[Doss]

A lot of people have been arguing here, non-stop, for three years sherb.

Posting a lot doesn't mean endless deflection. I know for a fact mxett called for Hird's head years ago on the Essendon board and has been consistent in that ever since.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

No it's not. I don't feel any shame personally. I am not the club as a fan. It is not a hard concept to understand.

Spare me with my conscience being pricked. You seem determined to apply your view of what constitutes morals or whatever else on everyone and moreover, to speak down to anyone who doesn't agree with it.

I don't have to be contrite about anything. Essendon stuffed up. They almost certainly went too far in the quest for advantage. Essendon the club should feel contrition.

Me as a fan? Meaningless. I didn't have anything to do with the decisions Essendon made in 2011. You seem determined to measure people, or in this case, Essendon fans by this concept that they must be contrite. What does contrite even mean here? I know Essendon stuffed up. I don't deny it. I wish we'd not gone down that path. If you want to continue to take the moral high ground about lack of contrition on a personal level, then I'm pretty comfortable in saying you're the one with a problem, not me.

Sure I did.

It also makes nary a difference. imperial_oz articulated this last week quite well.

?

Do you feel pride as a supporter when the club wins?

 

[Doss]

?

Do you feel pride as a supporter when the club wins?

I feel very happy, like any other supporter.

It's not the be all and end all in life, though.

 

[sherb]

'ever'?

Sherb. You're a smart guy. Why the needless application of mayo?

I know we stuffed up. I know we went too far in a quest for success.

Plenty of other Essendon fans think that too, believe it or not. See what mxett said above about why you might not see it as much here.. At what point do you say "okay, a lot of them do realise that, maybe they're still trying to make sense of the minutae. Doesn't mean they're deflecting on everything or even most things".

At some point you have to ask yourself whether you are maintaining the rage at something that started to lessen as a broad truth quite some time ago. Not just you, a lot of people.

Yes, I am bright enough. I don't know what that assessment has to do with anything.

"Ever?". Absolutely.

And I reiterate my point to mxey, the problem here is that Dons supporters are too interested in saving face and defending their club rather than actually expressing their true feelings.

If that's the case, what's the point of taking an Essendon supporter seriously if they are going to post one thing here and "how they truly feel" elsewhere?

And as for "maintaining the rage" mate. I am actually really pissed off at the whole episode for what it is doing to the game.

So I will maintain said rage for as long as I like.

 

[DonsRule]

This has officially gone pear-shaped.

Hope I didn't give a push in that direction.

Yes? It's all your fault PG. we have been successful in brainwashing you into the Easendon cult you can no longer make an informed decision.

 

[Doss]

Yeah well, suit yourself sherb. I tried.

 

[sherb]

A lot of people have been arguing here, non-stop, for three years sherb.

Posting a lot doesn't mean endless deflection. I know for a fact mxett called for Hird's head years ago on the Essendon board and has been consistent in that ever since.

Well, I don't go to the Essendon board because I can't post in the thread there.

Has mxey been calling for Hird's head here on the HTB?

 

[mxett]

Why not? It would actually present yourself as a person of integrity, rather than a PR man.

You've been arguing with people here for 3 years. You've become a parody of yourself.

You could have avoided all that (assuming you wanted to of course), by letting fly at the club with your true feelings early on.

I am more than happy to bag the shit out of my club if it deserves it. If they indulge in what Essendon has, I would let them have it. Both publicly and privately.

If that's how you feel, why wouldn't you? It's a matter of expressing your true feelings.

Why the necessity to defend the "honour" of your club and its associates when they have stuffed up? That's the problem with a place like this, all a club's supporters go into "I must defend them at all costs in front of the infidels" mode in a situation like this.

I'd rather you said what you really feel. I for one would respect you for that.

yeah I feel really angry and dissapointed at the club, as most essendon fans probably do. However I also dont agree with the extremist views of many on the HTB who want essendon either deregistered, or punished into extinction. I disagree with those who claim Hird was a drug cheat his whole career, who believe the players were in on everything, and the club set out from day 1 to cheat. I acknowledge they messed up horrendously but these views I cannot agree with. This is the reason I defend the club on here. You and others obviously feel I am defending all of the club's behaviours, which is simply untrue.

 

[sherb]

Yeah well, suit yourself sherb. I tried.

Actually, you didn't try too hard with that response.

 

[CharacterFirst]

'ever'?

Sherb. You're a smart guy. Why the needless application of mayo?

I know we stuffed up. I know we went too far in a quest for success.

Plenty of other Essendon fans think that too, believe it or not. See what mxett said above about why you might not see it as much here.. At what point do you say "okay, a lot of them do realise that, maybe they're still trying to make sense of the minutae. Doesn't mean they're deflecting on everything or even most things".

At some point you have to ask yourself whether you are maintaining the rage at something that started to lessen as a broad truth quite some time ago. Not just you, a lot of people.

Well that's just disingenuous. Of course I'm happy after a win.

And of course I'm disappointed after a loss. Or disappointed after my club lands itself in the excrement.

Ashamed after a loss? No. It's just footbal. Ashamed after this? No, it's just football. Other things are more important.

I'll leave it at this - I think its you being disingenuous on this point.

"It's just footy" is disingenuous as well. This goes way beyond a kick-to-kick in the park. And you know it.

Sleep well. You have been pretty fair and balanced in all this, and done a good job as a Mod also. I have nothing against you personally.

 

[mxett]

Has mxey been calling for Hird's head here on the HTB?

I have on occasion, yes. But Im not sure you understand what its like to support a club that is mercilessly attacked on a forum, some of which is trolling or exaggeration.

 

[andrewb]

Now that sounds like you feel some shame.

Its OK to admit it - in fact it is very healthy and very courageous.

You are also showing contrition.

But it was more than just a poorly run power club, wasn't it? There is more for EFC and its fans to come to terms with. It was organised, and deceitful, and there has been a wealth of lies and misinformation - even to players.

That said, I think this is stepping up. I applaud you andrewb, even though I disagree with many things you post re the scandal.

Forensic examination has failed to reveal any greater truth than people at the club trusted that Dank and Robinson knew more about the WADA code than anyone else. I applaud the club for pushing the limits, I am massively disappointed in the club for failing to understand the risks.

We are not the only club he duped and we wouldn't have been the last. It is a performance industry and unless the league controls things then people will always push the limits.

The club was too naive to see that the WADA code is one grey area that you don't want to explore.